84 réponses à ce sujet

[capn233]

Cyonan wrote...

Depending on how much of a drawback you consider accuracy or low ammo to be, it could be either.

Either way, the Revenant doesn't need to do Harrier level damage nor weigh 2.0.

It's stupid design for the Revenant to have crap accuracy and stability and mediocre damage.

Also don't know what "need" has to do with anything.

[Cyonan]

capn233 wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

Depending on how much of a drawback you consider accuracy or low ammo to be, it could be either.

Either way, the Revenant doesn't need to do Harrier level damage nor weigh 2.0.

It's stupid design for the Revenant to have crap accuracy and stability and mediocre damage.

Also don't know what "need" has to do with anything.

I would still buff the damage, just not to the level of the Typhoon, Harrier, and Hurricane(I would also nerf both the Harrier and the Hurricane).

There are quite a few numbers between the current damage and what you're suggesting.

[capn233]

Cyonan wrote...

I would still buff the damage, just not to the level of the Typhoon, Harrier, and Hurricane(I would also nerf both the Harrier and the Hurricane).

Oh but the DR mechanic on the Typhoon is a balance consideration...

There are quite a few numbers between the current damage and what you're suggesting.

Yes there are a lot of numbers in the world.

Revenant should be the second most damaging assault rifle though.

1. Described as LMG
2. Accuracy isn't good
3. Stability isn't good
4. Movement penalty

Saving grace is that they made it too light to "balance it."

You can argue it shouldn't be the second (or 3rd if you count Spitfire) most damaging AR (which is crazy), or quibble about the absolute power of all the weapons (which is a huge discussion in and of itself).

Modifié par capn233, 23 juillet 2013 - 07:58 .

[ROBOTICSUPERMAN]

what if...the claymore and the geth spitfire swapped damages?

[Cyonan]

capn233 wrote...
Oh but the DR mechanic on the Typhoon is a balance consideration...

You mean the DR mechanic that doesn't work?

capn233 wrote...
Yes there are a lot of numbers in the world.

Revenant should be the second most damaging assault rifle though.

1. Described as LMG
2. Accuracy isn't good
3. Stability isn't good
4. Movement penalty

Saving grace is that they made it too light to "balance it."

You can argue it shouldn't be the second most damaging AR (which is crazy), or quibble about the absolute power of all the weapons (which is a huge discussion in and of itself).

1. I don't care about real world descriptions. We're playing Mass Effect, not Call of Duty or Battlefield.
2-4. These generally mean the damage should be a bit higher, yes.

You'll note that I never said it shouldn't do fairly good damage, but rather that I don't think it should be sitting at ~1200 burst DPS.

Also the Typhoon, Spitfire, and PPR should all do more DPS.

[capn233]

Cyonan wrote...

You mean the DR mechanic that doesn't work?

Yep, talking specifically about that one.  It was how it was balanced after all.  Look up the quotes.

1. I don't care about real world descriptions. We're playing Mass Effect, not Call of Duty or Battlefield.
2-4. These generally mean the damage should be a bit higher, yes.

You'll note that I never said it shouldn't do fairly good damage, but rather that I don't think it should be sitting at ~1200 burst DPS.

And here is where it breaks down.

"Don't care about the descriptions..." So you would rather invent arbitrary methods of ranking the weapons based on the ones you personally like?

Also the Typhoon, Spitfire, and PPR should all do more DPS.

Absolute no on the PPR.  Rarity tier isn't the only consideration.

edit: to clarify, the PPR does more than enough damage already and is laser accurate with actual infinite ammo.  It would be ok if the PPR could beat Revenant in actual on target DPS at mid-long range, but it is silly that it should beat it in paper DPS, especially sustained DPS.  And I would be more than happy with a Particle Rifle nerf.

Modifié par capn233, 23 juillet 2013 - 08:18 .

[Kalas Magnus]

The revenant would have to be made UR. And would be my favorite gun.

[BattleCop88]

Kalas Magnus wrote...

The revenant would have to be made UR. And would be my favorite gun.

Tge Revenant would be worthy of its rarity and description.

[capn233]

Kalas Magnus wrote...

The revenant would have to be made UR. And would be my favorite gun.

