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[AutumnWitch]

AlanC9 wrote...

AutumnWitch wrote...
“The Ends Do NOT Always Justify The Means” - Don’t keep us from being successful for making choices true to our character. In DA2 if you play Hawke as a “good” person, she/he often must make choices that he/she might not really want to because in the end everything works out. But clearly there are several choices that occur with Isabela that a good character would never make (if we play true to our character) and therefore Isabela leaves and becomes unavailable. That in itself is perfectly reasonable but what is not reasonable is that because of her leaving we are prohibited from being able to get a crafting resource that is needed for one of the best treasures in the game. (Due to losing one of her quests.) So what people end up doing is making a choice completely at odds with how their Hawke would really act. So it defeats the whole concept of RPG. It becomes about making choices solely based on nothing more than just doing it so we can get that resource and it really takes the “fun and flavour” out of the game. And also, in this example, it’s Act 3 and Hawke is very wealthy, influential and between her and Varric they would have so many avenues that they could use to find the recourse it completely unreasonable to think that they wouldn’t be able to get it another way even if they had to pay a lot for it.  This is so annoying so pretty, pretty please don’t do this again?

So the whole concept of RPG is being able to do whatever you want without anything having consequences for anything else?

No I totally agree that in this case it makes sense that Isabela leaves BUT all I am saying it that because that make it so that you can only get that resource by having to include her quest, players end up just doing that quest for the sake of getting the item and not because it matters to their game play.

In other words they stop role playing and make the choice to keep Isabela not because they want to have her but just because that want that material object.. If we were really role playing we would not make that choice but as a "player" (as oppsoed to character) we know we have to make that choice to get the item regardless of if our character would actually do. So its no longer about role playing because in reality our character would NOT make that choice.

[Maria Caliban]

AutumnWitch wrote...


But clearly there are several choices that occur with Isabela that a good character would never make (if we play true to our character) and therefore Isabela leaves and becomes unavailable.

I play sickeningly good characters and have never had a problem keeping Isabela. If anything, I found the rivalry track far more satisfying than the friendship one.

That in itself is perfectly reasonable but what is not reasonable is that because of her leaving we are prohibited from being able to get a crafting resource that is needed for one of the best treasures in the game.

That's reasonable. Actions have all sorts of consequences. If anything, we should see more of this, not less.

So what people end up doing is making a choice completely at odds with how their Hawke would really act. So it defeats the whole concept of RPG.

You're correct. Metagaming can take away from RPing. The answer to this is to put on your big girl pants and decide whether you want to RP or not. If you want to act wildly out of character and make decisions based on things your PC couldn't possibly know, that's your choice. No one is forcing you to do it.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 17 juillet 2013 - 09:26 .

[bEVEsthda]

Every game is a whole.
What matters is if the whole is interesting and worth your time.
The details, by themselves, do not matter.
Let's see what the game we'll be offered is all about.

At this time, I'm not motivated to fret about details.
I used to be. After DA2, it was important to me that BW didn't do another DA2.
Unfortunately, I have the a small suspicion that they might have. But that is no longer of any interest.
The game design is probably pretty set by now, and what will be, will be.
And whatever it is, it deserves to be judged on it's own merits, not for similarities or dissimilarities whith earlier games, nor for what things it may lack.

[dragondreamer]

I thought this was an excellent list.

But as I've pointed out on another topic, there *were* female-only robes for Hawke in DA2. She could also wear robes identical to Bethany's.

[AutumnWitch]

"You're correct. Metagaming can take away from RPing. The answer to this
is to put on your big girl pants and decide whether you want to RP or
not. If you want to act wildly out of character and make decisions based
on things your PC couldn't possibly know, that's your choice. No one is
forcing you to do it."

I agree but in this circumstance "the carrot" you are losing by making the "right" decision is one of the best treasures in the game. And like I said all things being equal at that point in the game its unreasonable to think that Hawke wouldn't have othere avenues to go to get the resource. Certainly I have played the game both ways but it seems "cheap" to me by not giving us a different option for a bloody crafting resource. But its neither here not there as its just wishful thinking on our part anyway.

[Mr.House]

Good C&C.

[Maria Caliban]

Swoopdogg wrote...

The point of dark fantasy isn't to be depressing. It's to show that there can be a light found in dark situations.

The works that fall under the label 'dark fantasy' range in meaning. They do not have a singular 'point' because they're created by a wide range of individuals, not spewed out by a Fantasy Genre-O-Matic machine set to grim and gritty.

[AutumnWitch]

dragondreamer wrote...

