84 réponses à ce sujet

[Tokenusername]

Forgive my lack of clarification. I meant specifically the whole "LMG" bit.

[capn233]

Tokenusername wrote...

I think the point Cyonan is making (which I agree with) is that flavor text should never dictate balance.

The game would end if the Avenger really was deadly on full auto.

Recognizing that the Revenant has been called an LMG, performed like a squad automatic weapon in ME2 (which incidentally isn't COD or Counter Strike, or Sim City for that matter, just to be clear), and started out with above average weight (2.0-1.4) should lead someone to believe that they were going for a certain type of weapon.

Malanek999 wrote...

a) The Revenant wasn't quite as bad as some people believe
Balance should also take into account uniqueness of the weapon so it shouldn't be balanced in a way that it resembles another weapon, rather keep the unique aspects and tweak in another way
c) Gameplay is more important than realism

The problem with any of that is that:

a) I am not making appeals to popular opinion.  Comparisons have been made to the weapon which should be most similar to the Revenant in "style," namely the Typhoon.
Nobody really suggested making the Revenant feel a whole lot different.
c) Nobody asked to make this game more realistic.

Modifié par capn233, 23 juillet 2013 - 10:00 .

[Cyonan]

capn233 wrote...
All of which you can actually change.  You act as if some of these are absolutely set in stone, when the weight was changed in an MP Balance change...

If you change too much, then you change what the Revenant is at the core which I consider to be worse than having an unbalanced weapon. There is always a way to balance a weapon while keeping the feel essentially the same.

Also yes, my point is that flavour text and similarities to real world weapons should not dictate balance. Remember, the Avenger is deadly when fired on full auto.

capn233 wrote...

It is significantly less accurate and doesn't have an oddball recharge, so it should win in paper sustained DPS, and by a decent margin.

I neglected to mention it because repeating something I quoted isn't completely necessary.

I also call shenanigans on your 4 second number since it is probably a pure paper comparison without an account of the fact that PPR has perfect accuracy and Revenant has crap accuracy.

Probably because burst DPS is a metric assload higher, as is accuracy.  And stability.

It's shenanigans because it was an on paper comparison? Good to know, I'll just disregard your point about the Revenant beating the theoretical sustained DPS of the PPR then(sustained DPS numbers are kind of BS anyway truth be told).

You're also arguing based on the current Revenant, which I have stated multiple time already that I would buff it.

There is however a difference between "don't buff it at all" and "don't buff to to the level of the Hurricane".

[capn233]

Cyonan wrote...

If you change too much, then you change what the Revenant is at the core which I consider to be worse than having an unbalanced weapon. There is always a way to balance a weapon while keeping the feel essentially the same.

What is the core?  You are arbitrarily stating the core is something like the half balanced state that it is in, and ingnoring the history.  ME2 continuity should be relevant here.

Also yes, my point is that flavour text and similarities to real world weapons should not dictate balance. Remember, the Avenger is deadly when fired on full auto.

It isn't dictating balance, it is dictating that "core" you talked about.  There are a million ways to balance the weapons.  The Revenant is supposed to be an LMG, it should behave somewhat like it did in ME2.

It's shenanigans because it was an on paper comparison? Good to know, I'll just disregard your point about the Revenant beating the theoretical sustained DPS of the PPR then(sustained DPS numbers are kind of BS anyway truth be told).

I gave you a metric for what I feel the power of the Revenant should be.  It should be better at sustained paper DPS than the Particle Rifle precisely because it is significantly less accurate (which isn't accounted for in paper DPS), and is significantly behind in burst DPS (which we probably both agree is more useful).  You were the one bellyaching that Revenant is nearly the same as PPR at sustained DPS and if we buffed Revenant by 1 it would beat PPR in sustained DPS, as if that would unbalance the game.  Now "oh yeah sustained is bs."

