40 réponses à ce sujet

[lessthanjake9]

WillieStyle wrote...

lessthanjake9 wrote...
Lastly, stamina regen isnt a total fix. You want to be able to burst out with a ton of activated abilities at the beginning of a battle. If you focus ONLY on stamina regen, your stamina pool itself won't be large enough to use a ton of activated abilities right away before there has been time for much regen.

Critical Strike: 41 Stamina
Mighty Blow: 41 Stamina
Sunder Arms: 26 Stamina
Sunder Armor: 41 Stamina
Two Handed Sweep: 41 Stamina
Total: 190 Stamina.

You don't need to put  a single point into willpower to get that much stamina by mid game.
Hell Chasin Greatmaul (which you can get as soon as you complete 2 treaties quests) give 75 stamina all by itself.

Willpower sucks.  Do not stack it.

Come on, that was a silly post.

First off, you arent accounting for fatigue with that 190 number. Secondly, I have made it quite clear that one use of each ability is not what I am looking for. I want to be able to cycle through them a few times.  You CANT do that with no points in willpower until reasonably late in the game.

[Timortis]

lessthanjake9 wrote...

Well, I dont know. In that picture you put up, your sustainables clearly take up roughly half of your stamina. The outline of where the top of the bar is after sustainables was half way up the full stamina bar. This is clear from eyeballing it, and also because the top of the outline is not at an angle, which would indicate it is at the middle. Your sustainables take up 210 stamina. If you only had 355 total stamina, the outline of that bar would leave you with only 40%, which IMO would clearly look like less than what is shown in that picture. I might be wrong, but that was what I was saying.

Yeah, you're wrong. Equip a stamina increasing item, then activate a sustain, then take a look at your stamina and tell me what you find.

[Jack-Nader]

Here is another way you can look at the argument.



For the sake of simplicity we will be:-

A) Excluding fatigue

Assuming that all critical damage hits do double damage

C) Excluding weapon speed

D) Assuming that the player is using a great maul with 1.25 damage multiplier

E) Every point to strength adds 1 base damage.

F) Excluding random damage generation.

G) Two handed sweep strikes only connects to 1 target.

H) The player has 190 stamina and no regen capacity



Now we have 5 damaging talents and as previously stated the talent cost totals 190 stamina. I am going to assume this to be correct as I have not checked this for myself.



we can expect that for every strength point allocated :-

Critical strike:= adds 1 ( Strength damage) * 1.25 (Weapon attribute damage * 2 ( critical damage multiplier) = 2.5 damage

Mighty Blow := adds 1 * 1.25 * 2 = 2.5 damage

Sunder Arms = 2 * 1.25 = 2.5 damage

Sunder Armor = 2 * 1.25 = 2.5 damage

Two handed sweep = 1 * 1.25 = 1.25 damage



Thus every point in strength will yield an additional theoretical 11.25 damage per full talent tree cycle.

The maximum talent cost is 41 stamina. This is the equivalent of 9 willpower points. Allocating these points into strength would amount to 101.2 extra damage.



Without factoring in all the other variables it is impossible to know whether adding willpower instead of strength is worth it. One of the more obvious fruits of adding an extra talent cycle, at the expense of damage, is that the battle is prolonged and thus increases the chance of injury. Is adding willpower worth it? My intuition is telling me no but that is a question that each player will have to answer for themselves.

[lessthanjake9]

Timortis wrote...

lessthanjake9 wrote...

Well, I dont know. In that picture you put up, your sustainables clearly take up roughly half of your stamina. The outline of where the top of the bar is after sustainables was half way up the full stamina bar. This is clear from eyeballing it, and also because the top of the outline is not at an angle, which would indicate it is at the middle. Your sustainables take up 210 stamina. If you only had 355 total stamina, the outline of that bar would leave you with only 40%, which IMO would clearly look like less than what is shown in that picture. I might be wrong, but that was what I was saying.

Yeah, you're wrong. Equip a stamina increasing item, then activate a sustain, then take a look at your stamina and tell me what you find.

What do you mean? I dont have a savegame that I can immediately test that out on, and I am not immediatley aware of what youre talking about.

Its really all a moot point though. 355 stamina or not, im sure you kept up full ability usage due to large stamina regen items, many of which are very hard to afford until very far into the game.

[beancounter501]

It is simple math here. Trading 25 points of strength for 25 points of willpower to run sustains is a losing proposition.



25 Points of Strength: + 12.5 To hit, +20 Dmg (25 *.67 Avg Ability Modifier * 1.25 Maul Str Bonus)

25 Points of Will: 125 Stamina



Running Rally, Mighty Blows & Precise Striking will give you + 15 To Hit, +5 Dmg, + 5 Def, + 10% Crit Chance and it costs 120 points of stamina. That is a horrible trade off.



