242 réponses à ce sujet

[Ziggeh]

iakus wrote...

Aveline was my favorite companion of DA2. If sheis forced to die just to prove a point, I'll be mad.

It's not really a point. She's saying that in poetic terms, Aveline represents hope, and that to portray a sense of hoplessness they need to remove it's symbol.

[Iakus]

Am1_vf wrote...

Iakus, do you like Game of Thrones?

I used to.  But I outgrew my dark&gritty phase.

[Iakus]

Ziggeh wrote...
It's not really a point. She's saying that in poetic terms, Aveline represents hope, and that to portray a sense of hoplessness they need to remove it's symbol.

Pretty sure dragon attacks, civil war, mages and templars slaughtering each other, and a ginormous tear in the Veil will do just fine in portraying a sense of hopelessness without curb-stomping a returning character.

Just saying

[Magdalena11]

I actually almost never bring Aveline along except on her personal quests. I certainly don't want to see her return in DA:I. She can go on being guard captain in Kirkwall and I hope it works out well for her.

[Ziggeh]

iakus wrote...

Pretty sure dragon attacks, civil war, mages and templars slaughtering each other, and a ginormous tear in the Veil will do just fine in portraying a sense of hopelessness without curb-stomping a returning character.

Just saying

Well maybe, but that's not really counter to her point, because those are explicit and she's talking symbolism.

[Melca36]

LolaLei wrote...

Lol, what a load of bollocks.

It most definitely is and this post has given her haters a chance to bash her.

[Lord Raijin]

Marakov7 wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Marakov7 wrote...

I don't think Aveline was corrupt like the previous captain who willfully set up ambushes of his people as a way of earning a "little extra cash." However, I do think that she definitely suffered from a lack of intestinal fortitude and an inability to stand up for her supposed principles when it came to Hawke.

So let me get this straight. Jeven willfully setup ambushes against his his employees to make a “little extra cash” yet Aveline... the new Guard captain refuses to turn Anders in to the Templars right after she discovers Anders dirty little secret on ACT 2:

Aveline: So you're two people, Anders and... Justice?
Anders: That's not strictly accurate.
Aveline: But you are of two minds.
Anders: Many people are.
Aveline: Now you're the one not being accurate.
Anders: I thought those were the rules of this game.
Aveline: I never know who I'm talking to with you.
Anders: Then it's fortunate it doesn't occur often.

Another banter

Aveline: You're glaring, Anders. Is there a reason, or is it one of your moods?
Anders: Your term as captain hasn't been particularly "mage friendly."
Aveline: I've only turned a handful over to the templars.
Anders: Every despot starts somewhere.
Aveline: And yet I allow an abomination to whine at me! Credit where it's due.

On the final scene on ACT 3 Anders (Who should've been in the circle, or executed by the Templars) decided to blow up the Chantry thus starting the great war against the Templars and the mages. He killed a lot of innocent people, which included children, babies and now the incoming death of innocent mages in the circle. Aveline is largly responsible for this catastrophic occurance because she did not do her job right. She was obligated to arrest and handle Anders over to the Templars.

So after reading this do you still think shes not as currupted as the previous captain of the guards?

Corrupt? No.

Derelict in performance of her duties because of her unwillingness to not show favoritism to associates of Hawke? Yes.

A poor excuse of a Guard Captain whose failure to do her job contributed greatly to the blowup at the end of Act 3? Absolutely, without a doubt.

That's pure curruption right there.
Jeven sold out his fellow guardmens for money and Aveline sold out her entire city just to keep one insane rogue mage free from the Templars... in spite of what he truly is, an Abomination. If that's still not curruption then I don't know what is.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 22 juillet 2013 - 06:35 .

[Iakus]

Ziggeh wrote...

iakus wrote...

Pretty sure dragon attacks, civil war, mages and templars slaughtering each other, and a ginormous tear in the Veil will do just fine in portraying a sense of hopelessness without curb-stomping a returning character.

Just saying

Well maybe, but that's not really counter to her point, because those are explicit and she's talking symbolism.

What I have to say about symbolism, especially heavy-handed symbolism, should not be stated in polite company

[Angrywolves]

I liked Avaline.
We should have been able to romance her in DA2..
Yes an Avaline fan did a mod with her making out with hawke.
cute.
And yes some players are bashing her.
Rather sad.

