Well, that depends on what kind of type and degree of dysfunction we're talking about. I know many dysfunctional people (in some aspects I could be considered one), and yet they are very capable of achieving things and being valued members of society. We already have dysfunctional characters in both DA:O and DA:2 - for example, Alistair who has issues with his own worth, capability for leadership, issues that stem from his childhood and the fact that he was an orphan with predetermined fate... and depending on our character's acts, he can be betrayed and executed or finish as notorious drunk or he can finally put his ghosts to rest and become a great man. Or, look at Carver, the relationship with Hawke is filled with dysfunction and it can lead to severe outcomes (Carver can decide to become a mage hunter just in spite). Same goes for many characters, even our own.
What type and severity of dysfunction do you seek?
Do You Want Any *Real* Dysfunction?
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#102
Posté 23 juillet 2013 - 09:48
Adela
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Nimrodell wrote...
Well, that depends on what kind of type and degree of dysfunction we're talking about. I know many dysfunctional people (in some aspects I could be considered one), and yet they are very capable of achieving things and being valued members of society. We already have dysfunctional characters in both DA:O and DA:2 - for example, Alistair who has issues with his own worth, capability for leadership, issues that stem from his childhood and the fact that he was an orphan with predetermined fate... and depending on our character's acts, he can be betrayed and executed or finish as notorious drunk or he can finally put his ghosts to rest and become a great man. Or, look at Carver, the relationship with Hawke is filled with dysfunction and it can lead to severe outcomes (Carver can decide to become a mage hunter just in spite). Same goes for many characters, even our own.
What type and severity of dysfunction do you seek?
the kind that the companion/LI wants to beat the hell out of the PC apperantly....<_<
#103
Posté 23 juillet 2013 - 09:51
Firky
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Yes. But not without the possibility for redemption.
(PS. But I'm a bit over the idea that the protag should be able to fix everyone. One of the best things about Merrill, IMO, was that you couldn't. I'd hope redemption came from within the companion themselves.)
(PS. But I'm a bit over the idea that the protag should be able to fix everyone. One of the best things about Merrill, IMO, was that you couldn't. I'd hope redemption came from within the companion themselves.)
Modifié par Firky, 23 juillet 2013 - 09:53 .
#104
Posté 23 juillet 2013 - 11:16
Ieldra
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While I'm at it: I also object to the idea that every character trait that adversely affects a romance is a "dysfunction". I would call neither Morrigan nor Merrill nor Isabela "dysfunctional". Having priorities other than romance is NOT a flaw, as inconceivable as that may be to some!
Modifié par Ieldra2, 23 juillet 2013 - 11:18 .
#105
Posté 23 juillet 2013 - 11:31
Magdalena11
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As far as the nitty-gritty of dysfunctionality goes, Varric's mom was an alcoholic and it was his job to look after her. It's a codex entry and plays no part in the story whatsoever. I think the pre-existing flaws like possession (Wynne and Anders), blood magic (Merrill and for me, Morrigan), drunkenness (Oghren), whining (Alistair, Fenris), hypersexuality (Zevran and Isabela), occasional homicidal mania (Sten) and being just plain nuts (Leliana) cover all the dysfunctionality bases fairly completely. How wacko do people have to be before the protag doesn't want to hang out with them anymore?
#106
Posté 23 juillet 2013 - 11:51
MisanthropePrime
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I'd actually LOVE to have the option of a well-balanced team (healer, tank, 1 DPSer) without significant issues. I recall the conversation Shepard has with EDI in ME3 about how she has no daddy issues or long standing regrets, or how Aveline is actually able to get over Wesley's death and doesn't dwell on her past without Hawke's help. Well adjusted, confident adults who would make sense as being part of an organization that's saving the world rather than emotionally stunted nutcases who seem more volatile than useful.
#107
Posté 23 juillet 2013 - 12:12
Ieldra
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Pfft. As an ironic comment on my previous post: more than half of these are not flaws, and some are very subjective judgments AND not flaws.Magdalena11 wrote...
As far as the nitty-gritty of dysfunctionality goes, Varric's mom was an alcoholic and it was his job to look after her. It's a codex entry and plays no part in the story whatsoever. I think the pre-existing flaws like possession (Wynne and Anders), blood magic (Merrill and for me, Morrigan), drunkenness (Oghren), whining (Alistair, Fenris), hypersexuality (Zevran and Isabela), occasional homicidal mania (Sten) and being just plain nuts (Leliana) cover all the dysfunctionality bases fairly completely. How wacko do people have to be before the protag doesn't want to hang out with them anymore?
#108
Posté 23 juillet 2013 - 12:15
Firky
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Ieldra2 wrote...