You tried to demonstrate that paper DPS wasn't everything by cherry picking the PPR's charge up time dps vs some theoretical Revenant number that is not in any way practical against humanoid targets at any range.  Anyone and their mother could realise PPR theoretical paper numbers but they absolutely will not with Revenant except on certain characters.  That is why we have comments about how the PPR seems much stronger than Revenant despite a minor sustained paper DPS advantage.  This is why we see PPR in games more often than Revenant.  This is why anybody that has played this game at all knows that the current PPR is leaps and bounds better than the current Revenant.

You're also arguing based on the current Revenant, which I have stated multiple time already that I would buff it.

There is however a difference between "don't buff it at all" and "don't buff to to the level of the Hurricane".

Am I basing it on the current Revenant, or a real gun or what?  Which one is it?

I have made no serious claim that the Revenant should be buffed to Hurricane levels, even though hilariously enough the game would be in better balance if the two damage numbers were swapped.  Not perfect, but it would be more in line than currently.

We got on this track because you think the gun should only weigh 1.4 and be mediocre, while I think a highly inaccurate, unstable, movement penalty inducing weapon that even has a relatively large in game model should weigh more and do appropriate damage for the weight.

Modifié par capn233, 24 juillet 2013 - 12:44 .

[Tallgeese_VII]

Anything that helps Revanant to be better than what it is now is great idea.
Maybe such change will even make BPP look like less joke.

[Tokenusername]

capn233 wrote...

You are arbitrarily stating the core is something like the half balanced state that it is in, and ingnoring the history.  ME2 continuity should be relevant here.
...
The Revenant is supposed to be an LMG, it should behave somewhat like it did in ME2.

Nostalgia should not dictate balance either.

Modifié par Tokenusername, 23 juillet 2013 - 11:16 .

[UnknownMercenary]

I believe I've suggested this in the past.

Swapping the actual damage numbers would be silly because the Hurricane is OP as hell damage-wise, and then I'd have to buff the Typhoon.

Also screw the Spitfire, lamest videogame minigun I have ever used.

[Cyonan]

capn233 wrote...

We got on this track because you think the gun should only weigh 1.4 and be mediocre, while I think a highly inaccurate, unstable, movement penalty inducing weapon that even has a relatively large in game model should weigh more and do appropriate damage for the weight.

 

The core of a weapon is the feel of it. For the Revenant this means being inaccurate and spraying a lot of bullets at the target. It does not mean doing underpowered damage.

Everything else is irrelevant, because you're just ignoring that I have said to buff the Revenant multiple times and trying to make arguments that the current Revenant should be buffed to be more like a LMG.

You're either not reading my posts or just trolling.

[capn233]

Cyonan wrote...

The core of a weapon is the feel of it. For the Revenant this means being inaccurate and spraying a lot of bullets at the target. It does not mean doing underpowered damage.

Everything else is irrelevant, because you're just ignoring that I have said to buff the Revenant multiple times and trying to make arguments that the current Revenant should be buffed to be more like a LMG.

We'll just agree to disagree, especially if you keep getting hung up on the LMG despite it being called that, feeling like one in ME2 and in general being something that should behave like one.  Or the fact that it feels like a heavy weapon in use despite it's mid-range encumbrance... which was really pretty middling even at 1.4.  And in fact feels the most like another weapon that is called "sfxgamecontentdlc_con_gun02.sfxweapon_assaultrifle_lmg_gun02," even if it feels like it should do similar damage.

Modifié par capn233, 24 juillet 2013 - 12:13 .

[Cyonan]

capn233 wrote...
We'll just agree to disagree, especially if you keep getting hung up on the LMG despite it being called that, feeling like one in ME2 and in general being something that should behave like one.  Or the fact that it feels like a heavy weapon in use despite it's mid-range encumbrance... which was really pretty middling even at 1.4.  And in fact feels the most like another weapon that is called "sfxgamecontentdlc_con_gun02.sfxweapon_assaultrifle_lmg_gun02," even if it feels like it should do similar damage.

