100 réponses à ce sujet

[Jaulen]

Filament wrote...

And the whole host of different outcomes based on your choices for Isabela (qunari, Castillon), Aveline (back to Ferelden or not, guard captain or not), Bethany/Carver (warden/circle).

Yes DA2 companions are quite unreactive when you exclude, well, all of them.

i think the point may be unreactive in the sense that they might be standing right next to you, and you are in a convo with an NPC and do something/make a choice that is against that companion's beliefs and they do anothing about it. they stand there.

[Boycott Bioware]

Ever defile the Ashes?

I coukd never figure out why any Warden would do that, though.

There are reasons to do that. One of it is to destroy every trace of Andrasterian religion. If you are a Mage you could do that because that religion is **** and bring trouble to your life. Because of that religion you got separated from your family and living in a prison.

If you are an Elf, it have same reason too. The people of that religion who attack your people, enslave your people, making your people live wandering without a home, living in the jungle, living in Alieneage, raped, robbed ect ect ect

So, it is about revenge

Other reason is you really believe what Kolgrim say, Andraste is living as a dragon, and you want to become Andraste champion

Sadly the decision about the Urn is not properly addressed in DA2. It should be if the Temple restored Chantry religion become stronger, Templars are becoming fanatic ****, if the Urn destroyed Chantry religion become as it were and slowly diminished, many convert to other religion or become atheist.

Modifié par Qistina, 19 juillet 2013 - 09:56 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

filetemo wrote...

And yet,  that was five years ago. da2, me2 and me3 happened in between. DA:O reactivity is gone nowadays.

DAO was their last good game.  If they're not building from that, they're making a mistake.

[AlanC9]

Qistina wrote...

Sadly the decision about the Urn is not properly addressed in DA2. It should be if the Temple restored Chantry religion become stronger, Templars are becoming fanatic ****, if the Urn destroyed Chantry religion become as it were and slowly diminished, many convert to other religion or become atheist.

I don't see why destroying the Urn would put the Chantry into a decline. They were doing just fine without it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I would think that having some heretic desecrate their holiest relic would increase their zealotry, not diminish it.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Nobody knew about the Urn of Sacred Ashes before the Warden found it, it was just a legend. If the Warden destroys it, nobody in the outside would ever find out.

[Ziggeh]

filetemo wrote...

And yet,  that was five years ago. da2, me2 and me3 happened in between. DA:O reactivity is gone nowadays.

DA2 didn't really do "Bioware Decisions".

There are lots of minor ones concerning attitudes, but the only biggie is mage or templar, and that felt fairly railroaded

ME2 was more focused around the companions than the "main" plot, and there aren't really an decisions in that, but they certainly react to those made within the companion quests. Both in scene and in later dialogues.

As for ME3, there's literally a companion who can commit suicide as a reaction to a decision. So I'm not sure what sort of reactivity you mean.

[ladyiolanthe]

Plaintiff wrote...

Alistair isn't very religious at all. In fact, I can't recall a single nice thing he ever had to say about the Chantry. While tainting the ashes of Andraste might annoy him, I don't see him attacking you over it.

He certainly isn't! He's pretty clear about not feeling really comfortable in the Chantry life from the getgo in DA:O - like, as soon as he tells you he was training as a Templar before Duncan recruited him. He does use the Maker's name in vain, a lot, throughout the game. He is downright critical of the Chantry (well, Templars) if you do the King Alistair quest in DAII.

Modifié par ladyiolanthe, 19 juillet 2013 - 11:03 .

[Maria Caliban]

filetemo wrote...


And yet,  that was five years ago. da2, me2 and me3 happened in between. DA:O reactivity is gone nowadays.

In ME 2, you're going out of your way to recruit groups of people with grey or non-existant morality. The big exception to this is Samara and she when she joins, she makes an oath to serve you until you finish with the Collector Base.

In ME 3, the entire galaxy is on the brink of collapse.

As for DA 2, Isabela can leave you, Aveline will punch you in the face (and possibly turn against you), Fenris will leave you, Merrill can become furious with you (and turn against you), and your sibling can die in the Deep Roads -- all because of your choices.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 19 juillet 2013 - 11:07 .

