164 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

Mr.House wrote...

You are trying to argue something when you don't have the full picture. Kingslayers and Nilfgaard are their own factions as both still have their own motives and other plots in the work that the other faction is not doing or know of(some of which is only showen on Iorveths side) same with Saskia.

Granted, they're acting for Nilfaard under the promise of rebuilding the Viper School, but I don't think that's enough to constitute a separate faction. That would be like listing Letho as a separate faction if he were simply a paid mercenary.  

A key point here is: what does Nilfgaard get up to that the Kingslayers oppose, or vice versa? Letho being a separate faction from the Lodge? That makes sense. We see Letho and the Kingslayers purposely take actions against Sile's goals. Not so with Nilfgaard, far as I remember.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Il Divo wrote...
A key point here is: what does Nilfgaard get up to that the Kingslayers oppose, or vice versa? Letho being a separate faction from the Lodge? That makes sense.  

Well Letho sparing Geralt might be considered jeopordizing the mission. Also, Letho freed Triss from the Nilfgaardians and protected her from them, for Geralt (if you don't save her yourself). 

Letho and Nilfgaard have an alliance of convenience. Letho wants something Nilfgaard can offer him and vice versa. But they do not want the same things exactly. Nilfgaard wants to conquer the North, Letho wants a Viper School. Sure Letho seems to admire Emhyr and like the South more (he is southerner himself), but we never got a sense of loyalty towards him or the Empire. 

Mercenary groups who act independelty and have a political role would be considered a facton in my books, but TW2 didn't have any (inded historically in some settings, mercenary companies played huge and decisive political roles). Letho was acting independantly through-out the game, and did play a substantial political role, primarily for his own interests, hence why I'd consider him a faction. 

It is possible, even likely that Emhyr would seek to make sure that the Vipers become part of Imperial intelligence or something to that effect, but in the game, Letho is not part of the Empire as such. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 juillet 2013 - 01:33 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Here, I made a side-by-side comparison between Mass Effect and The Witcher (both as series) and I'll try to be as objective as possible. Before you think I'll be biased because I'm a huge Witcher fan, keep in mind that I also used to be a huge  Mass Effect fan, before Mass Effect became terrible.

I'll judge both series on the aesthetics, the music and voice-acting, the story, the setting, the gameplay and the choices & consequences (c&c).

I'll rate each section from 1 to 10 and I'll try to give examples for both series in each section. The series that wins the most sections, wins the match.

Here we go:


Aesthetics:

The Witcher:
The Witcher has beautiful aesthetics in both the first and the second game. The world really comes to life in both games and the level of details in both games is simply amazing, despite the fact that the graphics in TW1 are a little dated and the animations look a bit robotic, but that's due to the lack of a proper engine (BioWare's Aurora engine). TW2 however makes up for everything TW1 lacked. The graphics are one of the best I've seen on PC, the animations are done rather well (though there is still room for improvement) and every setting looks beautiful, realistic and believable. What I love the most in both Witcher games are the little animals, such as goose that fly away when you approach them, little insects that crawl around in the grass and woods, the ducks that are chilling in the water of the rivers and ponds and the chickens that walk around on the streets of the towns and villages. It truly brings the world of The Witcher to life.
verdict: 9/10

Mass Effect:
Mass Effect is well known for its beautiful aesthetics. Especially ME1 for its time had amazing graphics, beautiful animations and the whole retro-sci-fi look and feel was simply amazing. The barren planets that you visit with the Mako however... look terrible (although the skyboxes in those levels are amazing). However, instead of improving on it, ME2 and especially ME3 became actually worse when it comes to aesthetics. Most of ME2's levels were dull warehouse corridors with chest-high cover conveniently placed everywhere. It didn't feel very believable anymore. ME3 somewhat improved on this, but still suffered from lackluster level- and enviroment-design. Still, Mass Effect as a whole is a good-looking series and really a piece of art when it comes to graphics and aesthetics.
verdict: 7/10

winner: The Witcher


Music:

The Witcher:
The Witcher has a very diverse soundtrack. from peaceful and serene tracks like this to heavy and epic battle music like this. One can't deny that The Witcher has beautiful well-crafted music that is above all original and very fitting for its East-European setting.
verdict: 9/10

Mass Effect:
Mass Effect's soundtrack is equally diverse, ranging from mesmerizing electronic synth tracks suck as this to epic blockbuster soundtracks such as this. Mass Effect, especially the first one, has an amazing Blade Runner vipe going on when it comes to music. The mix between modern blockbuster music and 80's sci-fi music ala Blade Runner really makes the Mass Effect soundtrack pleasant to the ears. Too bad the Blade Runner sound became less in the sequels. I really prefer the music of the first Mass Effect title.
verdict: 9/10

winner: none


Voice-acting:

