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Next Mass Effect: "Sh**t's gettin' real"


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#126
Iakus

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chemiclord wrote...

Nope.  I'd advise you to read his post again.  That is pretty much EXACTLY what he is demanding; that all other endings but his chosen one be rejected, that IT be confirmed, and if those demands are not met that he'll *gasp* not buy the game!

Which is fine, I suppose.  But why waste time waiting to see when I can tell him right now that his demands will not be met?


::reads post again::

Yeah, so?

He can't see a sequel being viable without confirming IT.  I'd say he's more optimistic than I am, as I don't see any possible way a sequel will be viable. 

Which is why I'm firmly in the "dump the baggage" camp.

#127
BaladasDemnevanni

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crimzontearz wrote...

Uh...how exactly does Chemic's post even apply? If I dislike prequels and Bioware is making a prequel (all hypothetical) why exactly should I

• not express my discontent
• not vote with my wallet and not buy the game

I mean twilight is going a little too far but are we not entitled to have a checklist of deal breakers for the next game? And if those ARE his deal breakers and he does not buy the game then what exactly is wrong with that?

I have my list of deal breakers too regarding the next Mass Effect, they are not as strict but I have such list for any title I buy


The dealbreakers aren't the problem. His tone and motivations are.

If you don't think a premise is interesting enough, that's fine. If you don't have confidence in Bioware's ability to write a coherent game, that's also fine.

If your only hope of playing Bioware's next game is that they acknowledge a controversial headcanon, then good luck to you. That's not a problem tied into the quality of the endings, that's a problem with players demanding that all choice based games result in a canon going their way.

I have an ending of ME3 that I think works best (Control). If Bioware designs their next game with a canon not centered around control, that doesn't invalidate my decisions. It will simply be an alternate universe with some alternate Shepard who chose differently. I don't associate my canon Shepard with Bioware's alternate universe. His criticism doesn't seem to be that he dislikes any other options but that Bioware might refuse to give his version of the story special treatment. It also doesn't help that Shepard needs to be around when Bioware made it clear that Shepard is out quite a long time ago. How long do people want these import decisions to continue for?

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 23 juillet 2013 - 01:43 .


#128
BaladasDemnevanni

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iakus wrote...

::reads post again::

Yeah, so?

He can't see a sequel being viable without confirming IT.  I'd say he's more optimistic than I am, as I don't see any possible way a sequel will be viable. 

Which is why I'm firmly in the "dump the baggage" camp.


Alternate universes are amazing.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 23 juillet 2013 - 01:45 .


#129
crimzontearz

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BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Uh...how exactly does Chemic's post even apply? If I dislike prequels and Bioware is making a prequel (all hypothetical) why exactly should I

• not express my discontent
• not vote with my wallet and not buy the game

I mean twilight is going a little too far but are we not entitled to have a checklist of deal breakers for the next game? And if those ARE his deal breakers and he does not buy the game then what exactly is wrong with that?

I have my list of deal breakers too regarding the next Mass Effect, they are not as strict but I have such list for any title I buy


The dealbreakers aren't the problem. His tone and motivations are.

If you don't think a premise is interesting enough, that's fine. If you don't have confidence in Bioware's ability to write a coherent game, that's also fine.

If your only hope of playing Bioware's next game is that they acknowledge a controversial headcanon, then good luck to you. That's not a problem tied into the quality of the endings, that's a problem with players demanding that all choice based games result in a canon going their way.

I have an ending of ME3 that I think works best (Control). If Bioware designs their next game with a canon not centered around control, that doesn't invalidate my decisions. It will simply be an alternate universe with some alternate Shepard who chose differently. I don't associate my canon Shepard with Bioware's alternate universe. His criticism doesn't seem to be that he dislikes any other options but that Bioware might refuse to give his version of the story special treatment. It also doesn't help that Shepard needs to be around when Bioware made it clear that Shepard is out quite a long time ago. How long do people want these import decisions to continue for?


So his dealbreaker is "if IT is not used I am not interested"...it sounds silly to some but that is his deal breaker. How does that affect you and your deal breakers?

