242 réponses à ce sujet

[Weskerr]

Marakov7 wrote...

I don't think Aveline was corrupt like the previous captain who willfully set up ambushes of his people as a way of earning a "little extra cash." However, I do think that she definitely suffered from a lack of intestinal fortitude and an inability to stand up for her supposed principles when it came to Hawke.

I think she should have been handled like Sebastian who absolutely refused to enter the Fade (greyed out at the character select screen), or like Isabela who bailed on the party whenever Hawke entered the Qunari compound. Whenever Hawke was going to go on a mission that was...questionable in her eyes, she should have refused. It only makes sense that she would have wanted to be briefed on what mission they were going on, if for no other reason than not wanting to sully her reputation as Captain of the Guard. It would get to the point where Hawke would know better (hopefully) than to even try to bring her along for those jobs.

As it was, she was a person who turned a blind eye to "shortcomings" of people she knew and pretended that their misdeeds never happened - I guess she figured that as long as the positives outweighed the negatives, it was all good. Not as bad as the previous captain, but definitely NOT a good captain in her own right.

Edit: One thing I forgot to mention, was there some really interesting thoughts provided earlier in the thread regarding Aveline that kind of spurred my thinking on the subject - hadn't really thought about it before.

Personally, Aveline's questionable professional integrity is justified by her deep loyalty to Hawk and his family. If it weren't for Hawk, she probably would not have made it out alive in Lothering. She also would not have been able to enter Kirkwall if it weren't for Hawk and his family.  I view her favoritism of Hawk's allies as Captain of the Guard as her rationalizing that any friend of Hawk's is a friend of hers.

Modifié par Weskerr, 22 juillet 2013 - 07:29 .

[Lord Raijin]

Marakov7 wrote...

I don't think Aveline was corrupt like the previous captain who willfully set up ambushes of his people as a way of earning a "little extra cash." However, I do think that she definitely suffered from a lack of intestinal fortitude and an inability to stand up for her supposed principles when it came to Hawke.

So let me get this straight. Jeven willfully setup ambushes against his his employees to make a “little extra cash” yet Aveline... the new Guard captain refuses to turn Anders in to the Templars right after she discovers Anders dirty little secret on ACT 2:

Aveline: So you're two people, Anders and... Justice?
Anders: That's not strictly accurate.
Aveline: But you are of two minds.
Anders: Many people are.
Aveline: Now you're the one not being accurate.
Anders: I thought those were the rules of this game.
Aveline: I never know who I'm talking to with you.
Anders: Then it's fortunate it doesn't occur often.

Another banter

Aveline: You're glaring, Anders. Is there a reason, or is it one of your moods?
Anders: Your term as captain hasn't been particularly "mage friendly."
Aveline: I've only turned a handful over to the templars.
Anders: Every despot starts somewhere.
Aveline: And yet I allow an abomination to whine at me! Credit where it's due.

On the final scene on ACT 3 Anders (Who should've been in the circle, or executed by the Templars) decided to blow up the Chantry thus starting the great war against the Templars and the mages. He killed a lot of innocent people, which included children, babies and now the incoming death of innocent mages in the circle. Aveline is largly responsible for this catastrophic occurance because she did not do her job right. She was obligated to arrest and handle Anders over to the Templars.

So after reading this do you still think shes not as currupted as the previous captain of the guards?

[MisanthropePrime]

One thing to remember is that, while Anders is running from the Wardens there's nothing to suggest he's not, legally, a Warden. His apostasy is therefore at best entirely legal and at worst in a gray area.

[Marakov7]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Marakov7 wrote...

I don't think Aveline was corrupt like the previous captain who willfully set up ambushes of his people as a way of earning a "little extra cash." However, I do think that she definitely suffered from a lack of intestinal fortitude and an inability to stand up for her supposed principles when it came to Hawke.