The Witcher:
Some people don't like Geralt's monotone raspy voice, but I think it suits him. The voice-acting for the NPCs however range from very good to very bad. The voice-acting quality did vastly improve in TW2, but still, even in that game, some NPCs sounded just plain bad. Luckily, all the important characters have really marvelous voice-acting, which is the saving grace for The Witcher in this case.
verdict: 6/10

Mass Effect:
BioWare clearly went all-out when it came to gathering a cast of voice-actors. We can't deny the vast talent behind the voice-acting in Mass Effect. Some voice-actors were pretty damn mediocre (Ali Hillis as Liara), but no-one in Mass Effect sounds completely bad or unconvincing.
verdict: 8/10

winner: Mass Effect


Story:

The Witcher:
The story in The Witcher starts a little slow and it can be really confusing for those who have never read the novels. But when when the player reaches act 3 in TW1 the story really starts to become very engaging. By the time I reached arc 5, I was completely submerged in the story of TW1. I wanted more, and luckily I got more. TW2 gives us more of the same high-quality writing that we expect from The Witcher and it really ties in nicely with TW1. The politics is one of the best and most engaging part of The Witcher story and it really reaches the same hights and depth as other well-known medieval political stories such as A Song of Ice and Fire (Game of Thrones). The Witcher's story is pretty much the strongest part of the whole franchise and it's damn near perfect.
verdict: 9/10

Mass Effect:
Mass Effect is a tragic example of something that started great and had a lot of potential but ended in a disaster. Mass Effect starts off great. The protagonist seems interesting, the antagonist is interesting and the plot is what you expect from a sci-fi space-opera. The reapers are also very interesting enemies in ME1 and I was really curious what to expect next from this (so far) brilliant story. To bad it went all down hill with ME2. ME2 had a lot of potential and it did many things very well (Cerberus, the characters and their personal stories) but the overal plot and story felt very weak and mediocre. A lot of things in ME2, such as Project Lazarus and the Arrival DLC felt contrived and shallow. Then ME3 came in and everything went down the drain. Cerberus became two-dimensional villains, the already shallow politics of Mass Effect became even more shallow and ridiculous and the reapers turned out to be a big joke. Mass Effect has a lot of lore, too bad the quality of that lore is rather mediocre to complete crap. I think my verdict for Mass Effect's story is actually rather generous. I guess I'm being genrous because I used to be such a big fan of Mass Effect.
verdict: 4/10

winner: The Witcher


Setting:

The Witcher:
The setting of The Witcher at first glance is a typical medieval fantasy setting. However, people who look further into it see how original and believable the setting of The Witcher is. The elves, instead of being beautiful and intelligent people, are dirty rotten peasants who are generally hated. The Scoia'tael, an elven group of terrorists and bandits really give the elves a bad reputation. The humans are a nihilistic reflection of humanity in real-life and the dwarves are rude but cheerful folks who are also really intelligent. Engineers, philosphers and keen economic businessmen are not uncommon among the dwarves. Finally we have of course the witchers themselves. The witchers are warrior monks who are experts in martial-arts, sword-fighting, magic and alchemy. They are basically a cross-over between warriors, mages and monks, which really makes them unique.
The setting of The Witcher also has a lot of depth. Multiple legends, old stories and folklore, such as feared The Wild Hunt and the legendary Striga, are interwoven with the story and setting of The Witcher. While playing The Witcher, you'll discover a lot of unique species, monsters and places, which all get a nice journal entry in Geralt's journal. I could write entire essays on the setting of The Witcher and its depth, but I won't, at least not now.
verdict: 10/10

Mass Effect:
The setting of Mass Effect is a typical sci-fi space-opera setting that at first glance takes a lot of elements directly from Star Wars, Star Trek and Babylon 5. Mass Effect however manages to make these elements its own and turn it into something unique. Many of the races, although visually cliche and unrealistic (a race of blue hot babes, really?) are really cool and believable. It's especially fun to see how each race has its own unique oddities and quirks when you talk to them, however, you won't find many aliens that act outside of the established characteristics and traits of their species. Outside of a few exceptions, all krogans are always violent, all salarians are always intelligent and all volus are slow and socially awkward. The alien races with the most diverse and believable characters are clearly the turians and quarians (team dextro ftw).
The problem with Mass Effect however, is that BioWare creates a very interesting setting, and then does very little with it. We never really see how the different species interact and trade with each other, until ME3, where we have the political negotiations between the turians, salarians and krogan. And even then it's rather shallow and superficial. It's a shame, really, because I truly do think Mass Effect had a lot of potential to become a truly unique and deep sci-fi universe. But right now, it really isn't.
verdict: 6/10

winner: The Witcher


Gameplay:

