164 réponses à ce sujet

[AshedMan]

The Witcher is a proper RPG. Mass Effect 3 is just a third person shooter.

[xNYROx]

In response to the "chart" of politics.

If you take this chart at the bottom of this page http://www.uesp.net/...rowind:Factions and make it into an illustrated chart like that It would be probably twice the size. Just saying. I can draw you one if you like,  don't make fun of my crappy illustration skills though lol.

For instance, House Hlaalu secretely supports the commona tong but plays kissy face with the empire for the money. The comona tong however openly oppose the empire..yada yada yada....these things go so far in depth it would take forever to explain but you get the gist.

Another instance is the Empire secretly helps fund the Twin Lamps but will arrest them if caught in public in order to save face with the morrowind local government. Geez, you got me started....im going to take a nap before I write you a freaking guide or something lol.

Modifié par xNYROx, 20 juillet 2013 - 02:54 .

[billy the squid]

The difference being, as I said that the ES, does not deal with those politics on a significant geo political level like TW2 does. ES games have a huge amount of background and lore, but the plot and story revolves around the player, with the politics being in simply detail, rather than a tangible effect in a significant way, while the player rises to power.

TW2 geo politics in the Northern Kingdoms are front and center in the story, and while plot is Geralt's need to discover the identity of the Kingslayer to clear himself of regicide. The difference being that Geralt has a direct effect on the geo politics in the game, but events will still take place in one form or another, even being the White Wolf, he's not going to stop a massive Nilfgaardian invasion or civil war in Temaria.

The difference being ES does not place geo politics in more than a background position, giving the details, but it never affects that actual story, other than setting up an introduction.

[MerinTB]

You know, I see why people love TW2. I do. And I greatly admire the C&C in TW2.

TW2 just didn't work for me. And I wanted to like it. A lot, actually.

I guess I just don't like Geralt, that could be the biggest reason. Oh, and I cannot stand Dandelion nor Triss. I think I almost dislike Triss to the Isabela level, which is bad.

On balance, then, I "liked" ME3 more than TW2 though, honestly, I had fun with TW2 and didn't want to tear my hair out at it's ending... so it's not great praise for ME3 there. On balance, maybe I should say I liked TW2 more than ME3 then... I dunno.

DA:O, however, I consider a much better, more enjoyable game than TW2. Even if TW2 edges it out, a tad, with the C&C and with a more mature (ha ha, poke fun now, show YOUR maturity!) take on relationships as a whole.

[xNYROx]

billy the squid wrote...

The difference being, as I said that the ES, does not deal with those politics on a significant geo political level like TW2 does. ES games have a huge amount of background and lore, but the plot and story revolves around the player, with the politics being in simply detail, rather than a tangible effect in a significant way, while the player rises to power.

TW2 geo politics in the Northern Kingdoms are front and center in the story, and while plot is Geralt's need to discover the identity of the Kingslayer to clear himself of regicide. The difference being that Geralt has a direct effect on the geo politics in the game, but events will still take place in one form or another, even being the White Wolf, he's not going to stop a massive Nilfgaardian invasion or civil war in Temaria.

The difference being ES does not place geo politics in more than a background position, giving the details, but it never affects that actual story, other than setting up an introduction.

Just not understanding where you are coming from, Morrowinds main storyline is political. You need allies and factions in it. You are the rightful neverene who was shipped off to prison by an enemy that knew your time of rule was coming. That is totally political to overthrow someone and then having to talk/fight/work your way back into society and all that from the bottom. For instance if you finish the empire questline they will help you later on in the main questline if not they wont and you have to work harder. If you help the thieves guild defend themselves against the fighters guild the fighters guild numbers dwindle down and are unable to ally with house redoran which can then be taken over by house hlaalu. I would have to replay to give you more examples without googling but i mean there are political consequences and advantages that effect gameplay.

Modifié par xNYROx, 20 juillet 2013 - 03:26 .

[The Heretic of Time]

EntropicAngel wrote...

GTFO

These topics need to DIE, just DIE already. Sheesh.

Calm the f- down.

I agree with you, but still, calm the f- down.

I've played both and ME3 was far better. ME3 has a better cast, vastly superior gameplay...

How is the cast better? And how is the gameplay superior?

You can't even compare the gameplay. They're too different. Mass Effect is a shooter, while The Witcher is a hack-n-slash. You're trying to compare apples to oranges here.

The ME universe, though, is the real hook of Bioware games that other companies have yet to successfully synthesize.

