308 réponses à ce sujet

[The Heretic of Time]

 Anyway, since you haven't played it David, I'll simply link you a video of the ending of The Last of Us:



Watch that and tell me if you agree that the choice that Joel (the main character) had to make was a morally grey dilemma with both options he had being morally grey options.

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

That video games with supposed 'moral ambiguity' do so not by enriching their stories, but draining them. By simply sucking out any meaningful themes and feigning helplessness and indicision as maturity and intellect.

That is completely not true. Moral dilemmas are the most MEANINGFUL dilemmas of them all.

You can't have a moral dilemma when the options presented to you are not in some way both morally ambigious.

Again, I ask you to watch the ending of The Last of Us, and give me your thoughts on it: 


Also, please answer my previous question, if you could be so kind.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 24 juillet 2013 - 01:03 .

[Steelcan]

@HH, By meaningful themes he means paragon behaviour.

[dreamgazer]

It's pretty difficult to play a paragon anti-hero in ME.

At best, you can swing a neutral-ish one, kinda like my engineer.

[Kel Riever]

Wow, we are really off on tangents on this thread.



The statements in the OP just show how out of touch people involved with the next ME are.

"It's great!"

"It's awesome"

"People gunna love it!"

Well, damn, let's hope for their sake that there is a massively silent multi-million 'fan'base that is just going to plunk down untold amounts of cash on release of ME4. If the game totally fails, I will still expect them to be consulting 'secret spreadsheets' that tell them they are super successful.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

David7204 wrote...

That video games with supposed 'moral ambiguity' do so not by enriching their stories, but draining them. By simply sucking out any meaningful themes and feigning helplessness and indicision as maturity and intellect.

You're right. We should have Star Wars style morality meters. Because that's much more mature and intelligent.

[dreamgazer]

Kel Riever wrote...

The statements in the OP just show how out of touch people involved with the next ME are.

"It's great!"

"It's awesome"

"People gunna love it!"

Well, damn, let's hope for their sake that there is a massively silent multi-million 'fan'base that is just going to plunk down untold amounts of cash on release of ME4. If the game totally fails, I will still expect them to be consulting 'secret spreadsheets' that tell them they are super successful.

They're not going to keep making the games (or DLC) if they're not profitable, and apparently ME3 has been consistently profitable enough---even while dealing with the ending issue---to greenlight another game. It's not really that complicated. 

[David7204]

If you want to tell a story about how humans are stupid and evil and we all need to die, by all means, go ahead. That's meaningful themes, although ones I have no interest in. I won't criticize it for being helpless, though. 

Modifié par David7204, 24 juillet 2013 - 01:22 .

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

If you want to tell a story about how humans are stupid and evil and we all need to die, by all means, go ahead. That's meaningful themes, although ones I have no interest in. I won't criticize it for being helpless, though. 

What are you even talking about?

[DeinonSlayer]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

David7204 wrote...

If you want to tell a story about how humans are stupid and evil and we all need to die, by all means, go ahead. That's meaningful themes, although ones I have no interest in. I won't criticize it for being helpless, though. 

What are you even talking about?

God, that movie sucked...

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 24 juillet 2013 - 01:31 .

[David7204]

I'm pointing out that meaningful themes are not necessarily 'good' or 'heroic' themes...

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

I'm pointing out that meaningful themes are not necessarily 'good' or 'heroic' themes...

Wow, I never expected you to say that.

I thought you believed everything should be about heroism and that heroism is the only meaningful thing in storytelling?

I agree with this statement though. Meaningful themes are most certainly not always heroic themes.


Though, if you watched that Last of Us video I linked, would you say that Joel, the guy who saved Ellie (the little girl), is a hero, or heroic? Do you think him rescueing Ellie was heroic?

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 24 juillet 2013 - 01:35 .

[David7204]

I watched the ending. It was fine. I very much doubt it would significantly bother me or impress me. It certainly was not a masterpiece.

No, I don't think Joel is a hero.

Modifié par David7204, 24 juillet 2013 - 01:36 .

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

I watched the ending. It was fine. I very much doubt it would significantly bother me or impress me. It certainly was not a masterpiece.

You lack the emotional link to the characters because you haven't played the actual game. So I understand you're a little bit distant and apathetic about it.

That said, did you understand what was going on? Would you agree with the actions of Joel? Would you have done the same? Would you have made the same choice?

