107 réponses à ce sujet

[JoltDealer]

iakus wrote...
See, now this[/i] is a good opening to a debate.  Well, up until those last couple of sentences at least.

Now that I will honestly apologize for.  I didn't mean for that last part to come out so harsh or abrasive, but the Fireball Whiskey I was drinking was beginning to take effect towards the end there hahaha.  Nonetheless I stand by my words and I'll tell you why in a bit.  While I may not have intended to put things so bluntly, that is what I have noticed in my time here on these forums.

iakus wrote...
And here's my response:

While EC might have fixed the endings for you, they didn't help me, nor did they help a whole bunch of others.  To a lot of people, the endings are still horrific.  A railroaded mess who's idea of player agency was "choose the evil you're willing to permit, then burn for it"  Any sequel will only be a reminder of what ME3 stood for in the end:  darkness, misery, and colorful atrocities.  There's a reason[/i] why people wanted a new ending

Oh no, please don't misunderstand me.  I get it.  Once upon a time, I was there with you.  The original ending was so dark, bleak, and hopeless that I couldn't even see how a sequel could ever happen.  However, much of this was fixed for me when Bioware released the Extended Cut.  All that hopelessness?  Gone!  I mean it's still not a "happy ending," but it was a proper ending.  It brought a close to the story and gave a resolution to the war.  Better yet, it gave hope to the future of a galaxy without Shepard.

iakus wrote...
You say a reboot would undo these games?  how?  You still own the Mass Effect trilogy, and can play them any time you want.  All a reboot would do is close the circle, limiting the series to those three, and starting over with something new for subsequent games.  A series without any ties to Shepard or the rest of the cast or with their adventures and choices.

Yes, a reboot would undo these games, especially if done so soon.  Making this sort of demand is like going to the developers who made it and saying, "Hey!  The first three Mass Effect games were so bad that I refuse to move forward until you redo them and redo them right!"  Feel free to reword it however you wish, but it is rude no matter how you phrase it.  A reboot would not physically unmake these games, but it would make over a decade of work seem like it was for naught.  A reboot would effectively say that the new games are the ones that actually matter and the old ones never actually happened (in terms of the story).   

Now if I had to guess, the next Mass Effect game is going to be after a huge timeskip in order to get that whole, "It happened so long ago that no one really remembers what happened," element going.  Either way, it will involve a new story and new characters.  So I take it that your issue with them making a sequel is because you don't want to acknowledge that the ending(s) of Mass Effect 3 is canon?  

iakus wrote...
But if Mass Effect is a direct sequel, then it means that my[/i] Shepard, the one who's story the original trilogy was supposed to be about, was in fact forced to "pick a color"  and commit an atrocity on a galactic scale.  And that I will not do.  If a choice, any choice is canonized, even in a save import, it will taint the entire experience for me.  BEcause I will know how the galaxy got to that state, and I can't abide it.

That answers my previous question.  So again, it seems like the issue isn't with the series as a whole.  Your issue is with the ending of Mass Effect 3.  I don't think you actually want them to reboot the series, I think you'd be happy if Bioware just straight-up changed the ending.  However, Bioware has been rather adamant about their stance on that particular request.  They are not going to change a thing.  The Extended Cut was what they gave us and they did that for free, when they didn't have any legal obligation to do a thing.  I've pointed this out in several threads, but no matter what anyone says, they didn't have to do anything for us after the game was released.

So this goes back to what I said at the end of my previous post:  "It seems like it's less about the Mass Effect series and more about you not getting what you want."  Yes that's a harsh way to phrase it, but how else can you view these sorts of actions?  Forgive me, because I'm about to be blunt again purely for the fact of saving time.  You didn't like the ending for various reasons.  Bioware asked you why and you answered.  In response they altered the ending to address the concerns you had.  It added closure, it added hope, and it added coherence.  However, because they didn't give you the ending you desired you refuse to accept any future installments of the series.  Maybe it's a bit harsh, but I feel like that's an accurate recap of what has happened so far.

You seem like a smart guy from your posts.  You usually use good grammar and spelling, and you make legitimate points.  However, if you were to view these actions objectively, removing yourself, Bioware, and Mass Effect from the equation how would the above actions seem to you?  No offense meant to you, but it seems like pouting.  I mean what if the new game has the story headed in a legitimately good direction?  What if it manages to justify the ending of Mass Effect 3 in a way that Bioware was incapable of doing at the time due to various constraints such as time, resources, or budget?  There's no honest to god way to tell whether or not Mass Effect 4 will accomplish these things, but not abiding a sequel due to the fact that it canonizes an ending you didn't like seems a bit...I can't think of the word.  Hasty?

