242 réponses à ce sujet

[AutumnWitch]

Why Aveline Must Die…

(Before you read I am pretty darn sure I independently verified her death BUT I can’t say where/why less someone/some people get in trouble, and that is all I am going to say about it. But regardless the logic on their part is pretty much the same as what I have come up with below. Also, I kept this as short as possible but sorry if you find it too words or long.)

When looking at how the DA universe in constructed there are several symbolic anchors that define the nature of not only “what is” but “what should be”. It is these symbols that most life must cling to when the world starts to fall apart.

Above all in the DA universe  Aveline is symbolic for hope, honour and the “just matron”.  However, she also represents the “real” moral compass of Thedas. She represents “what ought to be” regardless of race, gender or religion. She is the pure notion of what is good relative to all of those who seek goodness. 

In our story The Templars and The Chantry, to some extent, are trying to super impose their symbolic moral code over the populations of Thedas. (As we all know so are other factions in the DA universe.) However, all of these influences are  bastardised and corrupted versions of the real “what ought to be”.

While Aveline lives, she is a beacon for those who become lost in the battle for good. Most people on their own will become prejudiced to “what ought to be”.  Aveline provides us a way back to that place that we REALLY need to be. So those forces who wish to impose their own versions of “what ought to be” view Aveline as their worst nightmare.

She is their worst nightmare because she is incorruptible and simultaneously the real beacon of good. So they can’t attack her on any moral issues. So, not only does she actually represent the correct version of “what ought to be” (to the misguided good) she also is a force that the truly evil must also over come as she is the real “light” that they are trying to extinguish. 

Aveline and those like her are hunted by both sides and neither side can win the war while she (and those like her) live. So therefore, she becomes the prime target by all sides vying for power. Only in her death can they move on to their ultimate goal, “the conquering of Thedas”. Because in her death the false prophets of “what ought to be” will use her death as a rallying call for war. (And sadly her death will come at the hands of these false prophets).

We know that in DAI the wars have begun in earnest and those wars could not have started until her (and those like her) death came to be. So the world must now look to a new force (our protagonist) to lead them back into the light. 

So therefore our protagonist (PC) has no importance until Aveline dies. This is clearly shown on Varric’s face. He has lost hope and must now find that new light (however tainted) to bring us all back.

It is important to understand that in this world of dark fantasy, our protagonist are not “what ought to be” but rather they are a tool that the powers that be need to use because the real beacons have been (or are being) hunted down by ALL sides of the conflict. What becomes paramount in these stories is that we must hope that the protagonist can overcome her/his own deficiencies long enough to fight back the forces of true evil and give time for the “new” real beacons of “what ought to be” time to develop and find their own way to take back what is needed.

Therefore the story shows us that in the end it is the “flawed hero” that makes the real difference in the world in its most dark time. And who do we see when we ALL look in to the mirror? The “flawed hero” of course. We are not perfect beacons of “what ought to be” but we sure as hell will fight to make sure those beacons can shine when needed.


(I know most of you will probably flame and hate this so I probably won’t reply to replies but I think if you really look at this you will see what I do.)

[TheBlackAdder13]

(Before you read I am pretty darn sure I independently verified her death BUT I can’t say where/why less someone/some people get in trouble, and that is all I am going to say about it. But regardless the logic on their part is pretty much the same as what I have come up with below. Also, I kept this as short as possible but sorry if you find it too words or long.)

Oh my, you have top secret knowledge and contacts with Bioware that you can't disclose , I totally believe you!

Incidentally, aren't you the same person who claimed that you heard a voice file (saying "don't ask me how, I can't tell you") of Varric saying something to a Hawke who didn't romance any characters? At which point, Mary Kirby shot you down saying that this was 100% impossible as no such line was ever actually recorded?

So therefore our protagonist (PC) has no importance until Aveline dies. This is clearly shown on Varric’s face. He has lost hope and must now find that new light (however tainted) to bring us all back.

This makes absolutely no sense. What makes you think our PC will be connected to Aveline, even if we buy your baseless, bizzarre theory that Aveline would overshadow our PC? Heck, Aveline is most likely in either the free marches or back in Fereldan where as our PC will likely be based in Orlais. Unless Aveline gets a cameo I doubt they'll ever meet.

(I know most of you will probably flame and hate this so I probably won’t reply to replies but I think if you really look at this you will see what I do.)

The only some reason why someone would "hate at this" OP is because of (the clearly made up) claim at the beginning of your post. You just don't want to respond to people calling you out on it. 

Modifié par TheBlackAdder13, 21 juillet 2013 - 11:49 .

[Renmiri1]

AutumnWitch wrote...

(I know most of you will probably flame and hate this so I probably won’t reply to replies but I think if you really look at this you will see what I do.)