The Witcher universe is both bigger and deeper than the Mass Effect universe. The Witcher has 2 games, 7 novels, a comic and a TV series. All of them are pretty deep and well-written (aside from the TV series, most Witcher fans try to forget about the existence of that abomination).

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 20 juillet 2013 - 03:39 .

[xNYROx]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

GTFO

These topics need to DIE, just DIE already. Sheesh.

Calm the f- down.

I agree with you, but still, calm the f- down.

I've played both and ME3 was far better. ME3 has a better cast, vastly superior gameplay...

How is the cast better? And how is the gameplay superior?

You can't even compare the gameplay. They're too different. Mass Effect is a shooter, while The Witcher is a hack-n-slash. You're trying to compare apples to oranges here.

The ME universe, though, is the real hook of Bioware games that other companies have yet to successfully synthesize.

The Witcher universe is both bigger and deeper than the Mass Effect universe. The Witcher has 2 games, 7 novels, a comic and a TV series. All of them are pretty deep and well-written (aside from the TV series, most Witcher fans try to forget about the existence of that abomination).

Had no clue they had a TV series!

Anyways, it seems pretty even, Mass effect has that movie(which sucks), a real life one in the making. 16 released comics and a 36 comic series coming soon starting this month. 4 novels and 3 games.

[slimgrin]

xNYROx wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Witcher 2 is usual rpg stuff? Wow. I'd like to know what rpg's you're playing that have such a sophisticated political story line.

How about the game the creaters admitted they got the political idea off of and built on it? Morrowind. TeS games have always had high focus on the political undertones of society. Surely you didn't miss that? Politics and racism are a huge part of the Elder Scrolls games.

Matter of fact, Morrowind was also a world in political strife very much so. I mean it would not be hard to point out similarities and I am sure the list would number in the hundreds if we tried.

You got a link for that? I've never heard of that once in the 4+ years I've been on the TW forums. I do know they've mentioned the books in this regard. Dozens of times. And if you read the books, it's apparant Sapkowski is the starting point for their political ideas.

Modifié par slimgrin, 20 juillet 2013 - 03:49 .

[The Heretic of Time]

xNYROx wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

The Witcher universe is both bigger and deeper than the Mass Effect universe. The Witcher has 2 games, 7 novels, a comic and a TV series. All of them are pretty deep and well-written (aside from the TV series, most Witcher fans try to forget about the existence of that abomination).

Had no clue they had a TV series!

Anyways, it seems pretty even, Mass effect has that movie(which sucks), a real life one in the making. 16 released comics and a 36 comic series coming soon starting this month. 4 novels and 3 games.

Yeah, the TV series sucks though. Still, it's better than that piece of crap Mass Effect anime, that's for sure.

The difference is though that all those Mass Effect novels and comics are pretty shallow and merely small side-stories, background stories or character-history stories. The novels also leave things to be desired. I loved Mass Effect: Revelation and I thought Mass Effect: Retribution was decently written. But Mass Effect: Ascension was pretty "meh", while Mass Effect: Deception is just pure and utter crap.

Meanwhile, all 7 Witcher books are deep novels that all contribute to expanding the world and the main story.


Edit: I guess the reason why The Witcher's story is deeper and more mature is because it started as a novel series and became a video-game series later, while Mass Effect started as a video-game series with some novels on the side.

Novels stories > video-game stories (most of the time).

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 20 juillet 2013 - 03:54 .

[slimgrin]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...



Edit: I guess the reason why The Witcher's story is deeper and more mature is because it started as a novel series and became a video-game series later, while Mass Effect started as a video-game series with some novels on the side.

Novels stories > video-game stories (most of the time).

Yep. Novels written over many years that deal with socio-political and philosophical ideas. They draw from histroy, fairytales and folklore, cleverly subverting them at every turn. Basically, CDPR could hit the ground running by adapating Sapkowski's ideas instead of having to create a universe from scratch in 2-3 years time like most game devs. This is why imo few if any other game franchises equal the story telling and lore of TW. It'd be like comparing Mass Effect to Tolkein or GRR Martin.

Modifié par slimgrin, 20 juillet 2013 - 05:33 .

[billy the squid]

xNYROx wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

The difference being, as I said that the ES, does not deal with those politics on a significant geo political level like TW2 does. ES games have a huge amount of background and lore, but the plot and story revolves around the player, with the politics being in simply detail, rather than a tangible effect in a significant way, while the player rises to power.