One of my deal breakers is the absence of NG+. You may consider it silly but ME with no NG+ = no purchase for me most likely, that does not mean I expect Bioware to 100% put it in the game or you to agree with me on the matter.

#130
crimzontearz

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BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

iakus wrote...

::reads post again::

Yeah, so?

He can't see a sequel being viable without confirming IT.  I'd say he's more optimistic than I am, as I don't see any possible way a sequel will be viable. 

Which is why I'm firmly in the "dump the baggage" camp.


Alternate universes are amazing.

I am ALL for a reboot actually

#131
Mcfly616

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BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
Alternate universes are amazing.


Let's hope Bioware thinks so...

#132
BaladasDemnevanni

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crimzontearz wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

iakus wrote...

::reads post again::

Yeah, so?

He can't see a sequel being viable without confirming IT.  I'd say he's more optimistic than I am, as I don't see any possible way a sequel will be viable. 

Which is why I'm firmly in the "dump the baggage" camp.


Alternate universes are amazing.

I am ALL for a reboot actually


As am I.

#133
crimzontearz

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BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

iakus wrote...

::reads post again::

Yeah, so?

He can't see a sequel being viable without confirming IT.  I'd say he's more optimistic than I am, as I don't see any possible way a sequel will be viable. 

Which is why I'm firmly in the "dump the baggage" camp.


Alternate universes are amazing.

I am ALL for a reboot actually


As am I.

yes but I sadly have the feeling that's not what we will get

#134
BaladasDemnevanni

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crimzontearz wrote...

So his dealbreaker is "if IT is not used I am not interested"...it sounds silly to some but that is his deal breaker. How does that affect you and your deal breakers?


When Mass Effect started as a premise, there were a million and one different possibilities for the narrative. After ME3, that still holds true: prequels, sequels, alternate universes, etc, etc. What's worse is that he's not simply interested in one particular ending (IT Destroy), he's also demanding that Shepard be a non-player character indicating that he has Shepard-obsessive syndrome. Bioware apparently can't write a Destroy story thousands of years later? Hell, how did he ever get into Mass Effect to begin with before he had any relationship to Shepard? That's not an anti-ending point, that's a "he can't let go of Shepard" point.

I'd say what he's asking for is on the level of asking ME be turned into a sports game in terms of realistic possibilities. It's not tied into his dislike of the endings, but his outright demand that Bioware design the universe in his, highly specific way. As I said, if he could find it in himself to start Mass Effect in the first place, then there's surely some other story Bioware could tell completely independent of any of the endings.

One of my deal breakers is the absence of NG+. You may consider it silly but ME with no NG+ = no purchase for me most likely, that does not mean I expect Bioware to 100% put it in the game or you to agree with me on the matter.


I don't recall, was this possible in ME 1-3? If so, I can't say that's a bad dealbreaker. At the least, there is expectation for it.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 23 juillet 2013 - 02:23 .


#135
crimzontearz

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BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

So his dealbreaker is "if IT is not used I am not interested"...it sounds silly to some but that is his deal breaker. How does that affect you and your deal breakers?


When Mass Effect started as a premise, there were a million and one different possibilities for the narrative. After ME3, that still holds true: prequels, sequels, alternate universes, etc, etc. What's worse is that he's not simply interested in one particular ending (IT Destroy), he's also demanding that Shepard be a non-player character indicating that he has Shepard-obsessive syndrome. Bioware apparently can't write a Destroy story thousands of years later? Hell, how did he ever get into Mass Effect to begin with before he had any relationship to Shepard? That's not an anti-ending point, that's a "he can't let go of Shepard" point.

I'd say what he's asking for is on the level of asking ME be turned into a sports game in terms of realistic possibilities. It's not tied into his dislike of the endings, but his outright demand that Bioware design the universe in his, highly specific way. As I said, if he could find it in himself to start Mass Effect in the first place, then there's surely some other story Bioware could tell completely independent of any of the endings.

One of my deal breakers is the absence of NG+. You may consider it silly but ME with no NG+ = no purchase for me most likely, that does not mean I expect Bioware to 100% put it in the game or you to agree with me on the matter.