By posting it here and saying "I'm leaving" and then saying we shoukld agree to your ideas you are being rude and intelectually dishonest. If your ideas - by your own assertion - don't stand up to criticism, then I have no interest in reading them.

If you are not interested in honest debate, why not try, tumblr, a blog or fan fiction ? There you can write your opinions and ignore criticism. Here people expect a dialog.

[KainD]

Nothing. Ought. to. be.

[Melca36]

Renmiri1 wrote...

AutumnWitch wrote...

(I know most of you will probably flame and hate this so I probably won’t reply to replies but I think if you really look at this you will see what I do.)

By posting it here and saying "I'm leaving" and then saying we shoukld agree to your ideas you are being rude and intelectually dishonest. If your ideas - by your own assertion - don't stand up to criticism, then I have no interest in reading them.

If you are not interested in honest debate, why not try, tumblr, a blog or fan fiction ? There you can write your opinions and ignore criticism. Here people expect a dialog.

:wizard:

[Melca36]

Guess you didnt read the Twitter thread. It was dead villagers that Varric he was reacting to and NOT anybody he knew.

[Weskerr]

This reads like pseudo-intellectual nonsense that a high school student would think up for his or her essay on a character from a novel the class read.

[Eternal Phoenix]

tl;dr

Just kill Aveline off. I couldn't care for the reason given. Maybe she stole some nugs from the dwarf merchant. Either way I wouldn't be complaining when the townsfolk make an example of her and hang her in the middle of the street as peasants pelt rocks at her.

[BlueMagitek]

Aveline did die, didn't you listen to Leliana back in DA:O at all?

She died but her valor won women the right to be Chevaliers.

[AutumnWitch]

Renmiri1 wrote...

AutumnWitch wrote...

(I know most of you will probably flame and hate this so I probably won’t reply to replies but I think if you really look at this you will see what I do.)

By posting it here and saying "I'm leaving" and then saying we shoukld agree to your ideas you are being rude and intelectually dishonest. If your ideas - by your own assertion - don't stand up to criticism, then I have no interest in reading them.

If you are not interested in honest debate, why not try, tumblr, a blog or fan fiction ? There you can write your opinions and ignore criticism. Here people expect a dialog.

I never said I was running away I just said I can't really debate this because for the most part its only my conjecture. Someone wanted to know why I thought she must die so I posted my opinion, Like every other post on here, its just an opinion.

[AutumnWitch]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Aveline did die, didn't you listen to Leliana back in DA:O at all?

She died but her valor won women the right to be Chevaliers.

Correct... it runs in her blood.

[AutumnWitch]

Melca36 wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

AutumnWitch wrote...

(I know most of you will probably flame and hate this so I probably won’t reply to replies but I think if you really look at this you will see what I do.)

By posting it here and saying "I'm leaving" and then saying we shoukld agree to your ideas you are being rude and intelectually dishonest. If your ideas - by your own assertion - don't stand up to criticism, then I have no interest in reading them.

If you are not interested in honest debate, why not try, tumblr, a blog or fan fiction ? There you can write your opinions and ignore criticism. Here people expect a dialog.

I am a published writer but my agent discourages me from writing fan fiction. I was so inspired by DAO I wrote a novel based on what happened to my Warden after DAO but as its not canon my agent didn't even try to submit it to Bioware/EA for consideration. I have shared it with many of my friends though. It’s a hoot. We are in the process of changing all the specific DAO references so it can be printed under my publisher’s label. Just last week we got the cover art finally sorted.

[Renmiri1]

Can't wait to read the "50 Shades of Aveline" when it gets published

[Maria Caliban]

I don't believe you have a secret source inside BioWare.

Even if I believed you, I don't think the symbolism within the games is well-developed or coherent enough for there to be system one could reliably draw meaning from on a larger scale.

Even if it were, your read on Aveline is one I disagree with.

Even if I agreed on your reading, my response would be that you've shown Aveline should most certainly not die.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 22 juillet 2013 - 12:53 .

[CaptainBlackGold]

AutumnWitch wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

AutumnWitch wrote...

SNIP

I am a published writer but my agent discourages me from writing fan fiction. I was so inspired by DAO I wrote a novel based on what happened to my Warden after DAO but as its not canon my agent didn't even try to submit it to Bioware/EA for consideration. I have shared it with many of my friends though. It’s a hoot. We are in the process of changing all the specific DAO references so it can be printed under my publisher’s label. Just last week we got the cover art finally sorted.

In the immortal words of Jimmy Stewart in "Harvey..."

"Well good for you!"

[AutumnWitch]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I don't believe you have a secret source inside BioWare.
I never said I did. You assume too much.

Even if I believed you, I don't think the symbolism within the games is well-developed or coherent enough for there to be system one could reliably draw meaning from on a larger scale.

Its not a conscious thing that people do when they write. Its part of Jungian psychology, it happens unintentionally.