The thing is that we actually agree that the Revenant should be buffed(we seem to disagree on the PPR, but whatever).

My original point a few pages ago was that similarities to real world weapons should not dictate the balance of a weapon in a video game, unless maybe you're playing a modern military shooter and going for realism.

[landylan]

I would just use the revenant then.

[capn233]

Cyonan wrote...

The thing is that we actually agree that the Revenant should be buffed(we seem to disagree on the PPR, but whatever).

Yes.  SO WHY ARE WE ALL SHOUTING.

My original point a few pages ago was that similarities to real world weapons should not dictate the balance of a weapon in a video game, unless maybe you're playing a modern military shooter and going for realism.

I somewhat agree, but I introduced LMG since Revenant was called a "machine gun" in ME2, not because I want it to be some gun out of Call of Duty.

I think most of the weapons are also too light in the game anyway, which is why I wanted to make the Revenant heavier than at release as well.

[Simba501]

modok8 wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

Then the Revenant would do too much damage and be overpowered.

at least it would weigh more than the predator

[Tybo]

 To be honest, the only reason the Hurricane is super OP is that the SMG Heat Sink is by far the most OP mod in the game  (Only possible competition is the smart choke, but imo the shotguns are pretty much designed with using a smart choke in mind).  Without it, it really wouldn't be that good.  Nice, but worse than a Harrier for almost all cases.  Of course, with its 3x larger clip, the Revenant with Hurricane damage would still be super OP.

I do agree that the Revenant could certainly use a sizable buff.  I'm not sure if I'd go higher than the PPR in "burst", though, especially considering a Revenant burst lasts quite a long while.
 
I consider the infinite ammo to be a significant disadvantage, as it reduces the gun's flexibility.  Also, the PPR charge up time is quite painful.  That said, the pinpoint accuracy is a huge help, and the clip size is so large that you can generally ignore "sustained" DPS with it, as by the time you need to stop shooting everything is dead.  Even on a Gold solo, if you've got good aim.  I wouldn't mind a nerf to it, but I don't think it should be too much.  

Also note that in "sustained" DPS, the Revenant and PPR are only close without mag size mods.  Add in the mag mod to both, and the PPR will get a significant increase.

Modifié par tyhw, 24 juillet 2013 - 03:06 .

[solidprice]

i would be a little sad about the hurricane nerf.
then be happy that i can actually use a the grandpa of ME lmg's on gold/plat.

and the bpp/csmg would see much more use. maybe even the hornet too if it got a buff as well.

[capn233]

tyhw wrote...

I do agree that the Revenant could certainly use a sizable buff.  I'm not sure if I'd go higher than the PPR in "burst", though, especially considering a Revenant burst lasts quite a long while.

Yes, PPR should have higher "single clip" dps than the Revenant.  All the "infinite" ammo ones should rate relatively high in that metric at least relative to their encumbrance.

[Oni Changas]

CORRECTION: This would be ME2

[Nitrocuban]

Revenant should be the big brother of Hurricane, i.e. same insane dps in theory and kicking like a mad donkey but more benefits on top to compensate for higher weight and movment speed penalty.
More ammo, higher ammo/clip, armorpiercing, damage reduction while shooting. Something that makes the Revenant worth using even with (mandatory) stability mod.

[Deerber]

Man, that would be nice indeed!

[Cyonan]

tyhw wrote...

Also note that in "sustained" DPS, the Revenant and PPR are only close without mag size mods.  Add in the mag mod to both, and the PPR will get a significant increase.

As long as we're talking about sustained DPS here, I might as well explain what I meant when I called it a BS stat.

Simply put, you're almost never actually at the theoretical sustained DPS value.

Instead, you jump between sustained and burst DPS values, moving towards the sustained value. If you were to look at average DPS over time it would eventually even out at the theoretical sustained DPS value, but not until a very long amount of time has passed(likely it would be hours).