I understand your hesitation when it comes to a sequel.  It's a smart move.  You're waiting to see all the facts before deciding whether or not this game is for you, especially after Dragon Age II and Mass Effect 3.  However, it doesn't matter what facts come out if you've already decided that by it merely being a sequel to Mass Effect 3, it has already done something wrong in your book.  

If I've insulted you in any way shape or form, I apologize.  This was not my intent.  I've stated my view and opinion on the situation.  I've raised questions about yours.  I want to understand.  Personally, I think we should move on from ME3 regardless of how we feel and work together to make the next game better.

Modifié par Crimson Sound, 26 juillet 2013 - 04:03 .

[ElitePinecone]

I'd rather have something new.

New characters, new storyline, possibly a new time period.

Never mention the Reapers or the Leviathans again and I'll be a happy player.

Edit: that is to say, I don't like the idea of a reboot and I think it's actually kinda insulting to demand the developers spend years re-creating something just because you didn't like a tiny portion of it. I don't think a reboot would satisfy people, Bioware won't do it, and I'm a bit surprised that people keep asking for it.

Modifié par ElitePinecone, 26 juillet 2013 - 04:08 .

[ElitePinecone]

HiddenInWar wrote...

It would also be problematic to erase 10+ years worth of work on a canon trilogy just because a few people are still upset.

This is a *much* more eloquent way to say what I was trying to do above. 

[Phoenix_Also_Rises]

Crimson Sound wrote...

So this goes back to what I said at the end of my previous post:  "It seems like it's less about the Mass Effect series and more about you not getting what you want."  Yes that's a harsh way to phrase it, but how else can you view these sorts of actions?  Forgive me, because I'm about to be blunt again purely for the fact of saving time.  You didn't like the ending for various reasons.  Bioware asked you why and you answered.  In response they altered the ending to address the concerns you had.  It added closure, it added hope, and it added coherence.  However, because they didn't give you the ending you desired you refuse to accept any future installments of the series.  Maybe it's a bit harsh, but I feel like that's an accurate recap of what has happened so far.

(...)

Personally, I think we should move on from ME3 regardless of how we feel and work together to make the next game better.

I am right there with you and I cannot agree more. While I was, like many others, so crushed by the way things ended, I do think the time has come for us to move on and instead of debating the same points over and over again, we look to the future. In regards to which - all of this outcry, all of this discussion, arguing the same points ad nauseum, posting on message boards, demanding answers during Q-and-A sessions - I think it is safe to say they got they might have a slight inkling about the message we are trying to get across. We can let it rest. We can let it die. And we can, at long last, leave it resting in peace.

I, for one, am excited for the new game - I am eating all the news up like crazy, I follow every step of the development (that came off a lot more creepy than I initially intended), because I love this universe and I cannot wait to see what they come up with next. It will be all new - a new story on a new engine running on a new, exciting generation of platforms. BioWare showed they listened to and respected their fans by giving us the Extended Cut and "Citadel" when there was absolutely no obligation on their part to do any of these things. Maybe it is time for us to show them that when they make the intelligent, mature game we clamor for so much, it will actually be able to find an audience.

[Iakus]

Crimson Sound wrote...

Oh no, please don't misunderstand me.  I get it.  Once upon a time, I was there with you.  The original ending was so dark, bleak, and hopeless that I couldn't even see how a sequel could ever happen.  However, much of this was fixed for me when Bioware released the Extended Cut.  All that hopelessness?  Gone!  I mean it's still not a "happy ending," but it was a proper ending.  It brought a close to the story and gave a resolution to the war.  Better yet, it gave hope to the future of a galaxy without Shepard.

And I see EC as the exact same ending, with a little more detail.  The choices are the same, the context is the same, and the outcome is the same.  It's still bleak, still hopeless.  Still an atrocity.  THe only thing is confirms is that the galaxy diden't die.

Yay, I guess.

iakus wrote...
Yes, a reboot would undo these games, especially if done so soon.  Making this sort of demand is like going to the developers who made it and saying, "Hey!  The first three Mass Effect games were so bad that I refuse to move forward until you redo them and redo them right!"  Feel free to reword it however you wish, but it is rude no matter how you phrase it.  A reboot would not physically unmake these games, but it would make over a decade of work seem like it was for naught.  A reboot would effectively say that the new games are the ones that actually matter and the old ones never actually happened (in terms of the story).  