[Am1vf]

@Lord Raijin She sidn't intentionally sacrifice the city. Call her stupid if you want but that is not being corrupt.

Modifié par Am1_vf, 22 juillet 2013 - 06:40 .

[Ziggeh]

iakus wrote...
What I have to say about symbolism, especially heavy-handed symbolism, should not be stated in polite company

Well heavy handed, obviously is not great, but I'm not sure you can make the argument that perhaps the defining feature of storytelling and art is something they shouldn't be bothering with. That's like saying you're not keen on words. They should avoid those.

[Lord Raijin]

Am1_vf wrote...

@Lord Raijin She sidn't intentionally sacrifice the city. Call her stupid if you want but that is not being corrupt.

Yes she did. It was her job to capture dangerous mages and take them to the gallows. Didn't you read her dialog that I submitted? She admits that she turned a handful of mages over to the templars, but not right after Anders told her "Your term as captain hasn't been particularly "mage friendly."

[Amberion]

Actually, it's not her job to do anything specific with mages. It's her job to keep the peace. It's the Templar's Jobs to hunt down mages; should she be doing their job for them? The fact that she's turned some mages over to the Templars simply means she caught them breaking the law, they were mages, she wanted to get rid of them and the Templars were handy. Fact is, Anders hadn't broken any city laws(that I am aware of) and was doing good work for the people of Darktown. Also Hawke & Co. promised the shopkeeper who pointed the way to Anders that they wouldn't turn him in.

[Am1vf]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...

@Lord Raijin She sidn't intentionally sacrifice the city. Call her stupid if you want but that is not being corrupt.

Yes she did. It was her job to capture dangerous mages and take them to the gallows. Didn't you read her dialog that I submitted? She admits that she turned a handful of mages over to the templars, but not right after Anders told her "Your term as captain hasn't been particularly "mage friendly."

They also state that the Guards don't answer to the templars, and she is very interested in keeping it that way.

Although her husband was a templar she is not a religious person, that means she will act according to what se sees rather than what the Chantry says. She is also a Fereldan. Is she supposed to capture a fereldan grey warden who heals the poor fereldan inmigrants for free just because the templars (who have no authority over her) say so?

You could say she has conflicting loyalties between the city of Kirkwall or her fereldan roots. But still she has brought mages to the templars when she considered they were a threat, have you considered that maybe she doesn't think of anders as a threat?

Modifié par Am1_vf, 22 juillet 2013 - 07:12 .

[Tootles FTW]

How does a Captain of the Guard in one specific city in the whole of Thedas become a beacon to anyone? Even if she worked alongside The Champion - at the end of the day it's The Champion everyone is talking about, not Aveline.  I like Aveline, but the focus was never on her rising to any position of significance to affect the thoughts & opinions of the masses.  She was a guard, and a damn good one, but...that's about it?  No reason to over-bloat her impact.

Andraste must "die" if we're talking about the deconstruction of a widespread ideologues representing a "just matron", I mean seriously.

Modifié par Tootles FTW, 22 juillet 2013 - 07:13 .

[The Elder King]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...

@Lord Raijin She sidn't intentionally sacrifice the city. Call her stupid if you want but that is not being corrupt.

Yes she did. It was her job to capture dangerous mages and take them to the gallows. Didn't you read her dialog that I submitted? She admits that she turned a handful of mages over to the templars, but not right after Anders told her "Your term as captain hasn't been particularly "mage friendly."

It wasn' exactly her job. The job of catching mages is of the templars. Aveline helped the templars when the mages she found were dangerous, because they threatened the city's security, but it's not her duty to hunt and catch mages. And it's not her fault that the templars weren't capable of finding Anders, or that Varric and Hawke protected him.
She has responsibility to what happened in Act 3, but it wasn't because she was corrupted, because it wasn't her job to find mages (or even tell templars about them), and she wasn't bribed.

[Lord Raijin]

Amberion wrote...

Actually, it's not her job to do anything specific with mages. It's her job to keep the peace. It's the Templar's Jobs to hunt down mages; should she be doing their job for them? The fact that she's turned some mages over to the Templars simply means she caught them breaking the law, they were mages, she wanted to get rid of them and the Templars were handy. Fact is, Anders hadn't broken any city laws(that I am aware of) and was doing good work for the people of Darktown. Also Hawke & Co. promised the shopkeeper who pointed the way to Anders that they wouldn't turn him in.

