199 réponses à ce sujet

[PinkysPain]

alleyd wrote...
but the real damage of being a credible and focussed role playing experience was set in place with the beginiing.

I still place the descent into madness with Arrival.

[Erez Kristal]

PinkysPain wrote...

alleyd wrote...
but the real damage of being a credible and focussed role playing experience was set in place with the beginiing.

I still place the descent into madness with Arrival.

arrival started the rumors about the reapers strolling into the galaxy. it was the mass effect 3 intro which confirmed it.
the reapers strolling in was second worse thing that when wrong in the intro, the first was hijack of shepard.

[Sir DeLoria]

Enhanced wrote...

Because Shepard isn't shown living happily ever after with his or her L.I.

[Bizantura]

I still enjoy playing ME3 regardless of weak story in beginning and awfull ending. Overall ME3 and the trilogy as a whole has been worth my money as I count the hours I've played and still playing.

[KaiserShep]

erezike wrote...

PinkysPain wrote...

alleyd wrote...
but the real damage of being a credible and focussed role playing experience was set in place with the beginiing.

I still place the descent into madness with Arrival.

arrival started the rumors about the reapers strolling into the galaxy. it was the mass effect 3 intro which confirmed it.
the reapers strolling in was second worse thing that when wrong in the intro, the first was hijack of shepard.

Mass Effect 2 didn't just have "rumors". The ending of the main game and the Arrival confirmed that they were coming. 

[Erez Kristal]

KaiserShep wrote...


Mass Effect 2 didn't just have "rumors". The ending of the main game and the Arrival confirmed that they were coming. 

ok i will play ball  
What were your evidence that the reapers were coming? 

[AlanC9]

alleyd wrote...

My point was Cerberus are considered Terrorist by the Council, but all I saw in the first 2 games was that they operated in the same way that the Council Races do themselves. Salarian do biological weapons testing on Surkesh. Turians use WMD's as a first resort, Asari use political subterfuge.

Sure. "Terrorist" is what you get called when you do those things but you're not part of the accepted power structure.

[KaiserShep]

erezike wrote...
ok i will play ball  
What were your evidence that the reapers were coming? 
[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

Something tells me that the very obvious image of the reapers actually traveling toward the galaxy, which serves no other purpose than to confirm their impending arrival on the part of the devs, is somehow no longer evidence to you. This is a very clear device used to promise the events that happen in the intro of Mass Effect 3. There's no way around it. The narrative itself has been pushing the impending reaper arrival since ME1, though ME1 is questionable as Shepard had no reason to believe that they were still coming, despite the Citadel relay remaining closed and Sovereign being killed.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 19 juillet 2013 - 04:02 .

[Erez Kristal]

A very obvious picture of the reapers travelling towards the galaxy? All shepard recieve is some signal and more visions of the reapers from the artifact. the player and shepard have no idea when the reaers will arrive.
It could be a month. it could be a hundred years and could also be they will run out of fuel and never arrive.

Your interpertation of the cutscene, is just that interpertation.
Unless you have clear evidence as to when the reapers are to arrive from mass effect 2. then i see no reason why to further discuss this.

Maybe they were advancing on the alpha relay, maybe they werent.
Maybe the alpha relay explosion killed them all, maybe they didnt.

So much speculation and again thats not even the main problem of me3
They could have easily created a decent plot which followed me2 and had a decent solution to the reapers threat.

Modifié par erezike, 19 juillet 2013 - 04:13 .

[Reorte]

erezike wrote...

A very obvious picture of the reapers travelling towards the galaxy? All shepard recieve is some signal and more visions of the reapers from the artifact. the player and shepard have no idea when the reaers will arrive.
It could be a month. it could be a hundred years and could also be they will run out of fuel and never arrive.

Your interpertation of the cutscene, is just that interpertation.
Unless you have clear evidence as to when the reapers are to arrive from mass effect 2. then i see no reason why to further discuss this.

Maybe they were advancing on the alpha relay, maybe they werent.
Maybe the alpha relay explosion killed them all, maybe they didnt.

So much speculation and again thats not even the main problem of me3
They could have easily created a decent plot which followed me2 and had a decent solution to the reapers threat.

You've certainly got information that they're on the way from the closing scene of ME2 after the SM, and if you let the clock run down in Arrival. Shepard himself has less clear evidence.

[Erez Kristal]

Reorte wrote...