While I'm at it: I also object to the idea that every character trait that adversely affects a romance is a "dysfunction". I would call neither Morrigan nor Merrill nor Isabela "dysfunctional". Having priorities other than romance is NOT a flaw, as inconceivable as that may be to some!
I don't think any of these characters were dysfunctional either.
I've known some extremely disfunctional relationships, though, and I wonder if a distinction needs to be made between dysfunctional person and disfunctional relationship. Two totally typical, healthy people can easily butt heads horribly, after all. Or, one person can be, at heart, good, but screw things up horribly for various motivations.
#109
Posté 23 juillet 2013 - 12:17
Nerys
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ilikesocks wrote...
I think Anders was dysfunctional. But what you are talking about is on a whole new level... Why on earth would anyone want to be abused by someone with a heavy drug/alcohol problem? I wouldn't want that in real life, why would I want to play a game about it? Maybe I'm boring, but, that all just sounds unnecessary.
I agree. dysfunctional (and even addictive) behavior is one thing, but to make our inquisitor the willing victim of abuse is a whole other ballgame. I think it would break immersion for many roleplayers, myself included.
#110
Posté 23 juillet 2013 - 12:58
Ryzaki
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As long as I can tell them to GTFO from the party sure.
I do not want to be forced to drag them around.
I do not want to be forced to drag them around.
#111
Posté 23 juillet 2013 - 01:03
TK514
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Zero interest in this. Sounds roughly as entertaining as reading the newspaper, only I don't pay $60+ for the newspaper. I guess this might be a good direction if you wanted the game to continue BioWare's recent spiral of failure, but I'd rather see them make something enjoyable and worth my gaming dollars.
#112
Posté 23 juillet 2013 - 02:24
Airdeen
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I like the level they had in DA2. They can go further than that too, but only if they manage to pull it off well, so that would be a challenge for the writing team and animators.
#113
Posté 23 juillet 2013 - 03:25
mopotter
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Zev was an interesting character who sometimes betrayed me and sometimes was a love interest or friend. He also occasionally died the first time he attacked me. And if I didn't kill him, I enjoyed his character.
I can't imagine a character who is abusive to be someone I would enjoy knowing. If they include anyone who wants to be abusive or sadistic, I want the option to kill them or at the very least not invite them to join my group.
DA2 did seem to have quite a few characters with problems, and DA:O had their share also. Character quirks are interesting. I'm hoping for interesting characters and good dialogue. Not looking for a group of sadistic jerks but one or two that I can ignore or kill wouldn't bother me that much as long as there were also some "good" characters to balance it out. And maybe a couple who can go either way.
I can't imagine a character who is abusive to be someone I would enjoy knowing. If they include anyone who wants to be abusive or sadistic, I want the option to kill them or at the very least not invite them to join my group.
DA2 did seem to have quite a few characters with problems, and DA:O had their share also. Character quirks are interesting. I'm hoping for interesting characters and good dialogue. Not looking for a group of sadistic jerks but one or two that I can ignore or kill wouldn't bother me that much as long as there were also some "good" characters to balance it out. And maybe a couple who can go either way.
#114
Guest_Trista Hawke_*
Posté 23 juillet 2013 - 04:33
Guest_Trista Hawke_*
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I guess you guys would have to consider this more in depth.
What type of hero do you want to play? A hero who is peaceful, neutral, or aggressive? This might affect how your hero interacts with a companion who is aggressive toward him or her. If your hero chooses mostly aggro dialogue, then a bully-companion would have a harder time pushing you around. But if you choose to be more peaceful throughout gameplay, perhaps you would become a victim of this type of companion. And beyond that - where would the situation go? You could break it off with said companion, or play into your hero's "learned helplessness", realizing that your hero is still, after all, just human. He/She has flaws and issues too - despite being capable of saving the world.
This avenue of having a dysfunctional companion not only brings a 3 dimensional quality to said companion, but will shape your hero in a more 3 dimensional way as well.
Edit: Also no one is considering your hero's other companions watching the dysfunction happening. Should the correct interaction choices be made with surrounding companions, perhaps one of them can step up and defend your hero against a bullying companion, ergo saving your hero from him/herself and a volatile situation.
What type of hero do you want to play? A hero who is peaceful, neutral, or aggressive? This might affect how your hero interacts with a companion who is aggressive toward him or her. If your hero chooses mostly aggro dialogue, then a bully-companion would have a harder time pushing you around. But if you choose to be more peaceful throughout gameplay, perhaps you would become a victim of this type of companion. And beyond that - where would the situation go? You could break it off with said companion, or play into your hero's "learned helplessness", realizing that your hero is still, after all, just human. He/She has flaws and issues too - despite being capable of saving the world.
This avenue of having a dysfunctional companion not only brings a 3 dimensional quality to said companion, but will shape your hero in a more 3 dimensional way as well.
