51 réponses à ce sujet

[Matthias King]

Blennus wrote...

They're called squadmates in Single player.

'Go play single-player' is not a satisfactory retort. 

The single-player campaign and MP are two very different experiences.  The MP has no real narrative; it's a self-contained, singular experience of 11 waves, whereas the campaign is a narrative consisting of many linear missions, none of which can you just pick up and play at any given time the way you can an MP match.

And once again, I'll point out that what we're talking about here would be an OPTION.  You know, something that is OPTIONAL, meaning NOT OBLIGATORY.  That means you would have the OPTION (there's that word again) to completely ignore A.I. bot teammates if you so chose.

[Blennus]

I wasn't contradicting you or anything. I was just pointing out how the AI would be if it were to be implemented in multiplayer. Constant calls of "Man Down"

[Matthias King]

That's why I suggested that not only could the A.I. potentially be significantly improved to the point of being reasonably competent in ME4, given the processing and memory of next-gen consoles, but also that the bot teammates could be given 150% to 200% health and shields to make up for what they may lack in intelligence.

[Baskins15]

Not a bad idea at all, just very hard to make in a game setting.

Either way the bot teammates will be either very hardworking, knowing their powers, and how to cast them upon enemies or they will become very lackluster, unable to target enemies correctly, and die very quickly.

This however, is not the hard part. What is stopping this idea is basically to balance one bot teammate to the other. Now, the good part is that the multiplayer can be constantly played without having to wait in a lobby for so many hours waiting for it to be filled but the bots would be full of uncertainty due to them being computers.

Not quite disagreeing with your opinion, which I think is a good idea but very hard to do in multiplayer.

Modifié par Baskins15, 21 juillet 2013 - 08:03 .

[Matthias King]

I'm hanging a lot of my hope for the idea on improved A.I. from better consoles.

I've read statements from many developers and they all say the same thing; that the biggest hurdle in creating good A.I. is memory. The new consoles will have a huge increase in memory, so I'm hoping that memory increase will translate to much-improved A.I., both on the enemy side, and the ally side.

Another thing that just occurred to me is that problems of lag would be largely absent from games with bot teammates. That's just the cherry on top.

[Baskins15]

Matthias King wrote...

I'm hanging a lot of my hope for the idea on improved A.I. from better consoles.

I've read statements from many developers and they all say the same thing; that the biggest hurdle in creating good A.I. is memory. The new consoles will have a huge increase in memory, so I'm hoping that memory increase will translate to much-improved A.I., both on the enemy side, and the ally side.

Another thing that just occurred to me is that problems of lag would be largely absent from games with bot teammates. That's just the cherry on top.

The idea sounds really good at first. With the whole no lag issues and having to deal with no long waits in the lobby.
But the thing that I cannot see is how the whole letting you choose what current levels your bot teams have, throw in the different levels that a player can be will grow in uncertainty for the idea. I see it not happening, now as being said I would like the option because sometimes I just want to play a game by myself but don't want to play as a solo player. If it were to happen, I would think the whole levels and attributes that the bot would have would be randomized and not up to the player.

[Matthias King]

If they did randomize the attributes and level of the bots it wouldn't be worth even having the feature I don't think.

Imagine you're wanting to do a match and you want to use your bot teammates and you want to be a biotic squad with good synergy, but then the game is designed to randomize those things, it would basically ruin the experience.

I think you should be able to bring your teammates into the match exactly as they are, whatever way that may be. Your builds, your weapon choice, etc... Otherwise what would be the point?

It would be like not being able to choose Garrus's skill points or weapons, then taking him on a mission in single-player and having him be of no use because it was randomized in some stupid way.

I personally think the level of complexity and sophistication that they're able to achieve in the A.I. itself is the only real hurdle. Everything else would just be design choices, e.g. how many teammates can you have, do they get extra hit points, do they stay with you or go off independently, etc...

Modifié par Matthias King, 21 juillet 2013 - 08:53 .

[Baskins15]

Matthias King wrote...

If they did randomize the attributes and level of the bots it wouldn't be worth even having the feature I don't think.