I thought this was an excellent list.

But as I've pointed out on another topic, there *were* female-only robes for Hawke in DA2. She could also wear robes identical to Bethany's.

I have seen all the robes on PS3 (I am wondering if its specifci to PS3). But if you look them all up online you can see all of them are just male/female versions of the other. As far as having the same robes as Bethany (I am talking about the very first quest) there are no robes like that available to a female mage Hawke.  The one below:


www.impetuouswindmills.com/images/bethany_dragon_age2_small.jpg

[AutumnWitch]

Mr.House wrote...

Good C&C.

I have to admit to not being the most literate person when it comes to acronyms...what is C&C?

[Maria Caliban]

C&C = Choices and consequences.

[AutumnWitch]

Maria Caliban wrote...

C&C = Choices and consequences.

Awwwww....thank you! 

[AstraDrakkar]

OP I have a long list of things I'd love to see in future DA games but are unlikely to ever see. I won't go into them now since I have to leave for work soon. I'll come back to this thread tomorrow though and specify some of them.

[Swoopdogg]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Swoopdogg wrote...

The point of dark fantasy isn't to be depressing. It's to show that there can be a light found in dark situations.

The works that fall under the label 'dark fantasy' range in meaning. They do not have a singular 'point' because they're created by a wide range of individuals, not spewed out by a Fantasy Genre-O-Matic machine set to grim and gritty.

I was saying as a whole. Generally, Dark Fantasy follows that path.

No matter what the story is about, they generally have dark events that you can find happiness in, no matter how slim that happiness is.

Personally I think that--compared to other Dark Fantasy stories-- Dragon Age isn't that dark.

I'll use another example-- Game of Thrones/ A Song of Ice and Fire. It's pretty dark. Very, very, very dark, in fact. But there's light relief in it, too.

Then you have the Witcher games, which can be almost completely dark if you let it (not following any romances and just killing everyone.)

Anyway I'm getting off topic with Dark Fantasy I'm going to stop now

Modifié par Swoopdogg, 17 juillet 2013 - 09:56 .

[Maria Caliban]

Something I'd like but won't get: a Dragon Age RPG without the party so we can have a proper stealth system and pacifist playthrough.

[dragondreamer]

AutumnWitch wrote...

dragondreamer wrote...

I thought this was an excellent list.

But as I've pointed out on another topic, there *were* female-only robes for Hawke in DA2. She could also wear robes identical to Bethany's.

I have seen all the robes on PS3 (I am wondering if its specifci to PS3). But if you look them all up online you can see all of them are just male/female versions of the other. As far as having the same robes as Bethany (I am talking about the very first quest) there are no robes like that available to a female mage Hawke.  The one below:


www.impetuouswindmills.com/images/bethany_dragon_age2_small.jpg

Not that one, but there were female-specific robes.  Including a blue one that Bethany also wears.  I also have the PS3 version, so it isn't that.  There was a topic that went over this not long ago, and there turned out to be more female-only robes than what I had thought.  I've played both male and female Hawkes, and male Hawke doesn't have a version of these robes at all.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Is there even in first game something like necessary evil?As i renember you can do quests as walking goodness with good result only exception is Behlen vs Harrowmont when both options are bad oh damn i hate this quest so all evil options are unnecessary evil.

[AutumnWitch]

AstraDrakkar wrote...

OP I have a long list of things I'd love to see in future DA games but are unlikely to ever see. I won't go into them now since I have to leave for work soon. I'll come back to this thread tomorrow though and specify some of them.

Cool, can't wait to read them!

[Boycott Bioware]

I agree about female protagonist is just a feminized male protagonist, that is why i do suggesting some time ago that female protagonist is a complete different person with the male one and not the same person but different gender

[AutumnWitch]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Something I'd like but won't get: a Dragon Age RPG without the party so we can have a proper stealth system and pacifist playthrough.

freaking no kidding!! I agree. It would be so hard to have a whole pacifist play through? I can't even imagine how you would do that. In the little bit with Tallis while being in stealth mode was very difficult and that was just a tiny castle!

[Am1vf]

Nice post AutumnWitch! I mostly agree but would like to comment on on some of those:

“Staging Area”
It would be a nice touch, I dare say that warriors and specially rogues coud make use of this too. It might be even some training figths with the companions (with training weapons), possibly bets and stuff.

“Elves are people too.”
Well, just because they are people doesn't necessarily mean they have to be playable. I want choices for the race as much as anyone but if Inquisition is a game where you play as a human I can't say it makes it lacking (btw, dwarves, kossith and orlesians are people too).