Lets demonstrate why fatigue is king. In a hypothetical battle that lasts 50 seconds we want to use the following abilities:



Sunder Arms X5

Sunder Armor X 3

Mighty Blow X 3

Critical Strike X 1

Two hand Sweep X 3

Perfect Striking X 2



That is a ton of abilities. And you may not be able to pull them all of. But it is fun and insanely powerful. But it costs a fortune - around 664 stamina points!



Look what fatigue does:



Wades Superior Dragonskin Armor + Indomitable: Fatigue -17%, Total Cost: 551

Wades Superior Dragonscale Armor + Indomitable: Fatigue 0%, Total Cost: 664

Wades Superior Dragonbone Armor + Indomitable: Fatigue 20%, Total Cost: 796



Dragonbone + Indomitable + Rally + Precise Striking + mighty blows: Fatigue 35%, Total Cost: 896



If you don't want to use Wade's but use something like the Templar Commander Armor(for the spell resists) your total fatigue would go up to 45% and the total cost would be 962.



Going from medium/heavy armor with only 1 sustain to massive with 4 sustains costs you anywhere from 200 to 300 points of stamina! And running those three extra sustains reduces your max stamina by 120 points. So in reality they are costing you between 300 and 400 pts of stamina. There is simply no way you can put enough points into willpower to offset that.



Lesson of the day: limit fatigue as much as possible. Sustains suck for a two hand warrior. The extra 125 stamina points from 25 points of willpower will NOT let you wear massive armor and run four sustains and use abilities non-stop.



In case you are wondering a level 21 warrior with good gear should have a stamina pool of 350 stamina. With top shelf stamina regeneration gear you should be able to regenerate about 150 stamina over 50 seconds. That brings your total stamina pool to 500. With final blow or a mage casting rejuvenate you could probably add in extra 100 points of stamina. This allows a warrior in Medium/Heavy armor to use abilities non-stop, but only if sustains are limited.

[Jack-Nader]

^Agreed



This mirrors my experience with the two handed class.

[tetracycloide]

lessthanjake9 wrote...
What do you mean? I dont have a savegame that I can immediately test that out on, and I am not immediatley aware of what youre talking about.

Items that add stamina actually add 'reserved stamina' not real stamina.  The effect of this is that, with no sustains on, a +75 stamina item will show a full bar of stamin with a total value of 75 higher than base and a reserved stamina of 75.  If a 60 stamina sustain is then activated reserved stamina will then read 15 stamina, the total stamina available will be 15 higher than base, and the stamina bar will still show as 100% full.  White space is only added to the stamina bar if 'reserved stamina' is negative on net i.e. more stamina is being subtracted by sustains than is being added by items.

So assuming he only had one stamina increasing item, the CGM, and it increases stamina by 75 that means there is 75 stamina worth of sustains not represented visually in the UI.  Thus if the sustainables cost 210 stamina but 75 stamina goes unrepresented in the UI half the stamina bar would be ~135 so the total stamina bar would be 270 which is pretty close to the actual 280 considering this is all done by eyeballing.

[Ingahootz]

If you can't get item's like Andruil's Blessing really early in the game (to suit your stamina needs) you need to do some serious thinking about how you're not generating enough gold. I think I got my last Andruil's at level 8 with no potion selling? Something around there. If buy the 2 bags at the start of Ostagar (57 silver a pop) and pick every lock, fill up your inventory and don't throw anything away, you'll break 100 sovereigns in no time.



Also, don't horde needless gear, sell everything that your character's done have equipped. The worth while gear doesn't come until later anyways.



With that said... 4.5 stamina regen far out weighs putting any points into will power. You can pump every stat into either dex or str (depending on whether you DW or 2H) with no damage penalty and have enough stamina to cycle through all of your abilities.



Besides there's plenty of +stamina gear out there that will do the same thing you're doing pumping points into will power.



In all honesty though, if you want to build the highest damaging character possible... boosting your white damage is the way to go. White damage will always be your highest damage source by a large margin, regardless of whether or not you can cycle through all of your abilities.

[WillieStyle]

lessthanjake9 wrote...

WillieStyle wrote...

lessthanjake9 wrote...
Lastly, stamina regen isnt a total fix. You want to be able to burst out with a ton of activated abilities at the beginning of a battle. If you focus ONLY on stamina regen, your stamina pool itself won't be large enough to use a ton of activated abilities right away before there has been time for much regen.

Critical Strike: 41 Stamina
Mighty Blow: 41 Stamina
Sunder Arms: 26 Stamina
Sunder Armor: 41 Stamina
Two Handed Sweep: 41 Stamina
Total: 190 Stamina.

You don't need to put  a single point into willpower to get that much stamina by mid game.
Hell Chasin Greatmaul (which you can get as soon as you complete 2 treaties quests) give 75 stamina all by itself.

Willpower sucks.  Do not stack it.

Come on, that was a silly post.

First off, you arent accounting for fatigue with that 190 number. Secondly, I have made it quite clear that one use of each ability is not what I am looking for. I want to be able to cycle through them a few times.  You CANT do that with no points in willpower until reasonably late in the game.