Imagine you're wanting to do a match and you want to use your bot teammates and you want to be a biotic squad with good synergy, but then the game is designed to randomize those things, it would basically ruin the experience.

I think you should be able to bring your teammates into the match exactly as they are, whatever way that may be. Your builds, your weapon choice, etc... Otherwise what would be the point?

It would be like not being able to choose Garrus's skill points or weapons, then taking him on a mission in single-player and having him be of no use because it was randomized in some stupid way.

I personally think the level of complexity and sophistication that they're able to achieve in the A.I. itself is the only real hurdle. Everything else would just be design choices, i.e. how many teammates can you have, do they get extra hit points, do they stay with you or go off independently, etc...

I see your point, I really do. But, I'll give you an example. If I were to be a level 20 Adept going into a game and hosting it, not wanting to play with others but would want some competent teammates. I would then select bot teammates, then what?

Would it create some drop down menu stating what I want in a player and voila I have my perfect teammate where I can choose what power skill point that I want them to have? To me, it seems really hard to do that. The only way possible that I see any bot matchmaking going on is for me to pick a game, select bot teammates, and it would work just like it would in the normal matchmaking, having bot teammates of different levels, and classes come in. I'm not saying that randomized classes and builds is good, but to completely have control over what the bot is seems a little too much and not very possible.

[SirDieAL0t]

 3 bot juggys with level 4 cyclonic ? :innocent:

[Nitrocuban]

No bots in MP please, but something like Pinnacle Station with just everything from MP and my SP squadmates for SP (and only for SP) would be nice.
Armamax Arena was just to small in scale and did not motivate me long enough.

[longgamma]

Hard to code good ai for bots. I did try my hand at ai development in age of empires 2 and went through the good ones people had made. Most of the time it was an aggressive push early on plus some reactive elements depending on which units are attacking. Pretty difficult to code and easy to game by other people.

I do think a limited play mode with like 3 waves with a mix of bots and normal humans.. But with low xp and credits would help new comers. Call it combat training or something.

[The-Fantasm]

I'd think that the PUGs would be smarter than the AI

[paranoio]

While I personally think it could be awsome having some kinda AI taking over the spot if a player leaves the game in the middle...

I am still having horrible predictions of AI's just being movable turrets...

They just stand there, empty a clip after another... Use an ability now and then... AAAAAAAND then get swarmed or sync killed in the beginning of every wave

Just what I believe will happen ;D

[Baskins15]

paranoio wrote...

They just stand there, empty a clip after another... Use an ability now and then... AAAAAAAND then get swarmed or sync killed in the beginning of every wave

Just what I believe will happen ;D

Exactly what I think will happen <_<
Either that are very over powered teammates who just take all the kills and take the fun out of multiplayer.
But would kind of be up for the idea if done correctly with balancing. If they do indeed do that for ME4 then it would be a cool idea, just would want them to focus more along the story of ME4 and not all on the multiplayer.

[Matthias King]

Baskins15 wrote...

Matthias King wrote...

If they did randomize the attributes and level of the bots it wouldn't be worth even having the feature I don't think.

Imagine you're wanting to do a match and you want to use your bot teammates and you want to be a biotic squad with good synergy, but then the game is designed to randomize those things, it would basically ruin the experience.

I think you should be able to bring your teammates into the match exactly as they are, whatever way that may be. Your builds, your weapon choice, etc... Otherwise what would be the point?

It would be like not being able to choose Garrus's skill points or weapons, then taking him on a mission in single-player and having him be of no use because it was randomized in some stupid way.

I personally think the level of complexity and sophistication that they're able to achieve in the A.I. itself is the only real hurdle. Everything else would just be design choices, i.e. how many teammates can you have, do they get extra hit points, do they stay with you or go off independently, etc...

I see your point, I really do. But, I'll give you an example. If I were to be a level 20 Adept going into a game and hosting it, not wanting to play with others but would want some competent teammates. I would then select bot teammates, then what?

Would it create some drop down menu stating what I want in a player and voila I have my perfect teammate where I can choose what power skill point that I want them to have? To me, it seems really hard to do that. The only way possible that I see any bot matchmaking going on is for me to pick a game, select bot teammates, and it would work just like it would in the normal matchmaking, having bot teammates of different levels, and classes come in. I'm not saying that randomized classes and builds is good, but to completely have control over what the bot is seems a little too much and not very possible.