You've certainly got information that they're on the way from the closing scene of ME2 after the SM, and if you let the clock run down in Arrival. Shepard himself has less clear evidence.

Your information is a cutscene of the reapers in space.
That information is worth nothing(look in my previous post for further explanation.)

As for arrival, Waiting for that clock to run down could mean that object rho as managed to overpower you, nothing more.
You dont see any clear visuals at any given time from shepard view point which will lndicate the immediate reapers arrival

Nor do you know that if the alpha relay is destroyed and the reapers were in fact on their way that they will still be coming.

[HellbirdIV]

alleyd wrote...

Salarian do biological weapons testing on Surkesh.

Biological weapons development. That's not illegal, most modern nations have military research and development.

They do, however, run tests on sapient species such as the yahg. That's amoral, yet not to the same degree as deliberately killing humans to run tests on their bodies, as Cerberus does.

alleyd wrote...

Turians use WMD's as a first resort

False. Turian military doctrine favours conquest and occupation over mass destruction. The use of WMDs is illegal on garden worlds - a law that the turians enforce very strictly after the krogan used WMDs on turian colonies during the rebellions.

alleyd wrote...

Asari use political subterfuge

Which is another way to say asari use diplomacy. What's your point?

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 19 juillet 2013 - 04:21 .

[Erez Kristal]

Hellbird we get it, you dont like cerberus.
http://social.biowar...16712541-1.html

[Reorte]

erezike wrote...

Reorte wrote...

You've certainly got information that they're on the way from the closing scene of ME2 after the SM, and if you let the clock run down in Arrival. Shepard himself has less clear evidence.

Your information is a cutscene of the reapers in space.
That information is worth nothing(look in my previous post for further explanation.)

As for arrival, Waiting for that clock to run down could mean that object rho as managed to overpower you, nothing more.
You dont see any clear visuals at any given time from shepard view point which will lndicate the immediate reapers arrival

Nor do you know that if the alpha relay is destroyed and the reapers were in fact on their way that they will still be coming.

And I said that's true from Shepard's point of view, but from the player's point of view it isn't. I'm pretty sure though that you see the Reapers turn up if you let the clock run down (the last part of it, when you're trying to get communications up).

As for a bunch of Reapers in space the scene is in there to show that they're coming. Like the breath scene it doesn't actually say anything useful in its own right and unfortunately relies on "it wouldn't be in there otherwise if that isn't what it meant" (always a pathetically hopeless way of showing anything), but that's what it's for.

[Cainhurst Crow]

o Ventus wrote...

As dumb as the intro is, it doesn't commit thematic suicide and question the plot to both previous games.

Leave that for the ending.

The **** does thematic suicide even mean?

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Reorte wrote...

As for a bunch of Reapers in space the scene is in there to show that they're coming. Like the breath scene it doesn't actually say anything useful in its own right and unfortunately relies on "it wouldn't be in there otherwise if that isn't what it meant" (always a pathetically hopeless way of showing anything), but that's what it's for.

It's a simple case of narrative intent. While the characters themselves aren't always aware of these elements, as the audience we are and expect certain events to necessarily happen from a dramatic standpoint.

Ex: ME1 and ME2 build up this confrontation with the Reapers, culminating in that cutscene at ME2's conclusion. It would be anticlimactic if while traveling through Dark Space all the Reapers' engines simply gave out and died. It's theoretically possible, but makes for a crappy story.

[sharkboy421]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

As dumb as the intro is, it doesn't commit thematic suicide and question the plot to both previous games.

Leave that for the ending.

The **** does thematic suicide even mean?

I agree with o Ventus and I believe I have the same definition for "thematic suicide" or at least we share the same feeling over the ending.  If I am speaking in error then I apologize Ventus but this is what I believe was meant Brotarian.

The ending of ME3 focuses on themes and ideas that, while certainly present in ME, were never put into focus as the most important or driving force of the trilogy.  To have them become the focus in the final moments of a 100+ hour journey is quite jarring and is very poor story telling.

Edit: Brotarian your avatar is awesome.

Modifié par sharkboy421, 19 juillet 2013 - 06:07 .

[KaiserShep]

It occurs to me that the very title of this thread makes the subject a complete farce.

[Cainhurst Crow]

sharkboy421 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

As dumb as the intro is, it doesn't commit thematic suicide and question the plot to both previous games.

Leave that for the ending.

The **** does thematic suicide even mean?