Oh for crying out loud!
I was specifically responding to the part of your post where you claim:
"Lastly, stamina regen isnt a total fix. You want to be able to burst
out with a ton of activated abilities at the beginning of a battle. If
you focus ONLY on stamina regen, your stamina pool itself won't be
large enough to use a ton of activated abilities right away before
there has been time for much regen."
The above shows that one can easily get enough stamina to use burst out a bunch of damage without spending any points in willpower.

And if you're going for burst, you use up the stamina for those abilities and then you activate your sustains.

[WillieStyle]

First off, you arent accounting for fatigue with that 190 number. Secondly, I have made it quite clear that one use of each ability is not what I am looking for. I want to be able to cycle through them a few times. You CANT do that with no points in willpower until reasonably late in the game.

For the umpteenth time, this is false.

You can get:

Wade's Superior Dragon Skin

Chasind Great Maul

after doing on just Redcliffe and Urn of Sacred Ashes. That's less then half way through the game.

[lessthanjake9]

WillieStyle wrote...

First off, you arent accounting for fatigue with that 190 number. Secondly, I have made it quite clear that one use of each ability is not what I am looking for. I want to be able to cycle through them a few times. You CANT do that with no points in willpower until reasonably late in the game.

For the umpteenth time, this is false.
You can get:
Wade's Superior Dragon Skin
Chasind Great Maul
after doing on just Redcliffe and Urn of Sacred Ashes. That's less then half way through the game.

My recollection may be wrong, but I am pretty sure you need two treaties done to get the Chasind Great Maul. That means that you can get Wade's Superior Dragonskin and Chasind Great Maul only after doing Redcliffe, the Urn, and The Circle/Orzammar/Brecilian. Thats more than halfway through the game. It is true, though, I suppose, that if you really gear your entire game towards it, you can get lots of stamina regen early. It would take really spending your sovereigns on it and nothing more for a long time, though. That's all well and good, but in a party-based game, many peple would rather not spend so much of their money on a couple items for one party member. And this is not even mentioning the fact that the vast majority of dragon age players wont know when exactly is the earliest they can get those items, and thus won't get them nearly as early as they could, if at all.

[WillieStyle]

The Urn counts as a treaty.

And again, this whole "gearing for stam/regen" and nothing else is a pretty lame argument.

Chasind Great Maul would be the best 2H weapon even if it didn't have 75 stam on it.
Warden Commanders Armor / Wades Superior DragonSkin or Dragon Bone armor are the best dps armor sets in the game for warriors.
There is no oppurtunity cost for gearing for stam regen.

Modifié par WillieStyle, 19 janvier 2010 - 11:00 .

[lessthanjake9]

WillieStyle wrote...

The Urn counts as a treaty.

And again, this whole "gearing for stam/regen" and nothing else is a pretty lame argument.

Chasind Great Maul would be the best 2H weapon even if it didn't have 75 stam on it.
Warden Commanders Armor / Wades Superior DragonSkin or Dragon Bone armor are the best dps armor sets in the game for warriors.
There is no oppurtunity cost for gearing for stam regen.

Hmm I didnt know the Urn counted as a treaty for item appearance. Interesting.

And I agree with the Great Maul being the best weapon even without the stamina. In taht case there is no opportunity cost. But there IS an opportunity cost when you start talking about Wade's armor. A different build would really have a tough time with the fatigue of Dragonbone armor (when combined with fatigue from sustainables). Theyd have to go with Dragonskin most likely as one of the posters earlier in this thread did with his strength based character. This sacrifices 8 armor. When we are talking about builds that have low defense, no extra constitution points, and abilities that increase aggro, extra armor is very very important.

[beancounter501]

Sorry Willie, but in this you are wrong. You have to do the Urn and one other treaty. I had already done the Mage Circle and the Chasind Maul was not available until I completed the whole Urn quest line. Doing Redcliff village/castle was not enough. I know because I was trying to outfit my party after just doing Redcliff Village/Castle. Still, it is available fairly early on. I was level 12 after completing them both. You could get Wades Superior armor with just the Urn line, but that means killing the high dragon around level 10. Which may be tough.



But the extra regen gear is not THAT important. Just manage your fatigue.

[tetracycloide]

Warrior have disengage and deal single target damage. A decent tank with taunt is going to obviate the need for armor. The best DPS glove/boot/body for a two-hand warrior is honestly the lowest tier of warden commander armor you can get. Armor is only a good stat when it comes at a 0% increase in fatigue penalty.

Modifié par tetracycloide, 20 janvier 2010 - 12:15 .

[beancounter501]

tetracycloide wrote...

Warrior have disengage and deal single target damage. A decent tank with taunt is going to obviate the need for armor. The best DPS glove/boot/body for a two-hand warrior is honestly the lowest tier of warden commander armor you can get. Armor is only a good stat when it comes at a 0% increase in fatigue penalty.

Fully agree.  If my mage can sit in the middle of battle and not be targeted a 2 hand warrior should have no problem.