Actually, the way I imagined it was that you select from the same pool of characters that you choose as your own character.  For example, if you chose to play as the Fury, and you chose your Human Adept, Human Sentinel, and Asari Justicar as your teammates, they would be YOUR characters, the way you have them spec'd if you were to select them as your character.  Does that make sense?

If you have your Human Adept spec'd for 3 fitness, 5 passives, and six in all your powers and equipped with a Hurricane, then that's what you would load in as your teammate.  You wouldn't have a separate pool for bots, it would be loaded from your normal pool.  And you could select their gear and equipment bonuses just like a player would.

And to combat loading 3 Juggys with Cyclonics, you could only load your characters once, meaning you could only load what you have.  You only have one Juggernaut, so you could only load one.  You could potentially load two of the same base human characters with the male and female versions, but beyond that, you could only have one of each.  No all TGI games or all GI games.  If you load the TGI for your character, he wouldn't be available as a bot.

[razrblack]

I'm sorry Dave. I'm afraid I can't revive you.

[Matthias King]

razrblack wrote...

I'm sorry Dave. I'm afraid I can't revive you.

When did the Kinect show up?
But on the subject, that's one thing that I was actually impressed with in GoW:J and Fuse, they actually reliably revive you if you get downed.  I was impressed.

[razrblack]

Matthias King wrote...

When did the Kinect show up?
But on the subject, that's one thing that I was actually impressed with in GoW:J and Fuse, they actually reliably revive you if you get downed.  I was impressed.

It is astonishing when you see competent bots at work. The first good bots I ever saw were in Star Wars: Republic Commandos. You had three more specialized companions and you could give them orders that they actually could understand and follow. You wanted someone to revive you? Done. You wanted them to keep fighint and revive you later? Done. That was impressive. ME companions felt like a step backward actually, they just can't revive you at all and if you die you're gone. I would've liked at least some continuity with the MP mechanics, but oh well.

[Baskins15]

Matthias King wrote...

Baskins15 wrote...

Matthias King wrote...

If they did randomize the attributes and level of the bots it wouldn't be worth even having the feature I don't think.

Imagine you're wanting to do a match and you want to use your bot teammates and you want to be a biotic squad with good synergy, but then the game is designed to randomize those things, it would basically ruin the experience.

I think you should be able to bring your teammates into the match exactly as they are, whatever way that may be. Your builds, your weapon choice, etc... Otherwise what would be the point?

It would be like not being able to choose Garrus's skill points or weapons, then taking him on a mission in single-player and having him be of no use because it was randomized in some stupid way.

I personally think the level of complexity and sophistication that they're able to achieve in the A.I. itself is the only real hurdle. Everything else would just be design choices, i.e. how many teammates can you have, do they get extra hit points, do they stay with you or go off independently, etc...

I see your point, I really do. But, I'll give you an example. If I were to be a level 20 Adept going into a game and hosting it, not wanting to play with others but would want some competent teammates. I would then select bot teammates, then what?

Would it create some drop down menu stating what I want in a player and voila I have my perfect teammate where I can choose what power skill point that I want them to have? To me, it seems really hard to do that. The only way possible that I see any bot matchmaking going on is for me to pick a game, select bot teammates, and it would work just like it would in the normal matchmaking, having bot teammates of different levels, and classes come in. I'm not saying that randomized classes and builds is good, but to completely have control over what the bot is seems a little too much and not very possible.

Actually, the way I imagined it was that you select from the same pool of characters that you choose as your own character.  For example, if you chose to play as the Fury, and you chose your Human Adept, Human Sentinel, and Asari Justicar as your teammates, they would be YOUR characters, the way you have them spec'd if you were to select them as your character.  Does that make sense?

If you have your Human Adept spec'd for 3 fitness, 5 passives, and six in all your powers and equipped with a Hurricane, then that's what you would load in as your teammate.  You wouldn't have a separate pool for bots, it would be loaded from your normal pool.  And you could select their gear and equipment bonuses just like a player would.

