84 réponses à ce sujet

[Cyonan]

capn233 wrote...

But it is relatively easy to magically transform that into ~860/s against trash mobs.

Which coincidentally is similar to Revenant's theoretical "single clip" number, which happens to be more difficult to transform into a theoretical 2100 against anything not 2ft in front of you.  Unless you stack on Accuracy mods, or use an accuracy boosting class.

The main thing is that I can't simply hide and heat up the gun on a wall, then move out and melt a whole mob at 3000dps with the Revi.

To be fair, against trash mobs sustained DPS doesn't mean anything at all because the thing should be dead before your clip runs out, especially for the Revenant or PPR which both have fairly good sized clips.

The Revenant theoretically is better at killing a single trash mob(it should be dead before the PPR is heated up) while the PPR is theoretically better at taking out multiples(which is the more likely scenario).

Theorycrafting on the PPR is a bit weird in general because of the ramp up. The PPR's damage output will jump between 0, 344, and 1376 while the Revenant's will only be 0 or 861.25(assuming you can hit all your bullets). What this means is that the PPR's damage output will remain lower longer than any other weapon but it will also spike higher than any other weapon except the Piranha or Reegar Carbine.

While I would certainly call the PPR a much better weapon than the Revenant, I would not put too much faith into the theorycrafted DPS numbers, since theorycrafting by nature is flawed due to our need to assume certain things to be able to even produce a number =P

[Tybo]

Cyonan:

Of course that is true, and I agree. Thus the "". That is why I remodeled the weapon calculator, to show how DPS numbers don't tell the whole story, instead simply measuring how long any given enemy will take to die.

Of course, I never got the functions for the PPR/Typhoon in, as they require special calls for their damage, and I got lazy. I did at one point come up with a handy chart showing at what point the PPR catches up to some other guns in damage, (pretty quick on most guns, but large clip/high DPS aka Hurricane stayed ahead until most enemies would be dead) but that is lost somewhere now.

[capn233]

Cyonan wrote...

To be fair, against trash mobs sustained DPS doesn't mean anything at all because the thing should be dead before your clip runs out, especially for the Revenant or PPR which both have fairly good sized clips.

The Revenant theoretically is better at killing a single trash mob(it should be dead before the PPR is heated up) while the PPR is theoretically better at taking out multiples(which is the more likely scenario).

Theorycrafting on the PPR is a bit weird in general because of the ramp up. The PPR's damage output will jump between 0, 344, and 1376 while the Revenant's will only be 0 or 861.25(assuming you can hit all your bullets). What this means is that the PPR's damage output will remain lower longer than any other weapon but it will also spike higher than any other weapon except the Piranha or Reegar Carbine.

While I would certainly call the PPR a much better weapon than the Revenant, I would not put too much faith into the theorycrafted DPS numbers, since theorycrafting by nature is flawed due to our need to assume certain things to be able to even produce a number =P

Yes I agree... and it is mainly because I think that accuracy is a bigger handicap on more classes than ramp up time, even if PPR has somewhat poor ramp time you can mitigate it by "preheating" on a wall before being exposed to fire, or simply aim for the head where the damage is respectable.

Also why on the flip side accuracy boosting talents can be "very powerful" on certain weapons...

[Cyonan]

tyhw wrote...

Cyonan:

Of course that is true, and I agree. Thus the "". That is why I remodeled the weapon calculator, to show how DPS numbers don't tell the whole story, instead simply measuring how long any given enemy will take to die.

Of course, I never got the functions for the PPR/Typhoon in, as they require special calls for their damage, and I got lazy. I did at one point come up with a handy chart showing at what point the PPR catches up to some other guns in damage, (pretty quick on most guns, but large clip/high DPS aka Hurricane stayed ahead until most enemies would be dead) but that is lost somewhere now.

I figured I would just clarify it for the thread, since I kind of randomly threw in a "oh yeah, and sustained DPS is BS" there =P

I know for the Revenant it's around 4 seconds(assuming the guy with the Revenant hit every shot), so basically only 2 seconds of fully ramped up damage to catch up to a gun which actually has a pretty decent theoretical DPS(it's the accuracy that kills it in-game) meaning for the majority of weapons it will be very quick.

I'd also add in length of burst as stat that can end up being important. The AT-12's burst DPS specifically is very misleading because the burst doesn't even last a full second.

Modifié par Cyonan, 24 juillet 2013 - 07:13 .

[Cyonan]

capn233 wrote...
Yes I agree... and it is mainly because I think that accuracy is a bigger handicap on more classes than ramp up time, even if PPR has somewhat poor ramp time you can mitigate it by "preheating" on a wall before being exposed to fire, or simply aim for the head where the damage is respectable.