Probably really need to be Ultra Ultra Rare.

[Miniditka77]

The Revenant should weigh about 0.5 more than it does, and it should do about 1100 burst DPS.  Yeah, this would make it ridiculous on the Geth Infiltrator, but if that's the standard we're using, there are about 10 weapons on the game that are OP.

Modifié par Miniditka77, 23 juillet 2013 - 08:27 .

[capn233]

Miniditka77 wrote...

The Revenant should weigh about 0.5 more than it does, and it should do about 1100 burst DPS.  Yeah, this would make it ridiculous on the Geth Infiltrator, but if that's the standard we're using, there are about 10 weapons on the game that are OP.

Damn Geth and their master race.

[Cyonan]

capn233 wrote...
Yep, talking specifically about that one.  It was how it was balanced after all.  Look up the quotes.

Irrelevant. If BioWare's balancing was considered perfect by us we wouldn't be having this discussion. I feel the gun is fine where it is now.

capn233 wrote...
And here is where it breaks down.

"Don't care about the descriptions..." So you would rather invent arbitrary methods of ranking the weapons based on the ones you personally like?

The point of it was that the gun should be balanced on its own pros and cons and not because "it's like a LMG". As I said, we're playing a sci-fi game rather than a modern military shooter. It having similarities to a real world gun doesn't  mean it needs to be exactly like that gun.

capn233 wrote...
Absolute no on the PPR.  Rarity tier isn't the only consideration.

edit: to clarify, the PPR does more than enough damage already and is laser accurate with actual infinite ammo.  It would be ok if the PPR could beat Revenant in actual on target DPS at mid-long range, but it is silly that it should beat it in paper DPS, especially sustained DPS.  And I would be more than happy with a Particle Rifle nerf.

The PPR does enough damage already, but consider that it has a ramp up time and even if you don't overheat the gun the reload time is still longer than any non infinite ammo weapon in the game.

Also if we buff the Revenant, even by 1 damage per bullet, it will do more sustained DPS than the PPR on paper. It's only 4 DPS lower right now.

[Malanek]

Cyonan wrote...
The PPR does enough damage already, but consider that it has a ramp up time and even if you don't overheat the gun the reload time is still longer than any non infinite ammo weapon in the game.

Also if we buff the Revenant, even by 1 damage per bullet, it will do more sustained DPS than the PPR on paper. It's only 4 DPS lower right now.

I'm a bit shocked by that. It must be the accuracy that ruins the theoretical dps then because the Revenant feels rubbish to me.

[iOnlySignIn]

The real losers here are the Typhoon and the Spitfire. Either way.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 23 juillet 2013 - 08:53 .

[capn233]

Cyonan wrote...

Irrelevant. If BioWare's balancing was considered perfect by us we wouldn't be having this discussion. I feel the gun is fine where it is now.

We are actually having this discussion because I thought the forum could use another completely serious thread.

The point of it was that the gun should be balanced on its own pros and cons and not because "it's like a LMG". As I said, we're playing a sci-fi game rather than a modern military shooter. It having similarities to a real world gun doesn't  mean it needs to be exactly like that gun.

Are you sure the point wasn't to invoke the "COD" card and instantly discredit the argument you are attacking?

It is relevant.  You should know there are infinite ways to achieve balance and you have to start from somewhere.  It is also misleading to claim that the weapon categories are not suposed to be analagous to modern day analogues, even if the comparison does not make complete sense based on the way they are supposed to function (ie railgun vs select fire weapon with detachable box magazine chambered in an intermediate cartridge).  They are clearly meant to be the "future" version of modern day archetypes or else they wouldn't be damn near similar to modern weapons in practical functioning.

More to the point regarding the Revenant and other game analogues, it is inaccurate, unstable, and has a movement penalty.  Those are not commonly associated with middling damage unless you are trying to make an ironic shooter.

The PPR does enough damage already, but consider that it has a ramp up time and even if you don't overheat the gun the reload time is still longer than any non infinite ammo weapon in the game.

Also if we buff the Revenant, even by 1 damage per bullet, it will do more sustained DPS than the PPR on paper. It's only 4 DPS lower right now.

Also consider that PPR has perfect stability, is "laser" accurate, and infinite ammo is an advantage, even if it does take time to recharge.

