308 réponses à ce sujet

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

iakus wrote...

All this talk about The Last of Us is kind of pointless, as the player cannot in any way affect Joel's choices. And in ME3, they're trying to get the player to make one.

Unfortunately, when all the choices are bad, there's not much ambiguity. There's only what you're willing to permit.

.  None of the endings are portrayed explicitly as bad, they all have benefits and drawbacks.

Portrayal is one thing. How it comes across can be entirely different. 

[Kel Riever]

Again, again, again....the ending(s) of ME3 were simply atrociously done, and a badly executed attempt at moral ambiguity, if someone wants to even credits the creators for having the capacity to think about that, doesn't save the game from a job poorly done.

[The Heretic of Time]

iakus wrote...

All this talk about The Last of Us is kind of pointless, as the player cannot in any way affect Joel's choices. And in ME3, they're trying to get the player to make one.

That's besides the point. You as the player don't actually have to make the choice in order to be able to think and speculate and discuss about it.

Just because Joel made his own decision without our player imput doesn't mean it detracts anything from the moral dilemma that we're presented with at the end of the game.

You can still ask yourself: Why did Joel do that? Would I have done the same? Did Joel do the right thing? Why (not)?

Unfortunately, when all the choices are bad, there's not much ambiguity. There's only what you're willing to permit.

I'm not sure if you're thinking about the ME3 endings now (where all choices are "bad") or whether you're arguing that both possible choices for Joel in The Last of Us were "bad", but still, isn't that in itself ambiguity?

Sometimes it's about choosing the lesser evil. What do YOU think is the lesser evil? Both ME3 and The Last of US require you to think and make up your own mind on this.


PS: I'm not saying that ME3's ending is any good and I wouldn't say that BioWare really did it right, but despite the fact that ME3's ending sucks, it's still rather morally ambiguous, though in a very stupid way.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 24 juillet 2013 - 03:04 .

[Iakus]

Steelcan wrote...

iakus wrote...

All this talk about The Last of Us is kind of pointless, as the player cannot in any way affect Joel's choices. And in ME3, they're trying to get the player to make one.

Unfortunately, when all the choices are bad, there's not much ambiguity. There's only what you're willing to permit.

.  None of the endings are portrayed explicitly as bad, they all have benefits and drawbacks.

True they endings are all whitewashed.  But I don't care about the new galaxy they create. 

I mean face it, if "let the Reapers win"  becomes a valid alternative to these choices, they done screwed up.

[chemiclord]

iakus wrote...

True they endings are all whitewashed.  But I don't care about the new galaxy they create. 

I mean face it, if "let the Reapers win"  becomes a valid alternative to these choices, they done screwed up.

Not... inherently... it would be REALLY hard to paint a scenario where victory wouldn't be worth the cost (at least not in a broken ending sort of way like ME3 was)... but I suppose it would theoretically be possible... I guess.  I mean, there ARE people who choose Refuse simply because their moral compass shatters at any of the "victory" scenarios.

I really comes down to how far your morality can bend before it breaks.

Modifié par chemiclord, 24 juillet 2013 - 03:22 .

[SlottsMachine]

EntropicAngel wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

They're not going to keep making the games (or DLC) if they're not profitable, and apparently ME3 has been consistently profitable enough---even while dealing with the ending issue---to greenlight another game. It's not really that complicated. 

YOUR LOGIC WHICH INVALIDATES MY PETTY HATE DOES NOT BELONG

Haha, dreamgazer was so annoying back in the day with his level-headedness. Why wont you rage?

[chemiclord]

General Slotts wrote...

Haha, dreamgazer was so annoying back in the day with his level-headedness. Why wont you rage?

Because, shockingly, there are people in this world who can't think of any reason why a video game would be worth the frothing anger and mental anguish, no matter how many years and dollars they put into it.  They're more than capable of saying, "Well, THAT sucked" and moving on.

[Iakus]

chemiclord wrote...

iakus wrote...

True they endings are all whitewashed.  But I don't care about the new galaxy they create. 

I mean face it, if "let the Reapers win"  becomes a valid alternative to these choices, they done screwed up.