I don't recall, was this possible in ME 1-3? If so, I can't say that's a bad dealbreaker.


yes, he is asking way too much but that's his problem, sure he should phrase it differently but that remains his prerogative. He will likely not buy the new game at which point well....it will not matter anymore


 
As for NG+ yes it was present in ME1&2&3...but it was almost removed from ME2 (fan outcry rectified that)...but it is just one of the deal breakers. I will also not buy any prequel/interquel/sidequel/midiquel as I have no interest in such premise

#136
Iakus

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crimzontearz wrote...
yes, he is asking way too much but that's his problem, sure he should phrase it differently but that remains his prerogative. He will likely not buy the new game at which point well....it will not matter anymore


Some people just take a perverse delight in describing in insulting and excruciating detail just how wrong a person's opinion is.  How you're a terrible person for having that opinion, and how you're scum of the earth for daring to actually vocalize it

#137
Kel Riever

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Why are ending lovers so mad at people who hang out here hating the endings?

It is WAY more fun bashing the endings than the endings. And hell, it is just fun, perioed.

People make it sound like coming here is something we should all feel bad about. I don't. I find it hilarious. I find it even more hilarious when some ending lover gets all up in arms about it.

As it pertains to ME FOUR, well, it isn't out yet and yeah, I really find it hard to understand why people who hated the endings, particularly post EC actually spend money on BioWare products. Now some people have explained certain things to me, like, "I wanted the Citadel Party to begin with, and now I've got it." Okay, that makes sense. That person is paying for the ending they feel they should have gotten.

But for all the people out there like, "I hated the ending. Then I bought Leviathan hoping it would get better. I hated Leviathan, I bought Omega hoping. I hated Omega. Here comes Mess Effect Four. I hope it will get better..." That person makes no sense. And if you bring it up, the typical response I see is, "I DO WAT I WANT!" Yeah, do you mean you like spending money on things you hate and nobody can tell you not to? Do you like having no credibility or being thought of as crazy?

They are right, I can't tell them what to do either. But just like Mass Effect 3, there's a lot of entertainment to be had in making fun of people....

#138
BaladasDemnevanni

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iakus wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
yes, he is asking way too much but that's his problem, sure he should phrase it differently but that remains his prerogative. He will likely not buy the new game at which point well....it will not matter anymore


Some people just take a perverse delight in describing in insulting and excruciating detail just how wrong a person's opinion is.  How you're a terrible person for having that opinion, and how you're scum of the earth for daring to actually vocalize it


It's not chemiclord's fault that he accurately captured Twilightgod's position. You can have whatever opinion you want. Just don't make a fool of yourself expressing it.

#139
Iakus

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BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

iakus wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
yes, he is asking way too much but that's his problem, sure he should phrase it differently but that remains his prerogative. He will likely not buy the new game at which point well....it will not matter anymore


Some people just take a perverse delight in describing in insulting and excruciating detail just how wrong a person's opinion is.  How you're a terrible person for having that opinion, and how you're scum of the earth for daring to actually vocalize it


It's not chemiclord's fault that he accurately captured Twilightgod's position. You can have whatever opinion you want. Just don't make a fool of yourself expressing it.


Except it wasn't accurate, it was a blatant strawman designed to do nothing more than to make Twilightgod (and by extension, anyone else who speaks out against the endings) look foolish.  It's something straight out of Political Ads 101

#140
CronoDragoon

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iakus wrote...
Except it wasn't accurate, it was a blatant strawman designed to do nothing more than to make Twilightgod (and by extension, anyone else who speaks out against the endings) look foolish.  It's something straight out of Political Ads 101


It wasn't a strawman. TTG said that, I quote, "the only viable way" for Mass Effect to continue is *insert his IT/Destroy scenario" and that if it doesn't the series is dead. It's not an attack on people speaking out the endings to point out the flaws in this "my way or the highway" scenario.