Even if it were, your read on Aveline is one I disagree with.

Like I stated its just my conjecture.,..please post your own or refute mine if you like? It will be just as right as mine. Its all relative and perspective.

Even if I agreed on your reading, my response would be that you've shown Aveline should most certainly not die.
In 2014 if she is still alive you will sure have shown me...but she won't be.(dam you got me debating! Stop that!)

[AutumnWitch]

Filament wrote...

So you want Aveline to be Harvey Dent to the Inquisitor's Batman, I guess.

I don't think she's really significant enough on that scale and it would further annoyingly legitimize the narrative that every one of Hawke's companions is actually more important than Hawke.

i don't follow Batman so I have no idea what you mean here....I would dissagree only Aveline and maybe (BIG MAYBE) Anders are more important than Hawke symbolically. 

Hawke "can never be a dragon".  She is the flawed hero and as far as BioWarer has stated her story is over.

[ilikesocks]

Ugh. BLEEP DA2 Anders. Seriously, I've killed him a thousand times and wanna do another playthrough now just so I can kill him again. And people say Alistair was whiny. Ha. Anyway, sorry, vent over. Proceed.

[Lord Raijin]

/me clicks on the direct/aggressive opinion.

After everything my Hawke player did for this woman you would think she would be grateful for what he did to her. When he starts courting her she shrugs it off like if it was nothing. She failed to see my Hawkes feelings for her, and just when things can't get any worst.... She tried getting him to hook her up with one of the guardsmen. I don't think so!

So if Aveline does show up in DA: I and she dies It wouldn't bother me at all... after all she ****blocked my Hawke for as long as she did.

[AutumnWitch]

ilikesocks wrote...

Ugh. BLEEP DA2 Anders. Seriously, I've killed him a thousand times and wanna do another playthrough now just so I can kill him again. And people say Alistair was whiny. Ha. Anyway, sorry, vent over. Proceed.

I hate Anders so very very very much!!!!!!!!!!!  Between his paranoia and Sebastion's moaning and groaning....grrrrr!  Varric was the only REAL man of the companions lol.

[Lord Raijin]

Why are you guys talking about Anders when we should be talking about Aveline? Isn't their an Anders thread somewhere?

[AutumnWitch]

Lord Raijin wrote...

/me clicks on the direct/aggressive opinion.

After everything my Hawke player did for this woman you would think she would be grateful for what he did to her. When he starts courting her she shrugs it off like if it was nothing. She failed to see my Hawkes feelings for her, and just when things can't get any worst.... She tried getting him to hook her up with one of the guardsmen. I don't think so!

So if Aveline does show up in DA: I and she dies It wouldn't bother me at all... after all she ****blocked my Hawke for as long as she did.

please don't get me wrong I love Aveline to bits and hope she does live!! Really I do.... but I don't think she will.

[Am1vf]

Lord Raijin wrote...

/me clicks on the direct/aggressive opinion.

After everything my Hawke player did for this woman you would think she would be grateful for what he did to her. When he starts courting her she shrugs it off like if it was nothing. She failed to see my Hawkes feelings for her, and just when things can't get any worst.... She tried getting him to hook her up with one of the guardsmen. I don't think so!

So if Aveline does show up in DA: I and she dies It wouldn't bother me at all... after all she ****blocked my Hawke for as long as she did.

You  should have agreed, Aveline in (what she considers) a date is the most adorable thing ever . It hurts but she is worth the pain.

[Lord Raijin]

AutumnWitch wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

/me clicks on the direct/aggressive opinion.

After everything my Hawke player did for this woman you would think she would be grateful for what he did to her. When he starts courting her she shrugs it off like if it was nothing. She failed to see my Hawkes feelings for her, and just when things can't get any worst.... She tried getting him to hook her up with one of the guardsmen. I don't think so!

So if Aveline does show up in DA: I and she dies It wouldn't bother me at all... after all she ****blocked my Hawke for as long as she did.

please don't get me wrong I love Aveline to bits and hope she does live!! Really I do.... but I don't think she will.

I use to like this charecter until I finally realize what she truly is... a complusivie liar with an entitlement issues. "I deserve this" and "It is where I belong" she said that right after she became Captain of the guards.

This dialog between Carver/Aveline was what drove me to not like the charecter anymore.

Carver: Did you approve my application?
Aveline: I can't make you a guard, Carver.
Carver: We were both soldiers. Why won't they take me?
Aveline: I was an officer. And I follow orders.
Carver: (Laughs) No you don't.
Aveline: I also think of others before myself. You seem tired of that, and that's dangerous.
Carver: Just when it's not my choice. You told them not to take me, didn't you?
Aveline: Yes.

Later on he rose up in ranks of the Templars (If you leave him behind). It proved just how wrong this woman was, and how much of a **** she is for not helping Carver out at the time.