It is a mistake to assume that buffing the Revenant so it had a slight paper DPS sustained advantage over the PPR would in any way make it superior to the PPR.  PPR would still murder it in burst DPS, and on target sustained DPS would likely also still be in favor of PPR.  In any event, a weapon that has infinite ammo and is much easier to hit the target with should not have such marked paper DPS advantages.

Modifié par capn233, 23 juillet 2013 - 08:57 .

[Malanek]

Also note that the Hurricane damage is supposed to represent 2 bullets, I'm guessing that is not what the OP wanted?

[capn233]

Malanek999 wrote...

I'm a bit shocked by that. It must be the accuracy that ruins the theoretical dps then because the Revenant feels rubbish to me.

That is most of it.  Then you can argue the merits of sustained vs burst damage and which is actually preferrable in ME3...

Malanek999 wrote...

Also note that the Hurricane damage is supposed to represent 2 bullets, I'm guessing that is not what the OP wanted?

Actually I just didn't want to discuss the royal baby and thought this would be a fun thread.

You are right, the Hurricane is supposed to simulate 1200 rounds per minute, with side effects like being better than most AR's against armor.

Modifié par capn233, 23 juillet 2013 - 08:50 .

[Cyonan]

Malanek999 wrote...

Cyonan wrote...
The PPR does enough damage already, but consider that it has a ramp up time and even if you don't overheat the gun the reload time is still longer than any non infinite ammo weapon in the game.

Also if we buff the Revenant, even by 1 damage per bullet, it will do more sustained DPS than the PPR on paper. It's only 4 DPS lower right now.

I'm a bit shocked by that. It must be the accuracy that ruins the theoretical dps then because the Revenant feels rubbish to me.

If you get close enough to hit most of your bullets I find the damage output pretty decent, though still in need of some kind of a buff.

I imagine that the PPR also feels like it does a lot more because it spikes much higher during the clip. The Revenant will make up that damage by being better at reloading, however.

[Kenadian]

Cyonan wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

Cyonan wrote...
The PPR does enough damage already, but consider that it has a ramp up time and even if you don't overheat the gun the reload time is still longer than any non infinite ammo weapon in the game.

Also if we buff the Revenant, even by 1 damage per bullet, it will do more sustained DPS than the PPR on paper. It's only 4 DPS lower right now.

I'm a bit shocked by that. It must be the accuracy that ruins the theoretical dps then because the Revenant feels rubbish to me.

If you get close enough to hit most of your bullets I find the damage output pretty decent, though still in need of some kind of a buff.

I imagine that the PPR also feels like it does a lot more because it spikes much higher during the clip. The Revenant will make up that damage by being better at reloading, however.

How doe the Rev's accuracy compare to the Typhoon's? Because I think making them the same would essentially wipe out problems with the Rev.

[capn233]

Kenadian wrote...

How doe the Rev's accuracy compare to the Typhoon's? Because I think making them the same would essentially wipe out problems with the Rev.

If Revenant didn't have cartoon accuracy, it would be pretty good.

I fooled around with that in SP, although also bumped ROF to 700 (which is what it was in ME2).

[Cyonan]

capn233 wrote...
Are you sure the point wasn't to invoke the "COD" card and instantly discredit the argument you are attacking?

It is relevant.  You should know there are an infinite way to achieve balance and you have to start from somewhere.  It is also misleading to claim that the weapon categories are not suposed to be analagous to modern day analogues, even if the comparison does not make complete sense based on the way they are supposed to function (ie railgun vs select fire weapon with detachable box magazine chambered in an intermediate cartridge).  They are clearly meant to be the "future" version of modern day archetypes or else you wouldn't be damn near similar to modern weapons in practical functioning.

More to the point regarding the Revenant and other game analogues, it is inaccurate, unstable, and has a movement penalty.  Those are not commonly associated with middling damage unless you are trying to make an ironic shooter.

I'll change it to "We aren't playing Counter-Strike" if it makes you feel any better.

It's only misleading to gun enthusiasts, not to gamers in general. For how much I know about real world guns I would probably think that shotguns are long ranged weapons with scopes on them had video games switched them with sniper rifles, so I can't possibly be misled.