[filetemo]

You all are focusing only on companion reactivity. There's world reactivity, NPC reactivity, content reactivity, gameplay reactivity, long and short term...

I concede maybe I'm focusing much in DA 2 lack of, but I think you're unconsciously narrowing the meaning of what I wanted to communicate

[Ziggeh]

filetemo wrote...

You all are focusing only on companion reactivity. There's world reactivity, NPC reactivity, content reactivity, gameplay reactivity, long and short term...

I concede maybe I'm focusing much in DA 2 lack of, but I think you're unconsciously narrowing the meaning of what I wanted to communicate

filetemo wrote...

it's dissapointing when you replay that both outcomes of a choice almost always end up with a "fine...whatever, let's move on" response from most companions and npcs.

It wasn't unconcious.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 19 juillet 2013 - 11:19 .

[filetemo]

Ziggeh wrote...

filetemo wrote...

it's dissapointing when you replay that both outcomes of a choice almost always end up with a "fine...whatever, let's move on" response from most companions and npcs.

It wasn't unconcious.

note I already specified npc reactivity aswell

[Maria Caliban]

filetemo wrote...

You all are focusing only on companion reactivity. There's world reactivity, NPC reactivity, content reactivity, gameplay reactivity, long and short term...

I concede maybe I'm focusing much in DA 2 lack of, but I think you're unconsciously narrowing the meaning of what I wanted to communicate

If everyone replying to a topic seems to misunderstand what you've said, maybe it's not their reading comprehension that's the problem.

[David7204]

That's a knife that cuts both ways. You should have the narrative 'telling' you which choices are good as well.

[Ziggeh]

filetemo wrote...

note I already specified npc reactivity aswell

What NPC reactivity would you say there is in DA:O that isn't true of say, Meredith or Orsino?

[filetemo]

I'd say having to fight Meredith and Orsino despite siding with them in the final battle is a sign of no reactivity.

Besides the path to that final confrontation is the culmination of a series of powerless decisions by the champion of kirkwall where is proven he's a mere spectator of the events that would have started with or without his input.

DA2 ending would have been nice if Anders let me actually participate in his plan.
Hawke participates = Crap hits the fan and mages vs templars happens. With all its consequences. Maybe Hawke even dies

Hawke does not participate in Anders plan = mages vs templars may or may not happen, depending on other choices.


Besides, there's the whole "He's your companion, Hawke, I'll let you handle his destiny"
That's how you react to the bombed chantry? Leaving it in my hands?

[Ziggeh]

Yeeeahh, not really what I asked?

I'm not questioning the shortage of meaningful, interesting decisions, I'm questioning your definition of "reactivity" as you appear to be applying it subjectively to support your assertion that DA:O did it "better".

Can you give us a specific example of how it was done better, that doesn't have a comparative example in the three games you mentioned?

[Boycott Bioware]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
Nobody knew about the Urn of Sacred Ashes before the Warden found it, it was just a legend. If the Warden destroys it, nobody in the outside would ever find out.

True, but defiling the ash making the Dragon Cult busy themselves with other things than messing with the Guardian. Maybe they start preaching outside Haven or wage war to the Chantry.

But as i mention, the decision regarding the urn don't addressed properly in DA2. It is because DA2 is totally a different game.

Logically, a religion that have no basis will die or not widespread. There are many heretical beliefs or new religion after Islam, they are either die with no followers or they just remain cults in their own area. They have no evidence to support their claim. Christians is the same too, there are many cults of Christians such as believing Jesus is a woman and such thing, but because of there is no evidence, it is not popular and die

Andraterian religion should die sooner or later if there is no evidence of Andraste existence, a myth.

Hindu believe in millions of gods and goddesses, sure i don't believe that, but Hindu is a popular religion because they have their evidence towards things in their religion, such as place believed to be Rama birth place, Khrishna city and so on. So people believe that based on the evidence they believe to be true

Christians have Holy Sepulture, Jerusalem, and evidences of Jesus existence as according to Christians. Muslims have Ka'abah, the prophet mosque and the prophet tomb, the companions tomb and many more. All these are evidence of the said person really existed, it's only the different interpretation of their teaching that make sects

But what evidence of Andraste existence?