Not... inherently... it would be REALLY hard to paint a scenario where victory wouldn't be worth the cost (at least not in a broken ending sort of way like ME3 was)... but I suppose it would theoretically be possible... I guess.  I mean, there ARE people who choose Refuse simply because their moral compass shatters at any of the "victory" scenarios.

I really comes down to how far your morality can bend before it breaks.

I don't know about you, but to me, they managed to do it three times in the same game.

And even Refuse is a "Screw You" to the players.

I found victory not worth the cost in any of the scenerios. Which is why I have zero interest in as sequel at all.  I want nothing nto do with these galaxies, knowing what these so-called "choices" required.  And why I'm highly cynical of any excitement about any new Mass Effect game.

[Iakus]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...


PS: I'm not saying that ME3's ending is any good and I wouldn't say that BioWare really did it right, but despite the fact that ME3's ending sucks, it's still rather morally ambiguous, though in a very stupid way.

Ambiguous to me means each side has both merits and drawbacks.  I see no merits whatsoever in any ending outside base survival.  And that's not nearly enough.  And the drawbacks are, to me, frakking horrific.

[SlottsMachine]

chemiclord wrote...

General Slotts wrote...

Haha, dreamgazer was so annoying back in the day with his level-headedness. Why wont you rage?

Because, shockingly, there are people in this world who can't think of any reason why a video game would be worth the frothing anger and mental anguish, no matter how many years and dollars they put into it.  They're more than capable of saying, "Well, THAT sucked" and moving on.

Well, there is a difference between raging and having a complete mental breakdown. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

iakus wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

iakus wrote...

True they endings are all whitewashed.  But I don't care about the new galaxy they create. 

I mean face it, if "let the Reapers win"  becomes a valid alternative to these choices, they done screwed up.

Not... inherently... it would be REALLY hard to paint a scenario where victory wouldn't be worth the cost (at least not in a broken ending sort of way like ME3 was)... but I suppose it would theoretically be possible... I guess.  I mean, there ARE people who choose Refuse simply because their moral compass shatters at any of the "victory" scenarios.

I really comes down to how far your morality can bend before it breaks.

I don't know about you, but to me, they managed to do it three times in the same game.

And even Refuse is a "Screw You" to the players.

I found victory not worth the cost in any of the scenerios. Which is why I have zero interest in as sequel at all.  I want nothing nto do with these galaxies, knowing what these so-called "choices" required.  And why I'm highly cynical of any excitement about any new Mass Effect game.

I concur, though I think we have different motivations for feeling the way we do.

The ending was something they should have done as the final act for the entire series.

[chemiclord]

iakus wrote...

I don't know about you, but to me, they managed to do it three times in the same game.

And even Refuse is a "Screw You" to the players.

I found victory not worth the cost in any of the scenerios. Which is why I have zero interest in as sequel at all.  I want nothing nto do with these galaxies, knowing what these so-called "choices" required.  And why I'm highly cynical of any excitement about any new Mass Effect game.

Well, I meant in an "actually do it well" sort of way, rather than a "this is such a mess I don't WANT any part of it" sort of way.

Last of Us actually does a pretty good job of creating a scenario where the "greater good" really isn't worth what it would cost the individual... but it's not a really good example because there really isn't much of  a "victory" scenario at all.

[Lady Abstract]

I have faith in the next mass effect :innocent:

[chemiclord]

I have faith in the next Mass Effect being a decent to good product on the whole. I'm not expecting anything particularly spectacular... then again, I never really have to begin with.

[Kel Riever]

General Slotts wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

General Slotts wrote...

Haha, dreamgazer was so annoying back in the day with his level-headedness. Why wont you rage?

Because, shockingly, there are people in this world who can't think of any reason why a video game would be worth the frothing anger and mental anguish, no matter how many years and dollars they put into it.  They're more than capable of saying, "Well, THAT sucked" and moving on.

Well, there is a difference between raging and having a complete mental breakdown. 

This is true.  There have been some amazing posts about super depression after the ending.  Now, to give them a break, it isn't like they played a flash game for 2 minutes and got that way.  They put in about 100 hours of gameplay with a character they probably cared about and were deeply interested in the story, only to have it pooped on by thoughtless creators.