What about this situation? What if Anders killed the young mage that he was trying to protect and save from being made tranquil by Ser Otto Alrik?

Let's checkout the dialog.

Anders: Can I ask you something, Aveline?
Aveline: I cannot look the other way when mages break the law-- (The complusive lying erupts)
Anders: That's not what I was going to ask.
Anders: There's a girl. A mage apprentice. She...was murdered in the Gallows recently. Have you heard anything of it?
Aveline: You mean the girl you killed.(Isn't that against the LAW AVELINE?!?!? Captain of the guards!??!?!)
Anders: Yes. I'd like to... attend the funeral. Do something.
Aveline: The official templar report says she was killed by a demon of unknown origin. (Refuses to tell the Templars the truth, and therefour putting the entire city at risk just to aid one rogue unstable mage)
Aveline: Let her family mourn in peace.

She turns her back away from this gruesome crime. Instead of arresting Anders for the murder of Ella, she just flat out ignores it like if it never exists. I guess she doesn't want to be bothererd with more paper work. Too much work... A typical lazy cop.

Anders is unpredictiable and I can't believe for a moment that Aveline couldn't see this. You would think being married to a Templar would give her some knowledge on how to spot unstable mages. I guess not.

[Marakov7]

Negligence and cronyism are not the same as corruption. Not necessarily all that much better, but (as far as I could see) her actions were not done for her own financial gain. A case could be made, weak though it may be, that she looked the other way because Hawke because he/she did more good than bad - think she actually made a comment along those lines in the game. I guess you could say that she did do what she did for personal/professional gain - still not corruption in my eyes since it was for the "good" of Kirkwall too - although it didn't work out that way in the end.

I will say that I never had Anders in my party except during his personal quests so none of the dialogue you mention occurred in my playthroughs. So, in my universe, it didn't happen. I thought right from the beginning that Anders was too freaky-deaky for my tastes so I didn't interact with him all that much. But I do remember one discussion with him about halfway through the game where he was talking about revolution (along with the time he tried to kill the runaway mage) that made me want to gut him right then and there, but wasn't given the option. I got to kill the politician's son that preyed on young female elves, but not this psychotic-possessed freak of nature. Oh, well, killing him too soon wouldn't have been too good for the overall plot I guess...

[iOnlySignIn]

Lord Raijin wrote...

What about this situation? What if Anders killed the young mage that he was trying to protect and save from being made tranquil by Ser Otto Alrik?

Let's checkout the dialog.

Anders: Can I ask you something, Aveline?
Aveline: I cannot look the other way when mages break the law-- (The complusive lying erupts)
Anders: That's not what I was going to ask.
Anders: There's a girl. A mage apprentice. She...was murdered in the Gallows recently. Have you heard anything of it?
Aveline: You mean the girl you killed.(Isn't that against the LAW AVELINE?!?!? Captain of the guards!??!?!)
Anders: Yes. I'd like to... attend the funeral. Do something.
Aveline: The official templar report says she was killed by a demon of unknown origin. (Refuses to tell the Templars the truth, and therefour putting the entire city at risk just to aid one rogue unstable mage)
Aveline: Let her family mourn in peace.

She turns her back away from this gruesome crime. Instead of arresting Anders for the murder of Ella, she just flat out ignores it like if it never exists. I guess she doesn't want to be bothererd with more paper work. Too much work... A typical lazy cop.

Anders is unpredictiable and I can't believe for a moment that Aveline couldn't see this. You would think being married to a Templar would give her some knowledge on how to spot unstable mages. I guess not.

Anders is a charming fellow. And a doctor/revolutionary who saves innocent people's (Mages and non-Mages alike) lives.

Anyone with a sense of justice or a sense of humor (Aveline obviously has both) would not arrest Anders.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 22 juillet 2013 - 08:07 .

[DatOneFanboy]

aveline must die cuz she doesnt have bouncing ****** like bella

[Ziggeh]

Tootles FTW wrote...

How does a Captain of the Guard in one specific city in the whole of Thedas become a beacon to anyone?

She's suggesting she's the beacon of hope in the story, not in the setting.

[Lord Raijin]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

What about this situation? What if Anders killed the young mage that he was trying to protect and save from being made tranquil by Ser Otto Alrik?