And most important of all: Do you think this choice was a meaningul and morally ambigious choice?

David7204 wrote...

No, I don't think Joel is a hero.

Why not? He saved the girl right?

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 24 juillet 2013 - 01:38 .

[David7204]

Yes, I probably would have been done the same thing. Preferably with killing a few less people, but whatever.

No, I don't think the choice was particularly meaningful. This goes right back to what I said to how different portrayals can drastically affect identical events in-universe. None of the dialogue really struck any chords. A lot of the violence seemed rather over-the-top.

[dreamgazer]

I need a hero.

[The Night Mammoth]

Why wasn't Joel's choice meaningful? I thought it was a hell of a lot more meaningful than anything in ME.

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

Yes, I probably would have been done the same thing. Preferably with killing a few less people, but whatever.

No, I don't think the choice was particularly meaningful. This goes right back to what I said to how different portrayals can drastically affect identical events in-universe. None of the dialogue really struck any chords. A lot of the violence seemed rather over-the-top.

Aside from your opinion on the dialogue and violence, why would you say that Joel's decision was not particularly meaningful? Can you elaborate on that?

Personally I thought Joel's decision he had to make was one of the most meaningful decisions I've ever seen in video-game history.

Sure, it was not a player-decision, but a decision made by the character, driven by the narrative, but that shouldn't change anything. I actually LIKED it that I, as the player, had no say in the matter. That Joel made up his own mind and that I as the player had to deal with it and perhaps do something that I, myself, would not necessarily have done if I were in Joel's shoes.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 24 juillet 2013 - 02:07 .

[Steelcan]

Poor Xbox360 user over here.....

[David7204]

I'm curious why you spend your time here and not on the Naughty Dog forums if that's really the case.

Because the story doesn't bother or chooses not to tie meaningful content to it. There's no dialogue. There's no music. There's no tone. There's no camerawork. There's no anything. The story has Joel make the choice but then makes no effort to defend or validate it.

Modifié par David7204, 24 juillet 2013 - 01:49 .

[Seboist]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Why wasn't Joel's choice meaningful? I thought it was a hell of a lot more meaningful than anything in ME.

Given that picking Shepard's hair color is more meaningful than what gets passed around as a "choice" in ME that ain't saying much.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

I'm curious why you spend your time here and not on the Naughty Dog forums if that's really the case.

Turning the argument against him I see... moving the goalposts.

[ShepnTali]

Steelcan wrote...

Poor Xbox360 user over here.....

Eh, grass is greener kind of thing. If the majority of their outputs weren't similar, I would have added a 360 long ago.

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

I'm curious why you spend your time here and not on the Naughty Dog forums if that's really the case. 

Who says I'm not on their forum too?

Because the story doesn't bother or chooses not to tie meaningful content to it. There's no dialogue. There's no music. There's no tone. There's no camerawork. There's no anything. The story has Joel make the choice but then makes no effort to defend or validate it.

Now I actually wonder if you actually watched the video.. and if you actually understood it...

Because honestly, everything you say, the exact OPPOSITE is true.

The context is in fact VERY meaningful. Ellie, the little girl, could potentially have saved humanity from the infection that drives humanity to extinction in The Last of Us. Her brains could potentially cure humanity, but by finding that cure, they would have to disect her brain. In other words, Ellie would die.

Joel, who started to love Ellie like his own daughter, could not abide with this. He has been surviving this post-apocalyptic scenario of The Last of US for over 20 years. Within those 20 years, Joel has seen the worst humanity has to offer. In contrast, Ellie has shown him the best that humanity has to offer. This motivated Joel to save Ellie, even though her death could have saved humanity, Joel doesn't think it's worth it.

After Joel made his decision, we see a meaningful back-and-forth between him and Ellie. Ellie clearly would have gladly sacrificed herself in order to save humanity, but Joel didn't let her. He then goes on and lies to Ellie about what happened in the hospital. Was this wrong? Did Joel do the right thing, or is he an egocentric douche?

The answers to those last two questions, are up for the player to answer. It's up you, and me, to make up our mind on whether Joel did the right thing or not. This is the very definition of moral ambiguity. If this entire scenario was not morally ambiguous, we would not be able to have a discussion about whether Joel did the right thing or not.


How is all of this NOT meaningful?

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 24 juillet 2013 - 02:02 .