“What You See Is What You Get”
I don't think this is a girly thing, I would like that too. I sometimes refuse to use some armor with good stats because the way your character looks means things!

“They Have It Coming”
I suppose there could be exceptions to this (where the bad guy escapes or something) but, just as I allways ask for more peaceful solutions, violent options to resolve things should be available when possible. But I understand this is sometimes hard when the devs are trying to write a story,

“The Loot, The Loot Is On Fire”
Yes, it's kind of annoying when that happens.

“Wonder Woman is NOT Supergirl.”
I think I remember Bethany's hair being available for hawke, and some robes look rather feminine imho, but I suppose there could be more stuff along that so long as female characters can also wear armor, because it's not a matter of femininity but survival. Also, more court clothes for males, or something more like what Varric is wearing, would be a nice addition.
About their behabiours, maybe instead of having diferent dialogues for males and females we could be allowed to choose one or the other? because some guys can be a bit girlish sometimes and some girls can be a bit like a guy sometimes.

Bionuts wrote...

It's not a dating game.

No, it's a roleplaying game, sometimes choosing to have a romance or not is part of a role.

AlanC9 wrote...

AutumnWitch wrote...
“The Ends Do NOT Always Justify The Means” 
(...)

So the whole concept of RPG is being able to do whatever you want without anything having consequences for anything else?

No, I think she means when some resource needed for something unrelated to that mission becomes unavailable simply because you don't go to that particular place, I would say alternate solutions to this sort of things should be included.

I would add:
"Not Origin Required" I mean the EA spyware thing.

"Possibility for a pacifist playthrough" It shoud be almost impossible to achieve and have terrible consequences (otherwise it would feel meaningless) but still posible.

"Applying for a political position" The Guild Reanissance made me want this sort of political machinations in every RPG, but I suppose it's just me.

"No good deed goes unpunished" More bad consequeces for being good and vice versa.

I had more of this but can't remember them right now, I will get back if I remember somthing else.

And one more thing:

Mike 9987 wrote...

Bionuts wrote...

Slavery, rape, torture, fratricide, serial killing, etc., are not happy. They are depressing.

Well that's subjective. 

Brilliant:lol:

[AlanC9]

AutumnWitch wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
So the whole concept of RPG is being able to do whatever you want without anything having consequences for anything else?

No I totally agree that in this case it makes sense that Isabela leaves BUT all I am saying it that because that make it so that you can only get that resource by having to include her quest, players end up just doing that quest for the sake of getting the item and not because it matters to their game play.

In other words they stop role playing and make the choice to keep Isabela not because they want to have her but just because that want that material object.. If we were really role playing we would not make that choice but as a "player" (as oppsoed to character) we know we have to make that choice to get the item regardless of if our character would actually do. So its no longer about role playing because in reality our character would NOT make that choice.

Doing that just means you're a bad RPG player. Not my problem.

And your answer to your problem was to let the player buy his way out of the consequences. Consequences are fine when the player can get out of them?

Modifié par AlanC9, 17 juillet 2013 - 10:03 .

[AlanC9]

Am1_vf wrote...

No, I think she means when some resource needed for something unrelated to that mission becomes unavailable simply because you don't go to that particular place, I would say alternate solutions to this sort of things should be included.

Well, if the thing should have had an alternative path anyway, then it should have had the alternative path and the Isabela lockout isn't the problem.

[AutumnWitch]

Am1_VF,

Thanks good post as well! Glad to know my friends and I aren't the only ones who think about this stuff. I was also thinking that the staging area would also be a good place to practice using your whole party. In DA2 it was difficult to get used to issuing any type of orders because you never got to practice. It was always "baptism under fire" so to speak.

As far as the different race things, the only reason I singled out Elves was because the tend to play an important role in both DAO and DA2. It seems odd to me that if they are so important then it might make sense to include them as a protagonist. (Seems to be the same with dwarves too i suppose) (yes I know you can choose them in DAO, but it is to my understanding you won't be able to choose them in DAI)

Anyway thank you for the feedback!

[Bionuts]

Am1_vf wrote...


No, it's a roleplaying game, sometimes choosing to have a romance or not is part of a role.

That isn't the point. Bioware already puts in a lot of content for romance CONSIDERING that it's not a dating game. Any more time spent making cuddly scenes and talks is just going overboard and time wasted where they could put in other parts of the game that are lacking.

Modifié par Bionuts, 17 juillet 2013 - 10:18 .