Remember, you're talking about the game that has a pistol which is really a shotgun and an Assault Rifle that shoots laser beams.

The facts about the Revenant that should be considered in balancing  are:

> It has a good ammo supply and clip size
> It is about mid weight at 1.25
> It's one of the least accurate guns in the game
> It has a lot of recoil
> Firing causes your character to walk, which causes many kits to move slower.
> It has average damage output
> It has no secondary attributes(defence modifiers, penetration, etc.)

capn233 wrote...

Also consider that PPR has perfect stability, is "laser" accurate, and infinite ammo is an advantage, even if it does take time to recharge.

It is a mistake to assume that buffing the Revenant so it had a slight paper DPS sustained advantage over the PPR would in any way make it superior to the PPR.  PPR would still murder it in burst DPS, and on target sustained DPS would likely also still be in favor of PPR.  In any event, a weapon that has infinite ammo and is much easier to hit the target with should not have such marked paper DPS advantages.

and if we buffed the damage to even like 90, it would have more than a slight on-paper sustained DPS over the PPR.

You also neglected to mention the ramp up time, which is a fairly big deal. The PPR doesn't surpass the current Revenant in burst DPS until about 4 seconds of continuous fire, which makes the Revenant's time to kill superior for quite a few non boss mobs.

PPR also has a much bigger punishment for emptying the clip than that Revenant does.

[Cyonan]

Kenadian wrote...

How doe the Rev's accuracy compare to the Typhoon's? Because I think making them the same would essentially wipe out problems with the Rev.

The Revenant's spread is 1.2 - 2.5 while the Typhoon's is 0.65 - 1.2. That is while zoomed in.

The only non pellet based weapons that are less accurate than the Revenant is the Hurricane and Blood Pack Punisher.

Reducing the spread would fix the problems with the Revanant, though I would rather give it a bit of a damage buff personally.

[capn233]

Cyonan wrote...

I'll change it to "We aren't playing Counter-Strike" if it makes you feel any better.

You can just leave out the straw man altogether.

It's only misleading to gun enthusiasts, not to gamers in general. For how much I know about real world guns I would probably think that shotguns are long ranged weapons with scopes on them had video games switched them with sniper rifles, so I can't possibly be misled.

This is pretty absurd so I won't dwell on it.

Remember, you're talking about the game that has a pistol which is really a shotgun and an Assault Rifle that shoots laser beams.

Well pistols that shoot like shotguns exist currently.  But really still irrelevant...

The facts about the Revenant that should be considered in balancing  are:

> It has a good ammo supply and clip size
> It is about mid weight at 1.25
> It's one of the least accurate guns in the game
> It has a lot of recoil
> Firing causes your character to walk, which causes many kits to move slower.
> It has average damage output
> It has no secondary attributes(defence modifiers, penetration, etc.)

All of which you can actually change.  You act as if some of these are absolutely set in stone, when the weight was changed in an MP Balance change...

and if we buffed the damage to even like 90, it would have more than a slight on-paper sustained DPS over the PPR.

It is significantly less accurate and doesn't have an oddball recharge, so it should win in paper sustained DPS, and by a decent margin.

You also neglected to mention the ramp up time, which is a fairly big deal. The PPR doesn't surpass the current Revenant in burst DPS until about 4 seconds of continuous fire, which makes the Revenant's time to kill superior for quite a few non boss mobs.

I neglected to mention it because repeating something I quoted isn't completely necessary.

I also call shenanigans on your 4 second number since it is probably a pure paper comparison without an account of the fact that PPR has perfect accuracy and Revenant has crap accuracy.

PPR also has a much bigger punishment for emptying the clip than that Revenant does.

Probably because burst DPS is a metric assload higher, as is accuracy.  And stability.

Modifié par capn233, 23 juillet 2013 - 09:34 .

[Tokenusername]

I think the point Cyonan is making (which I agree with) is that flavor text should never dictate balance.

[Malanek]

I thought the points he was making was that
a) The Revenant wasn't quite as bad as some people believe
Balance should also take into account uniqueness of the weapon so it shouldn't be balanced in a way that it resembles another weapon, rather keep the unique aspects and tweak in another way
c) Gameplay is more important than realism