So let me get this straight. Jeven willfully setup ambushes against his his employees to make a “little extra cash” yet Aveline... the new Guard captain refuses to turn Anders in to the Templars right after she discovers Anders dirty little secret on ACT 2:

Aveline: So you're two people, Anders and... Justice?
Anders: That's not strictly accurate.
Aveline: But you are of two minds.
Anders: Many people are.
Aveline: Now you're the one not being accurate.
Anders: I thought those were the rules of this game.
Aveline: I never know who I'm talking to with you.
Anders: Then it's fortunate it doesn't occur often.

Another banter

Aveline: You're glaring, Anders. Is there a reason, or is it one of your moods?
Anders: Your term as captain hasn't been particularly "mage friendly."
Aveline: I've only turned a handful over to the templars.
Anders: Every despot starts somewhere.
Aveline: And yet I allow an abomination to whine at me! Credit where it's due.

On the final scene on ACT 3 Anders (Who should've been in the circle, or executed by the Templars) decided to blow up the Chantry thus starting the great war against the Templars and the mages. He killed a lot of innocent people, which included children, babies and now the incoming death of innocent mages in the circle. Aveline is largly responsible for this catastrophic occurance because she did not do her job right. She was obligated to arrest and handle Anders over to the Templars.

So after reading this do you still think shes not as currupted as the previous captain of the guards?

Corrupt? No.

Derelict in performance of her duties because of her unwillingness to not show favoritism to associates of Hawke? Yes.

A poor excuse of a Guard Captain whose failure to do her job contributed greatly to the blowup at the end of Act 3? Absolutely, without a doubt.

Modifié par Marakov7, 22 juillet 2013 - 07:57 .

[Catroi]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

/me clicks on the direct/aggressive opinion.

After everything my Hawke player did for this woman you would think she would be grateful for what he did to her. When he starts courting her she shrugs it off like if it was nothing. She failed to see my Hawkes feelings for her, and just when things can't get any worst.... She tried getting him to hook her up with one of the guardsmen. I don't think so!

So if Aveline does show up in DA: I and she dies It wouldn't bother me at all... after all she ****blocked my Hawke for as long as she did.

You  should have agreed, Aveline in (what she considers) a date is the most adorable thing ever . It hurts but she is worth the pain.

I didn't think it was adorable. It was obnoxious. Aveline was married once. She acts like if she never dated before.

You must have a quite academic knowledge of medieval europe if you think that maried people knew how to date back then...

[Cheylus]

Is there any romance in Dragon Age that feels like courtesy literature?

[LolaLei]

Lol, what a load of bollocks.

[Itsahammer]

"Why Aveline must die"


She's a ginge.

[fchopin]

Have a glass of wine op and relax.

Modifié par fchopin, 22 juillet 2013 - 09:31 .

[iOnlySignIn]

Interesting theory. And I can see OP is actually a big fan of Aveline and put a lot of thoughts into this.

However, I think you can rest assured that even if it does happen, Aveline will go out in spectacular fashion like Mordin does in ME3. They won't create such a memorable major character just to let her get killed off like some random nameless NPC bystander.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 22 juillet 2013 - 10:17 .

[TobiTobsen]

Dead or not, I still want to know why she was allowed to join the guard while my Hawke was paying of her "get into the city"-debt with mercenary thugs or a thieving ring.

[phunx]

Lord Raijin wrote...

/me clicks on the direct/aggressive opinion.

After everything my Hawke player did for this woman you would think she would be grateful for what he did to her. When he starts courting her she shrugs it off like if it was nothing. She failed to see my Hawkes feelings for her, and just when things can't get any worst.... She tried getting him to hook her up with one of the guardsmen. I don't think so!

So if Aveline does show up in DA: I and she dies It wouldn't bother me at all... after all she ****blocked my Hawke for as long as she did.

Omg DAE hate the friendzone? My Hawke was such a NiceGuy™ and did so many things for her, even watched her kill her husband, then she friendzoned him like females tend to do. I mean being nice to females = sex right?
No other relationship is possible between a man a female than a sexual one and if you're nice and they don't repay with sex they're horrible and should die!!! Who cares about the mages freedom, friendzone should be illegal!