Also why on the flip side accuracy boosting talents can be "very powerful" on certain weapons...

My thought process to really to break down what both of them mean, which in my mind results in both of them having potential DPS loss in the form of either needing to close the distance(this is time spent not firing) or heating up the gun.

In addition to that, inaccuracy has an added risk to it since it means CQC(skilled players can negate that, but what skill level to balance around is an entirely different discussion)

Ramp up time also means 3 additional things:

1. If something has already closed the distance with you, you have a 2 second delay on being able to deal any real damage to it.
2. Being staggered is a massive DPS loss, as you have an additional 2 second delay before getting back to full damage output(N7 Destroyer says lol).
3. You basically can't use abilities on a regular basis without crippling your weapon DPS.

As to how you rank each of those weaknesses, it will be different for each of us.

[capn233]

Yes they both have very real losses from the ideal numbers, and neither is necessarily "optimal" on a caster...

As far as casters that can "improve" the Revenant, it is basically only GE or Turian Sentinel, although either could be considered hybrid weapon/power anyway. Otherwise you are saddled with poor accuracy. You can take the AR Scope and improve it, but that mod slot isn't exactly free.

Heat up time isn't going to be improved, but you can work around that more easily, IMO. Any biotic w/ WA can prime and damage in cool time will be a good deal better. And you should have powers to at least stagger an enemy if they get close. No it isn't a power spam play style, but it won't turn out to be less effective most likely (insert token arguments about the game being gun-centric here).

On "weapon classes" it completely breaks down, and where these weapons would likely be run anyway. Devastator Mode, Marksman, Hunter Mode all can improve Revenant's accuracy, and inch you closer to theorycrafted DPS. But the thing is any of the characters with those abilities (except Marksman classes) will ultimately perform much better with the PPR if spec'd to suit either weapon. So extra magazine size on Destroyer, no ROF in HM. GI with Revenant is sort of fun (ran it a bit a real long time ago), but PPR GI?

Or assume GE w/ weapon spec in Networked AI... PPR w/ HVB ExtMag / Incendiary... Overload for detonation. CD is 4.57s. Time to light trash mobs on fire then blow them up. Revi is ok for this, but will be much worse vs bosses.

Getting staggered will kill the damage, but the work around is playstyle mainly... use right hand advantage.

I agree different people may put greater emphasis on different things, but really I think the ramp time is not as big a disadvantage over more kits, nor is the minor weight penalty really. As with the infinite ammo guns, you have to recharge at some point anyway so might as well cast. Revenant you could reload forever until out of TC's, so while you won't necessarily tank your practical damage with it, you still are wasting time you could have been firing the weapon anyway.

edit:  Actually Marksman classes might hit some weird high spike DPS number w/ PPR and actually might beat Revenant on the same class in the game, it is just that you have the downside of more relative cool time, which is why I probably wouldn't run either gun on them, but if I have to run Revenant they are a decent choice.

Modifié par capn233, 24 juillet 2013 - 08:08 .

[Tybo]

A significant portion of the DPS loss due to inaccuracy is not simply due to needing to close the distance, but also because you lose the headshot multiplier. There is really no way to make up for this: to be close enough to get all hits as headshots with the revenant, you'd pretty much have to be inside the enemy's model. The PPR can do this from any range the stream reaches.

IMO you are underestimating the huge boost that accuracy gives.

EDIT:  I realize that this isn't really the crux of your argument, but I think it is an important point that you aren't fully accounting for.

Modifié par tyhw, 24 juillet 2013 - 08:27 .

[Cyonan]

To be fair, I probably don't count the headshot thing as much since I tend to be in cover while firing the Revenant, as I don't find doing so anywhere close to as hard as the BSN claims it is on Gold. Provided I'm "in range" with the gun then I have a rather good headshot rate anyway.

As far as weapons kits go, I would put the Human Soldier as the best of them for the Revenant since Adrenaline Rush means you don't ever reload the gun. I don't believe Marksman can do this.

and if we're counting Warp Rounds here, then every biotic can improve the Revenant quite a bit. I've used it on my Asari Justicar with that setup and it's solid.

If you're going to negate the stagger thing because skilled players can exploit RHA, then the increased risk of CQC also needs to be negated just as much since skilled players can get around that to a certain degree.

Also keep in mind that I already agree'd the Revenant is underpowered. Pointing out that certain classes currently do better with the PPR is meaningless to this discussion as it is about ramp up time vs inaccuracy and which one is a bigger weakness, not about which one is better between the Revenant or the PPR.

[Tokenusername]

Nitrocuban wrote...