The Witcher:
The gameplay in TW1 is just crap, period. Some people like it, but I really don't. It's unresponsive, repetitive, predictable and it has a reverse difficulty-curve (the game is super hard int he beginning, but super easy at the end).
The gameplay in TW2 is a lot better. It's more diverse, more responsive and less predictable or repetitive. It still suffers from a reverse difficulty-curve however and still not as responsive as it could or should be.
What I do like about The Witcher is the overal difficulty. Despite the fact that it has a reverse-difficulty curve, it's still reasonably difficult at the end of you play on Insane or Dark Mode. The best part of The Witcher is the Insane mode, which deletes all your save-files if you die. Pretty intense!
The gameplay in The Witcher as whole is not bad, but it's far from perfect. I'll give it a 6 for now, but I really hope TW3 will improve on the combat.
verdict: 6/10

Mass Effect:
The gameplay in ME1 is equally crap. The aiming and shooting mechanics are retarded, the cover-mechanics are pretty much non-existent and the classes are very imbalanced. Every class with immunity truly becomes immune to bullets on higher levels, even when you play on Insanity!
The gameplay in ME2 and ME3 is a lot better. ME2 implemented proper third-person shooter mechanics like Gears of War and ME3 introduced proper cover-mechanics and rolling-mechanics (also like Gears of War). It's good that BioWare took a good long look at Gears of War, the best third person shooter to date, it really improved the gamplay of Mass Effect!
Mass Effect 2 and 3 still suffer from bad game-mechanics though, such as the contrived Paragon/Renegade morality meter and cool-on-paper but terrible-in-practice dialogue wheel, but that is just minor stuff.
verdict: 8/10

winner: Mass Effect


Choices & Consequences:

The Witcher:
The Witcher really does c&c very well. What the creators of The Witcher understand is that choices should not only have consequences in the narrative (fluff) but also in the gameplay. Your choices in The Witcher decide where you go, who you fight and which direction the story takes. You can easily play The Witcher twice, and have truly different and truly unique experiences both times! Especially TW2 does this extremely well. The entire setting of Act 2 is completely different for Roche's path than it is for Ioverth's path!
When you reach the end of The Witcher, you really have the feeling that your choices mattered. That's a great feeling!
Too bad the save-import mechanics from TW1 to TW2 is a bit gimmicky and doesn't import all your choices, only a few. This means that some of your choices in TW1 might be retconned in TW2. Hopefully the import mechanic from TW2 to TW3 will be better!
verdict: 9/10

Mass Effect:
The c&c in Mass Effect is less than succesful. You make tons of choices in Mass Effect that in the end have very little impact on the story and even less impact on the gameplay. When the consequences to most of my choices are nothing more than a few meaningless numeral values (War Assets) I can't help but feel dissapointed. The genophage arc and the geth/quarian war arc are done rather well and those two arcs really made me feel like my choices did matter, but even those arcs don't even come close to the c&c of The Witcher.
Then, when I reach the end of Mass Effect 3 and realize that my choices really don't mean squad, I can't help but feel cheated.
The fact that the save-import mechanics of Mass Effect are vastly superior to the save-import mechanics of The Witcher doesn't mean squad when the consequences to my choices are nothing more than fluff and meaningless numberal values.
verdict: 2/10

winner: The Witcher


Final score:

The Witcher : 4
Mass Effect: 2


Final winner: The Witcher


I rest my case.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 21 juillet 2013 - 01:59 .

[The Heretic of Time]

EntropicAngel wrote...

It's quite fair. Video games are a different medium than books or movies or comics. They can supplement, but if they're necessary to understand the video game universe, you're doing it wrong.

Says who?


Edit: You don't really need the books to understand the Witcher universe though, but it does certainly help. But everything that it vital to the story of the games is covered in the games themselves, either in dialogue or in journal entries.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 21 juillet 2013 - 02:04 .

[The Heretic of Time]

xNYROx wrote...

If we are talking about fair though...it is also unfair the other way since The Witcher was a book series and had tons of merchandise wel before the game came out. Especially in europe

That's not unfair, that's smart.

CD Projekt RED, the developers of The Witcher games, were smart to choose an already established franchise for their RPG series.


Is it unfair that The Game of Thrones is so succesful because it's based on an already established novel series? Or is it just really smart from the creators of Game of Thrones?

[The Heretic of Time]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

That's not unfair, that's smart.

CD Projekt RED, the developers of The Witcher games, were smart to choose an already established franchise for their RPG series.


Is it unfair that The Game of Thrones is so succesful because it's based on an already established novel series? Or is it just really smart from the creators of Game of Thrones?

It's "unfair" from the point of comparing the two series'--one was conceived as a video game, the other was copy/pasted from novels--which, in my opinion, are pretty much always better than video games (exclusing novels made purely to tie-in to video games).

Nothing is copy-pasted in the Witcher video-games...