[Am1vf]

phunx wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

/me clicks on the direct/aggressive opinion.

After everything my Hawke player did for this woman you would think she would be grateful for what he did to her. When he starts courting her she shrugs it off like if it was nothing. She failed to see my Hawkes feelings for her, and just when things can't get any worst.... She tried getting him to hook her up with one of the guardsmen. I don't think so!

So if Aveline does show up in DA: I and she dies It wouldn't bother me at all... after all she ****blocked my Hawke for as long as she did.

Omg DAE hate the friendzone? My Hawke was such a NiceGuy™ and did so many things for her, even watched her kill her husband, then she friendzoned him like females tend to do. I mean being nice to females = sex right?
No other relationship is possible between a man a female than a sexual one and if you're nice and they don't repay with sex they're horrible and should die!!! Who cares about the mages freedom, friendzone should be illegal!

I like your post .


They should have put it in the trailers, or at least those dev-diaries: "With DA][ we brought romances to unprecedented levels of realism, your character gets friendzoned by the hottest character in the game".
edit: whether you like males or females, now that I think of it.

Modifié par Am1_vf, 22 juillet 2013 - 01:14 .

[Amberion]

If Aveline attempted to stop Hawke every time Hawke tried to loot chests that weren't 'fair game' people would learn pretty quickly not to take Aveline anywhere. In this case, a character's preferences take a back seat to game concerns.

Modifié par Amberion, 22 juillet 2013 - 01:14 .

[Am1vf]

Amberion wrote...

If Aveline attempted to stop Hawke every time Hawke tried to loot chests that weren't 'fair game' people would learn pretty quickly not to take Aveline anywhere. In this case, a character's character tendencies take a back seat to game concerns.

I would like something like that, I hate how in RPGs you can rob people in their own house like you are looting some abandoned ruins.

[Amberion]

Yeah but then one of two things would happen, either people would feel compelled to swap her in and out as needed to be sure of looting every chest possible, or just never take her along, ever. Since she's a pretty good tank, not having her along can be annoying.

[Ziggeh]

AutumnWitch wrote...

She is their worst nightmare because she is incorruptible and simultaneously the real beacon of good. So they can’t attack her on any moral issues. So, not only does she actually represent the correct version of “what ought to be” (to the misguided good) she also is a force that the truly evil must also over come as she is the real “light” that they are trying to extinguish.  

Aveline and those like her are hunted by both sides and neither side can win the war while she (and those like her) live. So therefore, she becomes the prime target by all sides vying for power. Only in her death can they move on to their ultimate goal, “the conquering of Thedas”. Because in her death the false prophets of “what ought to be” will use her death as a rallying call for war. (And sadly her death will come at the hands of these false prophets).

While I definitely agree she's the stories moral center, I don't believe she's the "hero Gotham needs". 

She's not a beacon because her capacity is limited. Despite her impact on the city through the gaurd, the major events of her time - including two wars breaking out on her watch - require the agency of Hawke, without whom she would have been left railing against the corruption, or more likely dead.

She's a voice in the head of agency - a moral one no doubt, but her will is (in story terms) is only expressed at the behest of the hero.

[syllogi]

Honestly, OP, I think your conclusions would be better as fanfic than as a part of DA:I, because you are giving more importance to Aveline than the actual story of DA2 did, and I really, really doubt she'll be more than a cameo, if even that, in DA:I.

Personally, I think Aveline would make a good candidate for Viscount of Kirkwall after Hawke disappears (or if Hawke sides with mages and doesn't become Viscount). She would probably be appalled by the suggestion, and not want to do it, but that's part of the reason why she'd be the right person for the job. Whatever happens to her in the next game, I hope she ends up relatively happy and healthy. She's good people.

[Am1vf]

Amberion wrote...

Yeah but then one of two things would happen, either people would feel compelled to swap her in and out as needed to be sure of looting every chest possible, or just never take her along, ever. Since she's a pretty good tank, not having her along can be annoying.