Let's checkout the dialog.

Anders: Can I ask you something, Aveline?
Aveline: I cannot look the other way when mages break the law-- (The complusive lying erupts)
Anders: That's not what I was going to ask.
Anders: There's a girl. A mage apprentice. She...was murdered in the Gallows recently. Have you heard anything of it?
Aveline: You mean the girl you killed.(Isn't that against the LAW AVELINE?!?!? Captain of the guards!??!?!)
Anders: Yes. I'd like to... attend the funeral. Do something.
Aveline: The official templar report says she was killed by a demon of unknown origin. (Refuses to tell the Templars the truth, and therefour putting the entire city at risk just to aid one rogue unstable mage)
Aveline: Let her family mourn in peace.

She turns her back away from this gruesome crime. Instead of arresting Anders for the murder of Ella, she just flat out ignores it like if it never exists. I guess she doesn't want to be bothererd with more paper work. Too much work... A typical lazy cop.

Anders is unpredictiable and I can't believe for a moment that Aveline couldn't see this. You would think being married to a Templar would give her some knowledge on how to spot unstable mages. I guess not.

Anders is a charming fellow. And a doctor/revolutionary who saves innocent people's (Mages and non-Mages alike) lives.

Anyone with a sense of justice or a sense of humor (Aveline obviously has both) would not arrest Anders.

I don't know if you're being serious or you're clearly joking with me.

What part of Anders being an Abomination don't you get? I don't care if he was a fricken viscount... Any mage who allows themselves to be posessed by either a demon or a spirit is now considered a high risk against the people of the city.

Justice no longer existence. Justice use to be a spirit now a demon... Vengeance.

If anyone with half a brain would realize that Anders poses a high risk, and it proved at the end of ACT 3. You can thank Aveline for not arresting him earlier on. Had he been executed, or contained by the Templars  the Chantry wouldn't had exploded, and the war against the templars and the mages wouldn't had even started up.... unless if Meredith and Orsino finally lashed out at each other.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 23 juillet 2013 - 01:50 .

[AutumnWitch]

Bionuts wrote...

Isn't Aveline the most corrupt guard .. in like EVER?!

She covers up for a criminal (Varric), a mass murderer (Hawke), an abomination (Anders)...

yes she does BUT she honestly thinks the ends justify the means...she would never do something if she really didn't want to. She fears no one and she is no one's pawn. She even stood up to Wesley the person she loved more than anyone in the world. She is incapable of doing the wrong things. On purpose anyway.  (In my DA2 universe)

[AutumnWitch]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Interesting theory. And I can see OP is actually a big fan of Aveline and put a lot of thoughts into this.

However, I think you can rest assured that even if it does happen, Aveline will go out in spectacular fashion like Mordin does in ME3. They won't create such a memorable major character just to let her get killed off like some random nameless NPC bystander.

She will die protecting those who can't protect themselves or sacrificing herself for the better good.  And it will be a tear jerker for sure.

[Zeldrik1389]

I guess I just blame the awful writing of DA 2 again lol But seriously, a lot of characters' actions in DA 2 didn't even make sense, or very one dimensional.

For instance, If Carver alive and join the Templar, why the heck didn't he report Anders? He said flat out he hates the guy, and he knew Anders' an abomination (I assume the whole group knows). As a freakin templar, his job is to catch mages ffs, yet he allowed a dangerous one running freely around for 5, 6 years. (=.=!) Mage Hawke didn't even bother to at least TRY to hide the fact that they are mage (running around with staff and robes, blowing thugs up left and right etc..) so it's not that turning Anders in will reveal Hawke's identity anyway.

Or in one of the banters between Anders and Aveline, he accuse her for telling on him because couple of templars were looking around darktown for him. Seriously? She was hiding his ass for years, and now suddenly she goes and reports him? Oh yeah, btw, she's a damn GUARD CAPTAIN. She can arrest him and turn him to the templar instead, what's the point of telling on him?? Why do you blame others while you yourself don't even know something as simple as "laying low"?? The stupidity of DA2 characters are just off the damn chart.

Anyway, on topic, I think Aveline will live, and maybe she will be a part of the Inquisition. She's quite idealistic, and keeping people safe seems to be her only priority so I think she will want to stop this war. We will see.

Modifié par Zeldrik1389, 23 juillet 2013 - 02:44 .