#141
BaladasDemnevanni

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CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...
Except it wasn't accurate, it was a blatant strawman designed to do nothing more than to make Twilightgod (and by extension, anyone else who speaks out against the endings) look foolish.  It's something straight out of Political Ads 101


It wasn't a strawman. TTG said that, I quote, "the only viable way" for Mass Effect to continue is *insert his IT/Destroy scenario" and that if it doesn't the series is dead. It's not an attack on people speaking out the endings to point out the flaws in this "my way or the highway" scenario.


Exactly right. Iakus is being overly defensive in this case. What Twilight God is asking for is far and above what is reasonable, even given the endings.

Apparently, it's not enough for Destroy to simply be a possibility! Bioware needs to tell everyone they played wrong! And Leviathan needs to happen! And Shepard needs to be a character too! Like that won't have its own host of problems, starting with the save import (yet again).

And again, Chemiclord did describe it accurately:

Not interested in prequels where the end result is already a known factor.

The only way ME4 can be viable is if it continues after ME3 with a Leviathan storyline, feature Shepard in a non-player capacity and Bioware confirms Control and Synthesis to be indoctrinated endings and give everyone a big "Ha Ha Gotcha!! Destroy was the only real choice". Refuse isn't even worth mentioning as it's clearly an afterthought insult to certain people.

Otherwise the series is already dead
. To try and continue this train wreck could only go the way of the pre-Nolan Batman movies, getting progressively more and more idiotic. If they continue as if the current consensus of Shepard's story's conclusion is acceptable I would never buy another ME, much as another Bioware game. Hell, I won't even buy an EA game. I only play EvE Online these days,


Gee, that sounds like a perfectly reasonable and rational approach.  "Give me everything I want and nothing I don't, to hell with anyone else, OR I'M DONE WITH YOU BIOWARE!!!!11!!!"


Bolding the relevant bits.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 23 juillet 2013 - 05:11 .


#142
Iakus

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[quote]BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Apparently, it's not enough for Destroy to simply be a possibility! Bioware needs to tell everyone they played wrong! And Leviathan needs to happen! And Shepard needs to be a character too! Like that won't have its own host of problems, starting with the save import (yet again). [/quote]

I saw no demands, no asking for anything.  Just an opinion.  A spirited one, but an opinion nonetheless.  Which, as happens all too often on the BSN, gets ripped apart and mocked.

And again, Chemiclord did describe it accurately:
[quote]

Not interested in prequels where the end result is already a known factor.

The only way ME4 can be viable is if it continues after ME3 with a Leviathan storyline, feature Shepard in a non-player capacity and Bioware confirms Control and Synthesis to be indoctrinated endings and give everyone a big "Ha Ha Gotcha!! Destroy was the only real choice". Refuse isn't even worth mentioning as it's clearly an afterthought insult to certain people.

Otherwise the series is already dead
. To try and continue this train wreck could only go the way of the pre-Nolan Batman movies, getting progressively more and more idiotic. If they continue as if the current consensus of Shepard's story's conclusion is acceptable I would never buy another ME, much as another Bioware game. Hell, I won't even buy an EA game. I only play EvE Online these days, [/quote]

[quote]
Gee, that sounds like a perfectly reasonable and rational approach.  "Give me everything I want and nothing I don't, to hell with anyone else, OR I'M DONE WITH YOU BIOWARE!!!!11!!!" [/quote]

Bolding the relevant bits.
[/quote]

1 Again, no demands, just an opinion on Bioware's future.

2 Favoring any kind of sequel, by its very definition is saying "The hell with everyone else" since someone's gonna get screwed.  If a sequel doesn't allow for MEHEM, I get screwed.  If IT doesn't play out, Twilight God gets screwed.  If Synthesis isn't allowed, Iledra gets screwed.  If Shepard died on the Citadel, everyone who favored High EMS Destroy is screwed.

3 Sounds like he's about done with Bioware anyway.  Can't say I blame him either.  The endings are terrible to him, to me, and to many others.  If Bioware continues to pretend this isn't a problem, why stick around?  Why throw good money after bad?

::insert snide "move on" comment here::

#143
BaladasDemnevanni

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iakus wrote...

I saw no demands, no asking for anything.  Just an opinion.  A spirited one, but an opinion nonetheless.  Which, as happens all too often on the BSN, gets ripped apart and mocked.