The only time that you are actually at the theoretical sustained DPS number is at the exact point where you have finished reloading but have not begun firing yet. Any other time, you are actually above that.

The PPR will function slightly differently than that because of the ramp up time, during which you should drop below the sustained DPS value because you're only doing about 330 DPS.

[Tokenusername]

Nitrocuban wrote...

Revenant should be the big brother of Hurricane, i.e. same insane dps in theory and kicking like a mad donkey but more benefits on top to compensate for higher weight and movment speed penalty.
More ammo, higher ammo/clip, armorpiercing, damage reduction while shooting. Something that makes the Revenant worth using even with (mandatory) stability mod.

Lowering accuracy would be better than lowering stability, as stability is much easier to compensate for.

[capn233]

Cyonan wrote...

The PPR will function slightly differently than that because of the ramp up time, during which you should drop below the sustained DPS value because you're only doing about 330 DPS.

But it is relatively easy to magically transform that into ~860/s against trash mobs.

Which coincidentally is similar to Revenant's theoretical "single clip" number, which happens to be more difficult to transform into a theoretical 2100 against anything not 2ft in front of you.  Unless you stack on Accuracy mods, or use an accuracy boosting class.

The main thing is that I can't simply hide and heat up the gun on a wall, then move out and melt a whole mob at 3000dps with the Revi.

[boomshaquanda]

capn233 wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

The PPR will function slightly differently than that because of the ramp up time, during which you should drop below the sustained DPS value because you're only doing about 330 DPS.

But it is relatively easy to magically transform that into ~860/s against trash mobs.

Which coincidentally is similar to Revenant's theoretical "single clip" number, which happens to be more difficult to transform into a theoretical 2100 against anything not 2ft in front of you.  Unless you stack on Accuracy mods, or use an accuracy boosting class.

The main thing is that I can't simply hide and heat up the gun on a wall, then move out and melt a whole mob at 3000dps with the Revi.

I would be fine with an accuracy buff. Hurricane is UR though, so is PPR. I took a 3-4 month break from the game so my Hurricane and PPR aren't completely leveled up, and it'll take a while. I appreciate the current balance because it seems fair to me. Only speaking for myself. Still though, the Revenant could use an accuracy boost in my opinion.

[capn233]

boomshaquanda wrote...

 I would be fine with an accuracy buff. Hurricane is UR though, so is PPR. I took a 3-4 month break from the game so my Hurricane and PPR aren't completely leveled up, and it'll take a while. I appreciate the current balance because it seems fair to me. Only speaking for myself. Still though, the Revenant could use an accuracy boost in my opinion.

Eh, honestly the only way I would buff the Revenant accuracy (if I was set on it) is messing around with the min zoom aim error and bloom speed so that short bursts are a bit more accurate, but long bursts are still wild.

[Nitrocuban]

Tokenusername wrote...

Nitrocuban wrote...

Revenant should be the big brother of Hurricane, i.e. same insane dps in theory and kicking like a mad donkey but more benefits on top to compensate for higher weight and movment speed penalty.
More ammo, higher ammo/clip, armorpiercing, damage reduction while shooting. Something that makes the Revenant worth using even with (mandatory) stability mod.

Lowering accuracy would be better than lowering stability, as stability is much easier to compensate for.

The thing is, we have all those perks (weapon mod, gear, consumables) for stability that actually nobody uses cause most weapons don't have high recoil and are better with other perks like HVB, railamps and so on.
(The Hurricane is the perfect weapon for a Vanguard and does not need stability either)
Like the Harrier is limited by ammo, the Revenant should be limited by stability. Yes it can be compensated with the right equipment but with some drawbacks (like using Barrage Gear instead of AR gear)
If the Revenant has low accuracy only very few kits with certain powers/passives can use it and stability perks are still of no value for anybody except the 0.1% of players using the Striker.