Choice and consequence integrated via gameplay mechanics. I'm in favor of annoying the players when there is a good resason for it. I would prevent from swapping characters within such areas and let the players decide if they prefer the "tank"  or the loot. It might help see the companions as characters instead of weapons (would be less objectifying?).

edit: @syllogi
The same reason this could never happen is what makes her not be a good choice for vicount: politics. There are surely other candidates with more connections and I doubt she would be eqipped to deal with politics.

The only way I could see this working is as a temporary leader (despot) put in a position of power by the people of Kirkwall (they seem to like her well enough) during times of war. But not as a permanent position.

edit: okay, now I want that to happen. Aveline Vallen, appointed military leader of Kirkwall forcefully unifies the Free Marches to form a front against... I dunno, the Qunary, Antiva, The Chantry, the Mages, all of them?

Modifié par Am1_vf, 22 juillet 2013 - 02:27 .

[Wolf]

This entire topic is garbage.

[Ziggeh]

Gaiden96 wrote...

This entire topic is garbage.

Discussing story elements from a literary perspective? It's an outrage! We should go back to fawning over romance subplots and casual bigotry!

[Amberion]

Am1_vf wrote...
edit: okay, now I want that to happen. Aveline Vallen, appointed military leader of Kirkwall forcefully unifies the Free Marches to form a front against... I dunno, the Qunary, Antiva, The Chantry, the Mages, all of them?

I think if she were to take the office of Viscount(not that I think this is likely, the nobles wouldn't accept her), she would be far more likely to work with the more modest goals of ensuring the safety of the populace and the security of the city.
 
She would probably want to eject the Templars and the Circle from the city, with the justification that the balance of power meant for an unstable and insecure political structure within the city, to the detriment of the common man. As to whether she is willing to defy the Chantry is another story.

Her friend/rivalry responses seem to indicate that she is somewhat central to the debate but leaning slightly toward the Templars, in the interest of public peace. She could have a concern that, without Templars in the city, underground mages might have a field day, with the guard unable to do anything about them.

In the end, she would have to make some hard decisions. I don't know if she would be able to make them.

[Iakus]

Aveline was my favorite companion of DA2. If sheis forced to die just to prove a point, I'll be mad.

[Am1vf]

Iakus, do you like Game of Thrones?

Amberion wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...
edit: okay, now I want that to happen. Aveline Vallen, appointed military leader of Kirkwall forcefully unifies the Free Marches to form a front against... I dunno, the Qunary, Antiva, The Chantry, the Mages, all of them?

I think if she were to take the office of Viscount(not that I think this is likely, the nobles wouldn't accept her), she would be far more likely to work with the more modest goals of ensuring the safety of the populace and the security of the city.

She would certainly prefer that, but against too big an army the City States would have to work together and she is no diplomat, she would try to unite the armies of the free marches the only other way she knows, conquest. This is just my idea of her, I like it because she would hate every second of it but feel compelled to do the "lesser evil" to protect the populace.

After saving the Free Marches she would have to deal with the remorse until she is assasinated by the nobles she saved who want power over the free marches. That is an end worthy of Aveline IMHO.

 

She would probably want to eject the Templars and the Circle from the city, with the justification that the balance of power meant for an unstable and insecure political structure within the city, to the detriment of the common man. As to whether she is willing to defy the Chantry is another story.

Her friend/rivalry responses seem to indicate that she is somewhat central to the debate but leaning slightly toward the Templars, in the interest of public peace. She could have a concern that, without Templars in the city, underground mages might have a field day, with the guard unable to do anything about them.

In the end, she would have to make some hard decisions. I don't know if she would be able to make them.

I think she is in the side of order, and the templars were order in Kirkwall. I agree that she would want to eject the templars (not the chantry though, that would be too much of a blasphemy and add the whole of the Andratian nations to their anemies) but she would need them in the army. Another tough choice indeed, maybe something the Inquisitor can advise about?

Modifié par Am1_vf, 22 juillet 2013 - 03:39 .