Faith come from reason, not just blind belief.

[Inprea]

If you want things that felt wrong. Well for one thing not sacrificing the elfs to gain a permanent increase to health for my Warden was very hard for me. After all sure a few elfs die but how much good could be done with that additional power? In the end though I resolved that cold blooded murder is wrong even whenever it gains one great power. I also had issues resisting the urge to defile the ashes as once again I was being asked to pass up power.

Actually it seems DA:O had several times the Warden had to give up on some power. I'm just glad that the arcane warrior was obtained by being kind. I'd been a bit melancholy if I had to pass up on that power.

[filetemo]

Ziggeh wrote...

Yeeeahh, not really what I asked?

I'm not questioning the shortage of meaningful, interesting decisions, I'm questioning your definition of "reactivity" as you appear to be applying it subjectively to support your assertion that DA:O did it "better".

Can you give us a specific example of how it was done better, that doesn't have a comparative example in the three games you mentioned?

The whole landsmeet and subsequent dark ritual decision branches felt more reactive than any passage of DA2, ME2 and ME3. Except Rannoch, maybe.

Based on my choices in the Landsmeet and the Dark ritual I could:

Kill Loghain or join him, with Riordan's input and Alistair's protest  (NPC reactivity)
Kill, spare, imprison or exile my fellow Warden companion (Companion reactivity)
Determine the new king of a country or become myself one (world reactivity)
Do or do not the Dark Ritual, altering (or at least that's what it looked at the time) your own fate, the fate of your relationship with Morrigan, her role in the upcoming events, and the way to end the war, with sacrifice or not, also indirectly granting you the option to decide who dies killing the archdemon (that's plot, world, npc, and companion reactivity)

Nobody becomes a conformist with that series of decisions, worlds shape, plot changes, npcs react and companions live or die. 

You won't find Alistair saying "Fine I'll fight at Loghains side"
You won't find Morrigan saying "fine, don't take the ritual, you're right, it's for the best"
The old god baby is not born regardless of your choice
If you don't do the ritual, you stay dead.
And there's exclusive content with the branching path: Loghains company (although, I felt Loghains quickness to respect you a bit forced. That's why I was talking about writing bending to the player's will. That I saved Loghain doesn't mean I like him, or that he should like me.)

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Qistina wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
Nobody knew about the Urn of Sacred Ashes before the Warden found it, it was just a legend. If the Warden destroys it, nobody in the outside would ever find out.

True, but defiling the ash making the Dragon Cult busy themselves with other things than messing with the Guardian. Maybe they start preaching outside Haven or wage war to the Chantry.

But as i mention, the decision regarding the urn don't addressed properly in DA2. It is because DA2 is totally a different game.

Logically, a religion that have no basis will die or not widespread. There are many heretical beliefs or new religion after Islam, they are either die with no followers or they just remain cults in their own area. They have no evidence to support their claim. Christians is the same too, there are many cults of Christians such as believing Jesus is a woman and such thing, but because of there is no evidence, it is not popular and die

Andraterian religion should die sooner or later if there is no evidence of Andraste existence, a myth.

Hindu believe in millions of gods and goddesses, sure i don't believe that, but Hindu is a popular religion because they have their evidence towards things in their religion, such as place believed to be Rama birth place, Khrishna city and so on. So people believe that based on the evidence they believe to be true

Christians have Holy Sepulture, Jerusalem, and evidences of Jesus existence as according to Christians. Muslims have Ka'abah, the prophet mosque and the prophet tomb, the companions tomb and many more. All these are evidence of the said person really existed, it's only the different interpretation of their teaching that make sects

But what evidence of Andraste existence?

Faith come from reason, not just blind belief.

Alright, I'm not touching most of that can of worms because I still have a futile hope this won't spark an insane off topic discussion about real religions, except to say that the Chantry was still the dominant religon in Thedas for a thousand yearseven without having the location of the Urn of Sacred Ashes.

Also a tiny cult in a single isolated village going to war against the Chantry? I'm pretty sure that isn't happening. They always tried to minimize contact with the outside world because they knew that bringing unwanted attention could be disastrous for them.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 20 juillet 2013 - 12:33 .