And again, Chemiclord did describe it accurately:


If your opinion calls for a refusal to purchase all EA goods because one developer didn't give you exactly what you want, then you're not likely someone I'm interested in retaining as a customer. You're not interested in quality products, you're merely throwing tantrums like a child. Chemiclord is right: "Give me exactly what I want, everyone else be damned".

2 Favoring any kind of sequel, by its very definition is saying "The hell with everyone else" since someone's gonna get screwed.  If a sequel doesn't allow for MEHEM, I get screwed.  If IT doesn't play out, Twilight God gets screwed.  If Synthesis isn't allowed, Iledra gets screwed.  If Shepard died on the Citadel, everyone who favored High EMS Destroy is screwed.


Favoring any kind of sequel /= requiring a single type of sequel.

And a highly specific kind of sequel at that. You see, it's not enough if Bioware sets the game so far in the future that what's going on isn't relevant to what any of us picked (which is a possibility). Apparently they can't even do an alternate timeline.

You said it yourself: your sequel and Lledra's sequel needs to be allowed, not actively endorsed. Twilightgod is not simply interested in his scenario as a possibility. It's not enough even that Bioware take Destroy, they have to verify a minor aspect of Destroy. Bioware has to confirm Leviathan happened, they have to confirm Shepard is alive (and give him a role in the narrative), they have to make sure everyone knows that Control/Synthesis were mere jokes, All this requires a very limited timeframe and requires extensive resources to deal with more issues over the save import and people complaining about Shepard acting inconsistently.

Basically, if that's what he needs to happen, fine. But then I hope dearly Bioware cuts him lose because his stance is problematic for any Bioware sequel, not just those with crappy endings. We need to continue Revan's story. Alistair needs to be confirmed king. Bioware has to acknowledge that sparing the Collector Base is stupid.

He's essentially asking for all those things for one person. And they all require substantial resources to bust out. He's an unpleasable fan, essentially. That is far in excess of what either you outlined for yourself or for lledra. When you demand that Shepard be involved in ME4, then we can talk about you being on his level. At this point, I'm just curious how someone like him manages to enjoy sequels  period, since they apparently need to be tailor made to his liking.

3 Sounds like he's about done with Bioware anyway.  Can't say I blame him either.  The endings are terrible to him, to me, and to many others.  If Bioware continues to pretend this isn't a problem, why stick around?  Why throw good money after bad?


Then he should leave. If he doesn't think there's anything good which can be done, there's no point in being here, short of enjoyable debate. Because Bioware likely isn't going to take his stance seriously anytime soon. Hell, demanding Shepard be an npc alone puts him in the loony crew.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 23 juillet 2013 - 06:30 .


#144
Iakus

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BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Then he should leave. If he doesn't think there's anything good which can be done, there's no point in being here, short of enjoyable debate. Because Bioware likely isn't going to take his stance seriously anytime soon. Hell, demanding Shepard be an npc alone puts him in the loony crew.


Specifics aside, what Bioware does need to do (imo, anyway) is take the "the endings were bad" position seriously.  Whatever specific reasons individual people hold, the endings were not popular.  At all. 

#145
BaladasDemnevanni

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iakus wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Then he should leave. If he doesn't think there's anything good which can be done, there's no point in being here, short of enjoyable debate. Because Bioware likely isn't going to take his stance seriously anytime soon. Hell, demanding Shepard be an npc alone puts him in the loony crew.


Specifics aside, what Bioware does need to do (imo, anyway) is take the "the endings were bad" position seriously.  Whatever specific reasons individual people hold, the endings were not popular.  At all. 


Agreed, I'd call them the worst endings to a series I ever enjoyed. Hell, maybe the worst endings period.

But I think there are still a myriad of possibilities to start fresh. I just don't think a good starting point for Bioware's new series is saying "We're going to go with a controversial version of the Destroy Ending, laugh at everyone who chose differently, and we're going to make Shepard a companion and potentially have him take character-breaking actions, and keep going with the import system".