TW2 geo politics in the Northern Kingdoms are front and center in the story, and while plot is Geralt's need to discover the identity of the Kingslayer to clear himself of regicide. The difference being that Geralt has a direct effect on the geo politics in the game, but events will still take place in one form or another, even being the White Wolf, he's not going to stop a massive Nilfgaardian invasion or civil war in Temaria.

The difference being ES does not place geo politics in more than a background position, giving the details, but it never affects that actual story, other than setting up an introduction.

Just not understanding where you are coming from, Morrowinds main storyline is political. You need allies and factions in it. You are the rightful neverene who was shipped off to prison by an enemy that knew your time of rule was coming. That is totally political to overthrow someone and then having to talk/fight/work your way back into society and all that from the bottom. For instance if you finish the empire questline they will help you later on in the main questline if not they wont and you have to work harder. If you help the thieves guild defend themselves against the fighters guild the fighters guild numbers dwindle down and are unable to ally with house redoran which can then be taken over by house hlaalu. I would have to replay to give you more examples without googling but i mean there are political consequences and advantages that effect gameplay.

I can't comment specifically on Morrowind as it's been so long since I played it. But, your description is precisely what I mean by background politics within the story. The detail is there, and that's something the ES series has always done very well. It's not political, it's a mask that Morrowind uses to cover the standard context it's used so many times, imprisonment, escape, ascend to the heights of power by achiveing quests. It doesn't go any deeper than that, they did it in Skyrim as well. The Stormcloaks and the Empire's conflict remaining in the background throughout the game, and the political alliances of each faction are there, but they don't have a significant impact on the game itself. 

Politics there background details and a lower priority, while geo politics are non existant to the central plot whereby the character regains power.

If I side with the Scoi'atel in TW2 I miss half the game, the same as if I side with the Blue stripes. My actoins have a huge effect in that I have to play the game at least twice to cover every event. If I side with the former I go to Aedern, in the Pontar valley, if I side with the latter then I have to meet with Henselt of Kedwini, and then it continues to branch from there. That's true political factionalism. I can't side with one without making an enemy of the other, or placing Geral in a position where he is forced to forgo an alliance.

For instance, in Aedern, I have to conduct a trial when Saskia is poisoned, do I side with Stannis, knowing he poisnoed the Dragon slayer, but possibly uniting Aedern, or helping Saskia, in which case the Pontar valley scedes from Aedern, but might not stand against the Nilfgarrdian invasion, or even Henselt's invasion from the East. All the time the Nilfgarrdian Emperor has been controlling the Kingslayers, and using them to destabalise the region for the coming invasion, the lodge of sorcerecess has been trying to take the Pontar valley for themselves by manipulating the rebles and controlling Saskia. And it gets even more convoluted when those events have further impacts on the region.

That would be geo politics. 

[xNYROx]

billy the squid wrote...

xNYROx wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

The difference being, as I said that the ES, does not deal with those politics on a significant geo political level like TW2 does. ES games have a huge amount of background and lore, but the plot and story revolves around the player, with the politics being in simply detail, rather than a tangible effect in a significant way, while the player rises to power.

TW2 geo politics in the Northern Kingdoms are front and center in the story, and while plot is Geralt's need to discover the identity of the Kingslayer to clear himself of regicide. The difference being that Geralt has a direct effect on the geo politics in the game, but events will still take place in one form or another, even being the White Wolf, he's not going to stop a massive Nilfgaardian invasion or civil war in Temaria.

The difference being ES does not place geo politics in more than a background position, giving the details, but it never affects that actual story, other than setting up an introduction.

Just not understanding where you are coming from, Morrowinds main storyline is political. You need allies and factions in it. You are the rightful neverene who was shipped off to prison by an enemy that knew your time of rule was coming. That is totally political to overthrow someone and then having to talk/fight/work your way back into society and all that from the bottom. For instance if you finish the empire questline they will help you later on in the main questline if not they wont and you have to work harder. If you help the thieves guild defend themselves against the fighters guild the fighters guild numbers dwindle down and are unable to ally with house redoran which can then be taken over by house hlaalu. I would have to replay to give you more examples without googling but i mean there are political consequences and advantages that effect gameplay.

I can't comment specifically on Morrowind as it's been so long since I played it. But, your description is precisely what I mean by background politics within the story. The detail is there, and that's something the ES series has always done very well. It's not political, it's a mask that Morrowind uses to cover the standard context it's used so many times, imprisonment, escape, ascend to the heights of power by achiveing quests. It doesn't go any deeper than that, they did it in Skyrim as well. The Stormcloaks and the Empire's conflict remaining in the background throughout the game, and the political alliances of each faction are there, but they don't have a significant impact on the game itself. 