Edit: Also no one is considering your hero's other companions watching the dysfunction happening. Should the correct interaction choices be made with surrounding companions, perhaps one of them can step up and defend your hero against a bullying companion, ergo saving your hero from him/herself and a volatile situation.
Modifié par Trista Hawke, 23 juillet 2013 - 04:36 .
#115
Guest_Trista Hawke_*
Posté 23 juillet 2013 - 04:40
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Edit: Also no one is considering your hero's other companions watching the dysfunction happening. Should the correct interaction choices be made with surrounding companions, perhaps one of them can step up and defend your hero against a bullying companion, ergo saving your hero from him/herself and a volatile situation.
Examples:
1. abusive LI is put in her/his place by another companion who is in love with your protag
2. abusive LI is put in her/his place by another companion who considers you to be their best friend
3. abusive friend companion is put in his/her place by your LI
4. abusive family member companion is put in his/her place by either your best friend or LI, or a group intervention by all of your companions you have gained friendship with
3. abusive friend or LI companion is put in his/her place by a family member companion
4. no one puts anyone in his/her place and your hero resolves him/herself to a volatile situation (coupled with some kind of incentive that positively impacts the rest of your gameplay. Like... you put up with abuse and you gain so much in experience, or a special item, or something. You're bought off, basically.)
5. your hero is eventually presented with an option to end a volatile situation with an abusive companion which has is positive for your hero but bears slightly negative consequences on the rest of your gameplay (you lose out on experience, a special item, etc), inciting the player to think heavily on the decision before proceeding.
Modifié par Trista Hawke, 23 juillet 2013 - 04:55 .
#116
Posté 23 juillet 2013 - 04:42
CronoDragoon
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I think some people are limiting themselves too much to the real-world examples like alcohol abuse. Obviously the companions will have more interesting dysfunction since this is a fantasy game. But one of the cool things about this genre is the ability to exaggerate real-world issues into fantastical allegories. Anders' Vengeance spirit may not have intended to mimic certain real-world disorders, but the parallel still exists and it represents a sort of character dysfunction.
While Lyrium addiction is obviously a form of drug abuse, this type of addictive behavior can be expanded to even more interesting scenarios. You might not find an abusive alcoholic compelling, but what about a character addicted to the highs of warfare, someone who before meeting you routinely took vacations to the Deep Roads because it was the only place he could really get his fix? I think it'd be interesting to have a companion make trouble for the party because of his reactions to certain situations where he can't help but start a brawl.
While Lyrium addiction is obviously a form of drug abuse, this type of addictive behavior can be expanded to even more interesting scenarios. You might not find an abusive alcoholic compelling, but what about a character addicted to the highs of warfare, someone who before meeting you routinely took vacations to the Deep Roads because it was the only place he could really get his fix? I think it'd be interesting to have a companion make trouble for the party because of his reactions to certain situations where he can't help but start a brawl.
#117
Guest_Trista Hawke_*
Posté 23 juillet 2013 - 04:46
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CronoDragoon wrote...
I think some people are limiting themselves too much to the real-world examples like alcohol abuse. Obviously the companions will have more interesting dysfunction since this is a fantasy game. But one of the cool things about this genre is the ability to exaggerate real-world issues into fantastical allegories. Anders' Vengeance spirit may not have intended to mimic certain real-world disorders, but the parallel still exists and it represents a sort of character dysfunction.
While Lyrium addiction is obviously a form of drug abuse, this type of addictive behavior can be expanded to even more interesting scenarios. You might not find an abusive alcoholic compelling, but what about a character addicted to the highs of warfare, someone who before meeting you routinely took vacations to the Deep Roads because it was the only place he could really get his fix? I think it'd be interesting to have a companion make trouble for the party because of his reactions to certain situations where he can't help but start a brawl.
This exactly. I was just pulling random examples in my OP. I know alcohol exists in Thedas so I threw it out there. I said "drug" because I know there's lyrium addiction (dust heads) and I often wonder if there are any other dirty drugs on the streets of Thedas cities.
I think more can be done, beyond intoxication. Definitely personality disorders - fixations on war, power, greed, sex, you name it. People who are compulsive liars, compulsively defiant, compulsively violent, compulsively manipulative.
That's one thing I'd like to see: a companion who is legitimately manipulative. A cheater and a liar. You can only really get the whole experience on your first playthrough, so playing into the manipulation on 2nd, 3rd playthroughs should come with incentives.
#118
Posté 23 juillet 2013 - 04:52
Neon Rising Winter
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Trista Hawke wrote...
That's one thing I'd like to see: a companion who is legitimately manipulative. A cheater and a liar. You can only really get the whole experience on your first playthrough, so playing into the manipulation on 2nd, 3rd playthroughs should come with incentives.
Morrigan? I'm not convinced Leliana isn't either.