I agree with o Ventus and I believe I have the same definition for "thematic suicide" or at least we share the same feeling over the ending.  If I am speaking in error then I apologize Ventus but this is what I believe was meant Brotarian.

The ending of ME3 focuses on themes and ideas that, while certainly present in ME, were never put into focus as the most important or driving force of the trilogy.  To have them become the focus in the final moments of a 100+ hour journey is quite jarring and is very poor story telling.

Edit: Brotarian your avatar is awesome.

Still don't understand how that beget's "suicide" as part of it's description.

Thematic derailment perhaps, but thematic suicide, to me, would be something like a gainax style ending where the twist is less taking it's focus to a lesser theme, than taking it to a theme never touched on at all.

For example, if instead of the reapers harvesting organic life because of a technological singularity or whatever, they were harvesting us because freethought damanges their psychic link but that they were bound by the laws of gothmock to give us a fighting chance against them and only wipe us out every 50,000 years. Also, shepard would become deadpool and constantly talk to the player, asking him questions like "why'd you pick this as my face?" or "really? you made me romance him/her?"

[Erez Kristal]

Reorte wrote...

And I said that's true from Shepard's point of view, but from the player's point of view it isn't. I'm pretty sure though that you see the Reapers turn up if you let the clock run down (the last part of it, when you're trying to get communications up).

As for a bunch of Reapers in space the scene is in there to show that they're coming. Like the breath scene it doesn't actually say anything useful in its own right and unfortunately relies on "it wouldn't be in there otherwise if that isn't what it meant" (always a pathetically hopeless way of showing anything), but that's what it's for.

Since im also a player, i can tell that the ending cutscenes in arrival and mass effect 2 are open to interpretation, i know the reapers are on their way. but i have no idea when they will be arriving or how.
it could be anywhere from 2 days to 2000 years

If you let the clock run down, you see a set of blurry images, just like the prothean beacon  on eden prime, nothing really convincing.

The breathing scene also leaves things open for interpretation, is it shepard last dying breath? will he survive? was it all a dream? is the war over?
Where am I? will i make it?

Bottom line, the way you are looking at it is totally acceptable but its not the only way.

KaiserShep wrote...

It occurs to me that the very title of this thread makes the subject a complete farce.

 Ahh insulting the thread. the infamous tactic used by people who have no more claims to support their baseless arguments. 

Modifié par erezike, 19 juillet 2013 - 06:26 .

[sharkboy421]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Still don't understand how that beget's "suicide" as part of it's description.

Thematic derailment perhaps, but thematic suicide, to me, would be something like a gainax style ending where the twist is less taking it's focus to a lesser theme, than taking it to a theme never touched on at all.

For example, if instead of the reapers harvesting organic life because of a technological singularity or whatever, they were harvesting us because freethought damanges their psychic link but that they were bound by the laws of gothmock to give us a fighting chance against them and only wipe us out every 50,000 years. Also, shepard would become deadpool and constantly talk to the player, asking him questions like "why'd you pick this as my face?" or "really? you made me romance him/her?"

Fair enough about suicide.  Though I do believe there is an arguement to be made that the ending touches very heavily on the idea of a technological singularity, something which is never  discussed in the game until that point.  In that case I think "thematic suicide" would be appropriate.

However, take my words with a grain of salt as I am answering on behalf of Ventus when I probably shouldn't be <.<.  In any case, I feel whether you want to call it "thematic suicide" or just derailment, the point of the endings changing focus remains.  For me, this is the biggest flaw with the endings.

[KaiserShep]

erezike wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

It occurs to me that the very title of this thread makes the subject a complete farce.

 Ahh insulting the thread. the infamous tactic used by people who have no more claims to support their baseless arguments. 

Consider for a moment that there have been plenty of articles and countless responses from many different fans on what they thought of the endings, and it wasn't as if everyone was being an incoherent crybaby about what it is they disapprove of, or why they were so disappointed by the things that happen at the end of the game, yet you never understood? Come on. It's one thing to disagree, but it's an entirely different thing to be simply not understand. It basically crosses into wilful ignorance territory. 

Which argument of mine have you determined to be baseless? 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 19 juillet 2013 - 06:32 .

[Erez Kristal]

The arguments you raised earlier on me3 shorcoming due to me 2 actions.

As for the title the headline of this thread. if you read through the first post and the rest of my threads(which i know you do) you see that i aswell find to be ending extremely bad.
I wanted to point out that it was the beginning of the game which caused all the mess.