Politics there background details and a lower priority, while geo politics are non existant to the central plot whereby the character regains power.

If I side with the Scoi'atel in TW2 I miss half the game, the same as if I side with the Blue stripes. My actoins have a huge effect in that I have to play the game at least twice to cover every event. If I side with the former I go to Aedern, in the Pontar valley, if I side with the latter then I have to meet with Henselt of Kedwini, and then it continues to branch from there. That's true political factionalism. I can't side with one without making an enemy of the other, or placing Geral in a position where he is forced to forgo an alliance.

For instance, in Aedern, I have to conduct a trial when Saskia is poisoned, do I side with Stannis, knowing he poisnoed the Dragon slayer, but possibly uniting Aedern, or helping Saskia, in which case the Pontar valley scedes from Aedern, but might not stand against the Nilfgarrdian invasion, or even Henselt's invasion from the East. All the time the Nilfgarrdian Emperor has been controlling the Kingslayers, and using them to destabalise the region for the coming invasion, the lodge of sorcerecess has been trying to take the Pontar valley for themselves by manipulating the rebles and controlling Saskia. And it gets even more convoluted when those events have further impacts on the region.

That would be geo politics. 

Still not understanding, you can't join every faction on TeS games either and if you want to experience the entire game via factions you would have to play through more then once also. Well maybe in Oblivion you could join every faction but that is the only one and it sucks lol.

Modifié par xNYROx, 20 juillet 2013 - 05:16 .

[IntoTheDarkness]

billy the squid wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Witcher 2 is usual rpg stuff? Wow. I'd like to know what rpg's you're playing that have such a sophisticated political story line.

Is that the only game where politcal sophistication means something to you? Seriously, the ES series has that in it. Mass Effect, Dragon age and Deus Ex especially as well. I could go on and on. You're bringing something into the discussion that's relevant to many games that have deep storylines.

The ES series has done the various factions well in terms of detail in each faction, as well as their agendas, and political leanings, Skyrim is a good example. But it's never shown in the game itself, you never deal with it, or at least not on a significant level geo political level, it's discussed and explained in books and back stories. But, beyond the rising to prominence of your character, the actual politics of the region are left hanging.

Politics in Mass effect pfffffft. What one considers politics in ME is a steaming pile of crap by comparison. It doesn't even try to deal with intergalactic politics, and come sat the bottom of the heap. It's fine if the game didn't really intend to deal with it in more that a passing fancy as background. Saying it's better that the TW2, ES or even DA is daft. 

DA2's politics is horse ****, there's no other word for it. And DAO is mediocre, focusing on the player, with the politics playinfg second fiddle in the back ground, the game being the standard fantasy trope.

Deaus Ex HR has espionage and factionalism, it raises some interesting points and I enjoyed the various agendas of groups, Corporations and the examination of the divide between augments and non augments. 

TW2 I actually have to resort to a flow chart to explain the politics so I don't cover a page of detailed explaination regarding the possible outcomes, and that's not even starting with giving details of the various factions and kingdoms throughout the game, which are more detailed that the ES series has delivered and, the ES series puts ME and DA to shame.

100% agreed. What I meant by Morrowind being static and generic power struggle.

Estalbishing background and settings easy because they don't change over the course of the game other than the main character's prominence as you said. Blizzard games have politics and many facitons, but I wouldn't put them on the same level as TW2. The same goes for ES, ME, DA.

Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 20 juillet 2013 - 05:24 .

[The Heretic of Time]

In terms of politics and the depth of it:

The Witcher > The Elder Scrolls > Dragon Age > Mass Effect


Edit: correction, it's more like this:

The Witcher > The Elder Scrolls > Dragon Age >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mass Effect


The "politics" in Mass Effect are a joke.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 20 juillet 2013 - 05:43 .

[IntoTheDarkness]

xNYROx wrote...

In response to the "chart" of politics.

If you take this chart at the bottom of this page http://www.uesp.net/...rowind:Factions and make it into an illustrated chart like that It would be probably twice the size. Just saying. I can draw you one if you like,  don't make fun of my crappy illustration skills though lol.

For instance, House Hlaalu secretely supports the commona tong but plays kissy face with the empire for the money. The comona tong however openly oppose the empire..yada yada yada....these things go so far in depth it would take forever to explain but you get the gist.