But I'm not asking for the original trilogy to be redone.  I just don't want a game that continues down these timelines.  I have zero interest in participating in a game in which any of the endings canonically took place.

Now if I had to guess, the next Mass Effect game is going to be after a huge timeskip in order to get that whole, "It happened so long ago that no one really remembers what happened," element going.  Either way, it will involve a new story and new characters.  So I take it that your issue with them making a sequel is because you don't want to acknowledge that the ending(s) of Mass Effect 3 is canon?  

A huge timeskip is essentially trying to have your cake and eat it too.  It doesn't remove the endings so much as it trivializes them.  (and arent' there enough complaints about "big choices" not amounting to anything?)  And will not be able to deal with the larger changes that the endings represent.  Can't go into detail since this is a non-spoiler forum, but given the destruction that can be wreaked not just in the endings but in some of the bigger decisions in ME3, it would seriously restrict the kind of characters that can appear in sequels.

iakus wrote...
That answers my previous question.  So again, it seems like the issue isn't with the series as a whole.  Your issue is with the ending of Mass Effect 3.  I don't think you actually want them to reboot the series, I think you'd be happy if Bioware just straight-up changed the ending.  However, Bioware has been rather adamant about their stance on that particular request.  They are not going to change a thing.  The Extended Cut was what they gave us and they did that for free, when they didn't have any legal obligation to do a thing.  I've pointed this out in several threads, but no matter what anyone says, they didn't have to do anything for us after the game was released.

The issue is that any future civilization in the Mass Effect universe will be built atop what I consider a horrific atrocity that my own character was forced to perpetrate.  I understand Bioware will not change that.  But at the same time I refuse to go forward with anything that further builds upon it.  Therefore, any game set in Mass Effect's present or future would have to be:

1) An alternate universe where the Reaper War never took place
2 ) A future that does not acknowledge how the Reapers were defeated, something that does not adhere to any of the choices.  One where a variety of headcanon's could fit just as well as the original RGB (such as MEHEM) 

So this goes back to what I said at the end of my previous post:  "It seems like it's less about the Mass Effect series and more about you not getting what you want."  Yes that's a harsh way to phrase it, but how else can you view these sorts of actions?  Forgive me, because I'm about to be blunt again purely for the fact of saving time.  You didn't like the ending for various reasons.  Bioware asked you why and you answered.  In response they altered the ending to address the concerns you had.  It added closure, it added hope, and it added coherence.  However, because they didn't give you the ending you desired you refuse to accept any future installments of the series.  Maybe it's a bit harsh, but I feel like that's an accurate recap of what has happened so far.

It did not add closure
It did not add hope
Coherence is debatable at best
But yes, I refuse to accept future installlments not because it wasn't the ending that I desired, but because the endings were worse than that.

DA2?  Didn't have an ending I desired.  It was weak, bizarre, and the ending chociesw were largely irrelevant.  But still it's a game I replay, because the ending wasn't a horrific atrocity.

ME3:  Horrific atrocity.  Not just unfun, but antifun, destroying the joy of the entire trilogy.  It ruins the journey because all you have to look forward to at the end in an 80MPH slam into a brick wall.

With a certain ending mod, the car can be steered away from that wall and continue.  But a sequel would mean that, yes that crash did happen.

You seem like a smart guy from your posts.  You usually use good grammar and spelling, and you make legitimate points.  However, if you were to view these actions objectively, removing yourself, Bioware, and Mass Effect from the equation how would the above actions seem to you?  No offense meant to you, but it seems like pouting.  I mean what if the new game has the story headed in a legitimately good direction?  What if it manages to justify the ending of Mass Effect 3 in a way that Bioware was incapable of doing at the time due to various constraints such as time, resources, or budget?  There's no honest to god way to tell whether or not Mass Effect 4 will accomplish these things, but not abiding a sequel due to the fact that it canonizes an ending you didn't like seems a bit...I can't think of the word.  Hasty?

I see no way Bioware could possibly justify these endings.  I mean, they already expended the resources for EC trying (and failing) to do so.  The logic is flawed and juvenile.  From a role-playing perspective it's the very definition of railroading by a Killer GM right down to the addition of a "Don't like my choices?  Frak You!  Rocks Fall, everyone dies!" 

What I see is a company normally resposnive to their fans starting to believe thier own press, that thier poop don't stink.  I see a sizable bloc of fans and former fans calling them on it.  THis is supposed to be a chcoie based narrative series, and frankly ME3 turned both chocie and story into a train wreck which I do not see as salvageable.