I guess it could work like that. Just doesn't sound really plausible to be able to choose what level they are, skill points, and weapon choices. If it DOES happen, however it would be a great idea as long as the bots know what their purpose is. If we get an objective, then the bot should be able to do that with no problem and not constantly walking around getting killed or sync killed for that matter. Great idea I suppose, I for one am for it just don't know if the bots would be fully balanced and know exactly what to do.  

Modifié par Baskins15, 21 juillet 2013 - 06:45 .

[Matthias King]

The level of sophistication and competency that they're able to impart to the A.I. is really the lynchpin of the whole idea. If they can't improve the A.I. significantly from what it is currently, then the idea mostly falls apart.

If the A.I. is actually good though, I really hope to see this idea come to fruition.

[Baskins15]

Matthias King wrote...

The level of sophistication and competency that they're able to impart to the A.I. is really the lynchpin of the whole idea. If they can't improve the A.I. significantly from what it is currently, then the idea mostly falls apart.

If the A.I. is actually good though, I really hope to see this idea come to fruition.

Yeah, I can see it happening with the whole A.I teammates. Would be pretty cool to add that feature into multiplayer, just as long as it's not like ME3 single player teammates. 
But good on you for thinking of ideas for ME4, if it does happen as Mass Effect four is possibly going to be on next generation consoles that they could possibly improve the bots to work with objectives. We don't relatively see how they would react to objectives in Single player as the player has to walk up and activate every objective to complete a mission in ME3 single player.

[Matthias King]

Another idea I would have liked to see in ME3, but perhaps in ME4 is when you're deployed into a match, the idea is that you and your team have been dropped off by an Alliance Kodiak shuttle. There were a few missions in ME3's single-player where the door opened on the Kodiak as Cortez was flying you in, and you got to see the battlefield as you were flying in for a landing, then Shepard and squad hopped out of the shuttle and into the battle in real-time. I would have loved to see this as the intro to every MP match. To see your character and your teammates riding in the shuttle and then getting to control your character as the shuttle is coming in for a landing and then hopping out into the match to start wave 1.

Another idea I would have loved to see is for the enemies to be deployed to the battlefield in a way that makes sense. I can't tell you how many times I've seen either from across the map or right in from of me the enemies just magically materializing from thin air. I loathe and despise the spawn system in ME3's MP. I would have loved to see Reapers being dropped off from the sky from Harvesters or from Reaper ships hovering above. And seeing Geth being airdropped from Geth dropships. Seeing Cerberus squads being dropped off via Cerberus Kodiaks. I don't know how Collectors would have done it, but you get the idea.

Hopefully something like this will be in ME4.

[INVADERONE]

I have experience this before but not sure I prefer it as for multiplayer I prefer it to be actual live team mates. For bots I stick to single player really. I get your point though.

[Tokenusername]

For most missions in SP, Shepard was not alone and there was supposed to be a larger battle taking place around him. These big ships in the skybox and enemies being hot-dropped are nothing more than set pieces, and getting an "overview" of the battle field was just to lend to the illusion of a greater battle. These are just to add to the cinematic of the SP.

In MP, there is no larger battle taking place. You're an elite strike force there to infiltrate the position, complete your three objectives, and then leave. Since MP doesn't even really need context like SP does, these additions would be nothing but gimmick and fluff. Enemies don't spawn before you get there, as you require some amount of time to prepare for getting thrown into battle. So you'd get a sweep of an empty map. After three times of seeing the same map for the air it'll lose its novelty and become nothing but a buffer between you and starting the game.

Uhhg, i'm too tired to keep going into this and it probably isn't worth my anyway. Suffice it to say that MP is not there to make you feel like a big cool guy movie character, that's what SP is for. MP is there to provide an enjoyable and replayable experience. Most bells and whistle you strap to it will just fade into the background anyway when people play the set-ups over and over. Not worth anyone's time.

[Tokenusername]

Matthias King wrote...

razrblack wrote...

I'm sorry Dave. I'm afraid I can't revive you.

When did the Kinect show up?

Why does BSN keep making me feel so much older than I am?