#119
Guest_Trista Hawke_*
Posté 23 juillet 2013 - 04:57
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Narrow Margin wrote...
Trista Hawke wrote...
That's one thing I'd like to see: a companion who is legitimately manipulative. A cheater and a liar. You can only really get the whole experience on your first playthrough, so playing into the manipulation on 2nd, 3rd playthroughs should come with incentives.
Morrigan? I'm not convinced Leliana isn't either.
She was manipulative at times, but I didn't consider her to be full on manipulative. If you gained enough friendship with her - she's fairly straight forward with your warden about everything - even the dumb ideas she gets.
#120
Guest_Trista Hawke_*
Posté 23 juillet 2013 - 04:58
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p.s. I never use Morrigan in most of my playthroughs and I guess she never bothered me much.
#121
Posté 23 juillet 2013 - 05:04
Neon Rising Winter
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Trista Hawke wrote...
Narrow Margin wrote...
Trista Hawke wrote...
That's one thing I'd like to see: a companion who is legitimately manipulative. A cheater and a liar. You can only really get the whole experience on your first playthrough, so playing into the manipulation on 2nd, 3rd playthroughs should come with incentives.
Morrigan? I'm not convinced Leliana isn't either.
She was manipulative at times, but I didn't consider her to be full on manipulative. If you gained enough friendship with her - she's fairly straight forward with your warden about everything - even the dumb ideas she gets.
For Morrigan at least. And only as far as you know. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to find out in DA:I that one or both of those two did in fact completely play you and here is where the penny drops. Not that I think this would happen, as I don't think there's much market for characters who manipulate you quite that well.
#122
Guest_Trista Hawke_*
Posté 23 juillet 2013 - 05:09
Guest_Trista Hawke_*
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Narrow Margin wrote...
Trista Hawke wrote...
Narrow Margin wrote...
Trista Hawke wrote...
That's one thing I'd like to see: a companion who is legitimately manipulative. A cheater and a liar. You can only really get the whole experience on your first playthrough, so playing into the manipulation on 2nd, 3rd playthroughs should come with incentives.
Morrigan? I'm not convinced Leliana isn't either.
She was manipulative at times, but I didn't consider her to be full on manipulative. If you gained enough friendship with her - she's fairly straight forward with your warden about everything - even the dumb ideas she gets.
For Morrigan at least. And only as far as you know. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to find out in DA:I that one or both of those two did in fact completely play you and here is where the penny drops. Not that I think this would happen, as I don't think there's much market for characters who manipulate you quite that well.
Yes, Morrigan I meant. Leilana is a bit different. She didn't seem too manipulative, but I dunno. I always had a positive experience with her as a friend. Just a friend. lol.
Your suggestion about finding out in DAI the extent of manipulation is intriguing, though hard to pull off I imagine...
#123
Posté 23 juillet 2013 - 05:32
Neon Rising Winter
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Trista Hawke wrote...
Yes, Morrigan I meant. Leilana is a bit different. She didn't seem too manipulative, but I dunno. I always had a positive experience with her as a friend. Just a friend. lol.
Your suggestion about finding out in DAI the extent of manipulation is intriguing, though hard to pull off I imagine...
I admit I had to go look it up on the Wiki, but the quote from Leliana's dialogue I always liked for making me wonder:
'People respond eagerly to others who they believe understand them. They seek approval, friendship... sometimes love. This can be exploited.'
Now are you sure she was just a friend, or is that what she wanted you to think!
Modifié par Narrow Margin, 23 juillet 2013 - 05:32 .
#124
Guest_Trista Hawke_*
Posté 23 juillet 2013 - 06:15
Guest_Trista Hawke_*
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Narrow Margin wrote...
Trista Hawke wrote...
Yes, Morrigan I meant. Leilana is a bit different. She didn't seem too manipulative, but I dunno. I always had a positive experience with her as a friend. Just a friend. lol.
Your suggestion about finding out in DAI the extent of manipulation is intriguing, though hard to pull off I imagine...
I admit I had to go look it up on the Wiki, but the quote from Leliana's dialogue I always liked for making me wonder:
'People respond eagerly to others who they believe understand them. They seek approval, friendship... sometimes love. This can be exploited.'
Now are you sure she was just a friend, or is that what she wanted you to think!
Lol well, yeah. She never did wrong by my warden - unless her manipulation was so subtle I'm too dumb to see it. Lmfao
#125
Posté 23 juillet 2013 - 06:56
Maria Caliban
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Leliana was manipulative, though I'd say she handled her dysfunctional elements well.
What does redemption have to do with mental illnesses, addiction, or dysfunctional relationships?Firky wrote...
Yes. But not without the possibility for redemption.
Modifié par Maria Caliban, 23 juillet 2013 - 06:59 .