Another instance is the Empire secretly helps fund the Twin Lamps but will arrest them if caught in public in order to save face with the morrowind local government. Geez, you got me started....im going to take a nap before I write you a freaking guide or something lol.

I actually recently played Morrowind and finished it about a month ago. I completed most quests over 100+ hours of gameplay.

Morrowind politics really don't go anywhere where the main character is not involved. The Witcher 2 is special not because it's a mere improvement over groundwork of political depictions found in other games but because the world moves on even without Geralt's invovlement. Take Letho for example. His master plans change over the course the of game without you even being aware of the change until the very end because of other factions' interference and undermining attempts. I've never seen such non-player-centric plots before in any video gaems.

 In TW2, I feel that the world will keep moving on in a different direction without the protagonist, rather than coming to a completely static state.

Morrowind factions' *conflicts* are better than ME or DA where different factions don't do much at all, but they are still very basic level of conflicts. Members of each faction ask the main character to sabotage another faction's work or assassinate their members, without much political considerations or any thoughts given to the consequences. They are mostly extension of fetch quests(go kill/steal/sabotage something and get rewards) and just because they involve two factions trying to undermine one another doesn't mean it's sohpisticated political depiction, though as I said earier, it makes ES politics better than DA and ME.

Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 20 juillet 2013 - 05:39 .

[xNYROx]

I never said it was more sophisticated I said TW2 took ideas that other games set the groundwork for as my very first post stated. There is no way Morrowind could be more sophisticated, it is what 10 years older? That would be absolutely disgraceful if it was.

Modifié par xNYROx, 20 juillet 2013 - 05:46 .

[FireAndBlood]

The only thing the Witcher 2 did better than ME3 was having a better ending.

[Costin_Razvan]

Liamv2 wrote...

I wish people would stop comparing games that have very little in common

Very little? Story focused RPGs, with action oriented combat set in a fictional universe that draws upon the real world heavily ( both TW series and ME series do this ) have very little in common?

I flat out disagree. There is plenty to compare between the two of them.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 20 juillet 2013 - 06:09 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

EntropicAngel wrote...

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

Morrowind politics isn't as complicated nor refined as TW2's politics. TW2 literally has over 10 factions *actively* vying and plotting to push their interest where as in Morrowind it's pretty much static, generic power struggle between many identical religious, house factions. TW2 has no equals in this field of portraying political intrigues. Game of Thones RPG comes close.

That's extremely disingenuous--the game only really makes note of about four or five.

Untrue. There are about 14 factions in the game, both major (8) and minor (6), that have a hug role in the plot, whether it's in the Act itself  and / or the general geo-politics of the game. 

And it goes beyond that, because there is thematic pertinence behind this web of struggles. It's not simply just people fighting for their interests. 

[xNYROx]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

These threads always seem like flamebait to me, but sure, I'll play ball.

Graphics: TW2
Sound (music, voice acting, etc.): ME3
Choices and consequences: TW2
Gameplay: ME3
Plot: TW2 by a large margin
Overall: TW2

Doesn't TW2 use redengine with havoc physics?

[slimgrin]

xNYROx wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

These threads always seem like flamebait to me, but sure, I'll play ball.

Graphics: TW2
Sound (music, voice acting, etc.): ME3
Choices and consequences: TW2
Gameplay: ME3
Plot: TW2 by a large margin
Overall: TW2

Doesn't TW2 use redengine with havoc physics?

Yep. RED Engine 3 will have DX11, Physyx and other new features.

Also, I disagree with your assertion that Morrowind laid the groundwork that TW built on. If anything, Bioware's early games were more of an influence on CDPR. The murky morality, multi-thread narrative and time delayed consequences are what the Witcher has contributed since it first relased.   

Modifié par slimgrin, 20 juillet 2013 - 07:27 .

[xNYROx]

slimgrin wrote...

xNYROx wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

These threads always seem like flamebait to me, but sure, I'll play ball.

Graphics: TW2
Sound (music, voice acting, etc.): ME3
Choices and consequences: TW2
Gameplay: ME3
Plot: TW2 by a large margin
Overall: TW2

Doesn't TW2 use redengine with havoc physics?

Yep. RED Engine 3 will have DX11, Physyx and other new features.

Also, I disagree with your assertion that Morrowind laid the groundwork that TW built on. If anything, Bioware's early games were more of an influence on CDPR. 

Which Bioware early works? Baldur's gate? lol. Not much in the RPG world that came earlier then morrowind from Bioware.

Modifié par xNYROx, 20 juillet 2013 - 07:34 .