Nevertheless, pidgeon-holing is alive and well.  Ending lover like name calling and saying everyone who doesn't like ME3 who sticks around is depressed.  It makes them feel better.  When really what makes some of us feel better is making ending lovers get all upset.  Or making fun of BioWare.  Laugher is positive baby, even if it is making fun of something else.  Like me...I'm getting my money's worth....

Of course, there's also people who like to discuss things.  People like to speculate about how it could have been better.  And so on and so on.  

But in the hyperbole of the internet, people are going to go pidgeon hole.  All I have to say is if you are going to say something, while the hyperbole throttle is all the way in the red, at least make it funny.

Don't Auld Wulf it, if you know what I mean...

[Taboo]

It's like waiting patiently for a possibly bad medical diagnosis. It could be okay. Or it could be bad.

Kel Riever wrote...

Don't Auld Wulf it, if you know what I mean...

LOL

[Wolfva2]

chemiclord wrote...

General Slotts wrote...

Haha, dreamgazer was so annoying back in the day with his level-headedness. Why wont you rage?

Because, shockingly, there are people in this world who can't think of any reason why a video game would be worth the frothing anger and mental anguish, no matter how many years and dollars they put into it.  They're more than capable of saying, "Well, THAT sucked" and moving on.

3 cheers for maturity!!!

As far as the choices being bad...I don't get it.   What other choices CAN there be?  In any combat situation, what can you do?  Well, let's see...you can:
1) Defeat the enemy.
2)Join the enemy.
3)Lose to the enemy.
4 Hide from the enemy.

We get 3 of those 4 options with hiding being dismissed as undoable.  I still think the biggest problem people have with the ending stems from the game having ended on a good note...Shep and Anderson leaning against a console watching Earth after the Citadel and Crucible join together.  But then they pulled a Steven Spielburg "AI" move...."WAIT!  It's not done yet!  Heeeeeres....THE CATALYST!!!!" and now a LITERAL deus ex Machina arrives.  It was jarring, and confusing.  And that leads to rage.

Honestly?  The game needed no big moral decision ending.  The entire series was predicated upon destroying the reapers.  If they wanted us to make a moral choice, perhaps it would have been better done in ME2 with Shep deciding to join TIM to control the reapers or side with Anderson to destroy them.  But, they didn't ask me for my opinion when they wrote the game, and I support their right to write whatever they want to.  Even if I think it's weak <LOL>.  But the choices themselves?  They weren't bad; they were the only choices possible.  It was the presentation that was lacking.

[AlanC9]

Technically, isn't that a Diabolus Ex Machina? The Catalyst makes things worse, not better.

[Wolfva2]

Huh. Never heard of that term, but it just might make better sense <LOL>. Or maybe 'idiotus ex machina...'

[MrStoob]

On the whole, I look forward to a new ME franchise. But after the ME3 debarcle, I'm a lot more cautious about the whole affair. Yes, I did feel burned to a large extent (not just the ending) by ME3, and the reaction from BW did them no favours.

Regardless, ME without the much loved characters present will probably feel quite empty and odd to begin with. I hope BW appreciate the hard work it will take to make it work, coz they sure as hell didn't for ME3.

And no, it's not "Haters gonna hate". It's "Poorly constructed creative venture will receive criticism". The former being a lame and lazy way of defending an opinion.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

iakus wrote...

2 Favoring any kind of sequel, by its very definition is saying "The hell with everyone else" since someone's gonna get screwed.  If a sequel doesn't allow for MEHEM, I get screwed.  If IT doesn't play out, Twilight God gets screwed.  If Synthesis isn't allowed, Iledra gets screwed.  If Shepard died on the Citadel, everyone who favored High EMS Destroy is screwed.

So you admit all of that "Shepard dies in High EMS Destroy"-nonsense was just that: nonsense?

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Edit: Nevermind.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 24 juillet 2013 - 11:11 .

[dorktainian]

haha

[The Heretic of Time]

Wolfva2 wrote...

Huh. Never heard of that term, but it just might make better sense <LOL>. Or maybe 'idiotus ex machina...'

But the Catalyst is so deep and though-provoking!

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 24 juillet 2013 - 11:24 .