The thing is, we have all those perks (weapon mod, gear, consumables) for stability that actually nobody uses cause most weapons don't have high recoil and are better with other perks like HVB, railamps and so on.
(The Hurricane is the perfect weapon for a Vanguard and does not need stability either)
Like the Harrier is limited by ammo, the Revenant should be limited by stability. Yes it can be compensated with the right equipment but with some drawbacks (like using Barrage Gear instead of AR gear)
If the Revenant has low accuracy only very few kits with certain powers/passives can use it and stability perks are still of no value for anybody except the 0.1% of players using the Striker.

You shouldn't base you balancing decisions on trying to get players to use bonus equipment or buffs. Weapons should all be viable within their own right, and adding bonus only improves their effectiveness, not be required. A weapon like the Argus is a great example. The kick on it is ungodly. I don't know of anyone that can use it effectively with the use of some kind of stability bonus. A good use of bonus would be like on a weapon like the Harrier. Now hold your 'OP's, i'm referring specifically to its innate recoil, not the weapon as a whole. The weapon is perfectly capable of landing shots by itself, but adding stability bonuses can lead to near zero recoil and increasing the ease of landing shots, and thus increasing the weapons effectiveness.
Also, i'm not sure how easy it is to do with a mouse, but I know at least for console that stability issues on weapons can be easily countered without any form of equipment by just flicking the stick when you shoot. Often I just do it automatically for high recoil weapons without really realising it.

My idea for the Revenant is that it should be very powerful, but tempered by terrible accuracy. You can't hit very much with it, but the hits you do land, hurt. Something like being able to kill a mook in four shots, but only landing those four shots in a like 20 round burst at mid-range (just throwing numbers, feel free to pick it apart). This makes it able to level crowds at a distance (since obviously more targets equals more hits), devastate enemies at close range, and possible most importantly allows it to co-exist with a weapon like the Typhoon.

Modifié par Tokenusername, 24 juillet 2013 - 09:15 .

[capn233]

Cyonan wrote...

To be fair, I probably don't count the headshot thing as much since I tend to be in cover while firing the Revenant, as I don't find doing so anywhere close to as hard as the BSN claims it is on Gold. Provided I'm "in range" with the gun then I have a rather good headshot rate anyway.

It is a huge advantage for PPR since it is much easier to stay in HS multiplier at all ranges (except beyond PPR range where Revi accuracy is so crap as to not be a practical advantage).

As far as weapons kits go, I would put the Human Soldier as the best of them for the Revenant since Adrenaline Rush means you don't ever reload the gun. I don't believe Marksman can do this.

Human soldier... yes it is one of the 'better' kits for Revenant, but it has pretty obscene burst damage with PPR...

and if we're counting Warp Rounds here, then every biotic can improve the Revenant quite a bit. I've used it on my Asari Justicar with that setup and it's solid.

You are missing the point... we aren't talking about pure damage, what we are talking about are intrinsic disadvantages that lead to reduced practical DPS.  For Revenant it is basically the accuracy.  For PPR it is hot time and recharge.  Warp Ammo ammo lessens the hit from heat up time much more than it helps the Revenant hit the target.  Yes Revenant will do more damage when it hits, but you are still less likely to get into HS multiplier and importantly it still is at a huge disadvantage damage wise against anything that isn't weak enough to be killed in PPR cool time (basically more than one humanoid target, or basically every mid-tier and higher).

If you're going to negate the stagger thing because skilled players can exploit RHA, then the increased risk of CQC also needs to be negated just as much since skilled players can get around that to a certain degree.

Not 'negating,' simply softening.  You can get around stagger by playing smart with both weapons.  The difference is that with PPR you don't need to be docked in cover, and in fact Revenant is worse with RHA than docked in cover (since it hits less frequently).

As for CQC, it is extremely important to keep in mind that PPR's range advantage means that you do not even need to bother with CQC, unlike with Revenant where it is imperative to close so you score a reasonable amount of hits.  And while I would agree with the sentiment that PPR is slightly more unwieldy in CQC compared with Revenant vs a single low tier enemy unit, I disagree that is much of a disadvantage in the grand scheme of things, where pretty much any character may have a power available to stagger the unit until PPR ramps.  As you add units or increase the enemy tier, the TTK for Revenant becomes outclassed and PPR will be superior in CQC.

Pointing out that certain classes currently do better with the PPR is meaningless to this discussion as it is about ramp up time vs inaccuracy and which one is a bigger weakness, not about which one is better between the Revenant or the PPR.

That is not what I pointed out whatsoever.  The point is that PPR's weaknesses are less meaningful across many more classes than Revenant's.  A point which is at the very heart of weapon balance and this argument about how important each strength or weakness is.  And in addition basically every kit that is decent with the Revenant is better with the PPR by a wide margin (with the exception of maybe Marksman kits).

Modifié par capn233, 24 juillet 2013 - 09:31 .