I think starting completely fresh is the best way to get out any remaining bad blood, no imports, no memories, just a new beginning, a new protagonist, a new premise, something very different from all we've seen. No references to the Reapers, no involvement of companions similar to DA2 Leliana, hell for our purposes the Reapers don't even exist: the Protheans died out fighting each other.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 23 juillet 2013 - 06:40 .


#146
Iakus

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BaladasDemnevanni wrote...



Agreed, I'd call them the worst endings to a series I ever enjoyed. Hell, maybe the worst endings period.

But I think there are still a myriad of possibilities to start fresh. I just don't think a good starting point for Bioware's new series is saying "We're going to go with a controversial version of the Destroy Ending, laugh at everyone who chose differently, and we're going to make Shepard a companion and potentially have him take character-breaking actions, and keep going with the import system".

I think starting completely fresh is the best way to get out any remaining bad blood, no imports, no memories, just a new beginning, a new protagonist, a new premise, something very different from all we've seen. No references to the Reapers, no involvement of companions similar to DA2 Leliana, hell for our purposes the Reapers don't even exist: the Protheans died out fighting each other.


I generally agree, except I found the endings so bad they killed my enjoyment of the whole trilogy.

But just because I think a clean slate is needed, doesn't mean I feel obligated to disrespect someone who has a different idea on how to fix the problem. 

#147
BaladasDemnevanni

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iakus wrote...

But just because I think a clean slate is needed, doesn't mean I feel obligated to disrespect someone who has a different idea on how to fix the problem. 


It's not fixing the problem, it's introducing a whole host of new ones. As I said, if that is what it's going to take for him to purchase the next game, he should give up now. His scenario requires:

1) Upsetting everyone who chose a different ending. Granted, this will be the case if Bioware canonizes any of the chosen endings, but ties into #2.

2) Upsetting everyone when Bioware can't set the ending 1,000 years ahead of time, because for some reason it has to take place right after ME3. Why not a Destroy ending 1k years down the line?

3) Upsetting everyone who either doesn't know of IT or finds it completely ridiculous (yes, even more than the current endings).

4) Shepard needs to be an npc. Probably why I refuse to respect his position. Ignoring first that ME3 ending Shepard's story was established long before the endings, we now have to deal with import issues again and complaints regarding the canonization of Shepard. I suspect this is more for his personal fanfiction than any actual dislike of the endings, since most other happy ending campaigners are simply content with Shepard living through ME3, which I think is acceptable.

5) In addition, IT is not actually an ending since it requires that Shepard wakes up in the rubble. This means ME3 actively ended before any conclusion of either the Reaper threat, TIM, or Anderson meaning that Bioware needs to find a way to retroactively explain what the Crucible did and what happened to everyone.

One of the points of the Retake movement was that everyone hated the endings for a different reason. Well, if ME4 follows his suggestion, everyone's going to hate the intro for a different reason. His requirements for ME4 are far too demanding in terms of resources and excluding others for me to have any respect for his position. None of what he's asking for is strictly speaking tied into the endings. ME3 is not the first Bioware game with diverse conclusions, just the first with fan outrage.

As I said, any Bioware sequel can be handled the same way with someone demanding the return of a protagonist, the canonization of a specific ending, etc. If he doesn't want to buy ME4, fine. But refusing to purchase any EA game because Bioware wants some degree of creative control in deciding their next installment is pathetic at best.

The clean slate leaves everyone on equal terms. Bioware doesn't address the endings or worry about pissing anyone off by selectively ignoring endings. They just say "new beginning".

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 23 juillet 2013 - 07:05 .


#148
AlanC9

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Someone demanding that IT be canonized deserves respect?

#149
BaladasDemnevanni

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AlanC9 wrote...

Someone demanding that IT be canonized deserves respect?


I wrote a bit of an essay there (sorry, all) but I could've sworn I said the opposite. Image IPB

#150
AlanC9

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iakus wrote...
Specifics aside, what Bioware does need to do (imo, anyway) is take the "the endings were bad" position seriously.  Whatever specific reasons individual people hold, the endings were not popular.  At all. 


Does this imply any particular set of actions? Or would it be OK for Bio to just feel your pain,m so to speak?