I understand your hesitation when it comes to a sequel.  It's a smart move.  You're waiting to see all the facts before deciding whether or not this game is for you, especially after Dragon Age II and Mass Effect 3.  However, it doesn't matter what facts come out if you've already decided that by it merely being a sequel to Mass Effect 3, it has already done something wrong in your book.  

To be honest, I'd probably oppose any sequel to Mass Effect.  At the point in the endings, there's simply too much divergence.  Even ME3 was buckling under the strain, and several major chocies were already trivialized.  However, the way ME3 ended has pout extra steel in my resolve.  I do not see how this galaxy is salvageable without simply wiping the slate clean and starting over.  a Crisis event, if you will.

If I've insulted you in any way shape or form, I apologize.  This was not my intent.  I've stated my view and opinion on the situation.  I've raised questions about yours.  I want to understand.  Personally, I think we should move on from ME3 regardless of how we feel and work together to make the next game better.

BElieve me, I've been trolled by worse people than you   

But please understand:   a choice based rpg with a strong narrative means players invest themselves, both in the character and in the world itself.   When the writers demand the player do something terrible to one, the other, or both for no rational reason, they're going to respond badly to it  Heck there are still Dragon Age players demanding further closure to their Warden and that character didn't end nearly as badly as Shepard's story, and with far more wiggle room to headcanon a happy ending.

Now with a new Mass Effect game in the works, I and others are forced to ask Biwoare "Why should we trust you again?  Why should we invest ourselves in a world and character when you think it's okay to say 'You exist because we allow it, and will end because we demand it'?"  

[ElitePinecone]

iakus wrote...
enormous snip

As I understand it, you don't want a sequel which assumes Shepard made an ending choice.

What about a prequel? Or something set between ME/ME2?

Because if (as it appears) nothing will satisfy you other than Bioware formally recanting ME3's storyline and inventing some other ending so you can adjust your headcanon, I'd expect you're going to be very disappointed - and it's probably better to disengage from the series at this point. No amount of fulminating is going to change the studio's mind if the game they're making isn't the one you want, which looks likely. You can deny them a sale, as is your perogative as a consumer.  

if the spectre (pun not intended) of the endings is going to loom so large over your whole outlook on any games set in this universe, then following news about the new game is only ever going to end in dissatisfaction for you. 

For better or worse (I think, worse) the endings as they are still stand. I still find them disjointed and very disappointing, but not to the point that they suck the enjoyment out of other parts of the series. I loved Citadel, I can easily see myself loving another game depending on the story, and I'm tentatively looking forward to finding out more about Montreal's Mass Effect. 

[MeredithvL]

No! I had so much precious time with my Shepard, I had so much fun. I love my (main) Shepard so much, and I played 90+ hours with her, plus 15 forgettable minutes at the end that I don't even acknowledge. A reboot would destroy all that.

[Iakus]

ElitePinecone wrote...

As I understand it, you don't want a sequel which assumes Shepard made an ending choice.

What about a prequel? Or something set between ME/ME2?

Because if (as it appears) nothing will satisfy you other than Bioware formally recanting ME3's storyline and inventing some other ending so you can adjust your headcanon, I'd expect you're going to be very disappointed - and it's probably better to disengage from the series at this point. No amount of fulminating is going to change the studio's mind if the game they're making isn't the one you want, which looks likely. You can deny them a sale, as is your perogative as a consumer.  

if the spectre (pun not intended) of the endings is going to loom so large over your whole outlook on any games set in this universe, then following news about the new game is only ever going to end in dissatisfaction for you. 

For better or worse (I think, worse) the endings as they are still stand. I still find them disjointed and very disappointing, but not to the point that they suck the enjoyment out of other parts of the series. I loved Citadel, I can easily see myself loving another game depending on the story, and I'm tentatively looking forward to finding out more about Montreal's Mass Effect. 

As you understand it, pretty much, yeah

"There was a war against the Reapers.  Commander Shepard saved us, now let's never speak of it again"

Problem with prequels and sidequels is that you already pretty much know how the story ends.  

Well, maybe not given how unapologeticly flexible they've been with their own lore.  It's entirely possible the FIrst Contact War could end up being a galaxy-wide war where entire planets where annihilated 

And "recant" is probably the wrong word.  "Disavow", maybe?  Buried and left forgotten?  

Dismiss that claim?  :innocent:

At any rate, when we get to the point where we learn what this next ME game is going to be about, I'll decide then whether to disengage or not.  Until then, I'm going to continue to provid "feedback".