The thing is, story in The Witcher games aren't good because of the novels. The novels merely helped establishing the setting, characters and background stories, but the main plot and main story of The Witcher, which is very good, mature and deep, is 100% created by CD Projekt RED specifically for the video-games. 

[slimgrin]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

That's not unfair, that's smart.

CD Projekt RED, the developers of The Witcher games, were smart to choose an already established franchise for their RPG series.


Is it unfair that The Game of Thrones is so succesful because it's based on an already established novel series? Or is it just really smart from the creators of Game of Thrones?

It's "unfair" from the point of comparing the two series'--one was conceived as a video game, the other was copy/pasted from novels--which, in my opinion, are pretty much always better than video games (exclusing novels made purely to tie-in to video games).

Nothing is copy-pasted in the Witcher video-games...

The thing is, story in The Witcher games aren't good because of the novels. The novels merely helped establishing the setting, characters and background stories, but the main plot and main story of The Witcher, which is very good, mature and deep, is 100% created by CD Projekt RED specifically for the video-games. 

They would be nowhere without the novels, but their writing at times easily trumps what Sapkowskis has done. It's an awkward position to be in.

[Mr.House]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Really? Where do you feel the writing is better than in the novels?

Triss.

[slimgrin]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Really? Where do you feel the writing is better than in the novels?

The dialog, humor and on occasion the political intrigue. I'm judging from a mix of official and fan translations of the Polish original, so I may get crucified here. The official translations so far have been mediocre at best.

Modifié par slimgrin, 21 juillet 2013 - 03:19 .

[Beerfish]

Haven't played the witcher, might give it a go though I am leery of the awful combat that made my never get into the witcher 1 and being forced into playing a specific character.

[The Heretic of Time]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Haven't played the witcher, might give it a go though I am leery of the awful combat that made my never get into the witcher 1 and being forced into playing a specific character.

The combat is better in 2 but it's still completely twitch, and you still have to play a specific character.

I'd say it's worth playing, but don't go in with hype.

Not going in with hype is a sentiment that should be aplied universally to all video-games and series.

Hype is never good and can only lead to dissapointment.

You can still look forward to certain games or series though. I'm looking forward to see more from The Witcher 3 and I'm looking forward to play that game on my PC.

[Nole]

I bought The Witcher 1 and 2 during the Steam sale. I think I'm halfway through the first game, and I'm enjoying it a lot so far, and if everyone says that the second game is better...

[felipejiraya]

Can I like both or I have to choose?

[Gatt9]

Mass Effect:
The gameplay in ME1 is equally crap. The aiming and shooting mechanics are retarded, the cover-mechanics are pretty much non-existent and the classes are very imbalanced. Every class with immunity truly becomes immune to bullets on higher levels, even when you play on Insanity!
The gameplay in ME2 and ME3 is a lot better. ME2 implemented proper third-person shooter mechanics like Gears of War and ME3 introduced proper cover-mechanics and rolling-mechanics (also like Gears of War). It's good that BioWare took a good long look at Gears of War, the best third person shooter to date, it really improved the gamplay of Mass Effect!
Mass Effect 2 and 3 still suffer from bad game-mechanics though, such as the contrived Paragon/Renegade morality meter and cool-on-paper but terrible-in-practice dialogue wheel, but that is just minor stuff.
verdict: 8/10

winner: Mass Effect

Going to have to disagree strong with you here. The topic is RPG's. As you outline, with ME2 and ME3, Bioware implemented a Shooter instead.

Not only did they implement a shooter, they did so terrifyingly badly. The AI in ME2 is the worst I've seen since the 80's. Crouch behind a wall, and the AI will *never* try to kill you. It'll just keep shooting your box, for hours if you let it. It's obviously scripted, if you die and reload, everything happens the exact same way every time. In fact, it's even possible to get behind the AI and have it just keep walking forward and shooting without turning around.

ME3 is a little bit better, it does make an attempt to kill you, but it's still heavily scripted. It also suffers from "Look, we're Assassin's Creed too!", as at times the AI will run back and forth in front of you waiting for you to use your Assassin's Creed gauntlet on it.

At best I'd give it a 3/10. They removed all of the RPG elements in order to try and be Gears of War, and that was done very badly. It's terrible combat for an RPG, and it's inexcusable for a Shooter.

[NeonFlux117]

Well, Mass Effect 2 is better than both.

But I'd go with Witcher 3 in terms of everything RPG.

Now the gameplay, that's kinda a toss up I guess. I love shooters, so I really enjoy ME3 combat, but The Witcher 2 is one of the toughest and rewarding expierences I've played this gen. So, I don't know, probably ME3 for me. But Witcher 2 has fantastic gameplay.

But Witcher 2's narrative and writing are loads better. And it's a better and more complete RPG.

[Degs29]

leslie2233 wrote...
No Morality system

Not sure that's how I would put it.

More like the morality system isn't black and white like it is in Mass Effect.