26 réponses à ce sujet

[ROBOTICSUPERMAN]

does power damage bonuses help the biotic/tech/fire/cryo explosion damage? no! this should be known by everyone here by now.

but is it still useful to put power damage bonuses on characters that rely solely on their detonations? maybe...

for this I shall show you with 2 human sentinel builds, as similarly as possible, while making one centred entirely to power damage, while the other centred to not needing power damage because "power damage doesn't increase biotic explosions"

build 1: POWER!
http://kalence.drupa...575!!..15!BF8B5

build 2: no power!
http://kalence.drupa...525!!..M5!5FEA5

build 1 and 2 do exactly the same biotic explosion damage, 2148 damage to health, and 4297 to armour.

however, when you include the power's damage themselves, and also include any debuff effects from the powers on the target, there is a difference;
build 1 will do 4636 against health
build 2 will do 4162 against health

build 1 will do 9545 against armour
build 2 will do 8479 against armour

now as you can see, there is quite a big difference in the armour damage, but it is entirely arguable that the weapon damage you gain from build 2 could make the difference up if you were both firing in between casting the powers, but considering animation times to cast, maybe not enough.

what is your opinion? will you be changing any builds? or do you feel its better the way you have it now?

[Tokenusername]

I'm sorry but, what is this trying to prove exactly?

[AlphaMaeko]

I only ignore power damage when it's fighting for placement with recharge speed. Otherwise, sure, I'll choose whatever's more effective against... stuff.

[ROBOTICSUPERMAN]

Tokenusername wrote...

I'm sorry but, what is this trying to prove exactly?

just that instant dismissal of power damage bonuses because you plan to detonate allot isn't necessarily the right answer.

[Moby]

Eh, damage is damage.

[Pinky-Slaying-SugarWalls]

people get butthurt to easly, i gotta love the comments LOL....

[RoZh2400]

ROBOTICSUPERMAN wrote...

Tokenusername wrote...

I'm sorry but, what is this trying to prove exactly?

just that instant dismissal of power damage bonuses because you plan to detonate allot isn't necessarily the right answer.

Your problem is that you invest in fitness to give up either assives or not. The correct way to play is to max detonation AND power damage and weapon damage. Screw fitness

[Evil]

ROBOTICSUPERMAN wrote...

does power damage bonuses help the biotic/tech/fire/cryo explosion damage? no! this should be known by everyone here by now.

but is it still useful to put power damage bonuses on characters that rely solely on their detonations? maybe...

for this I shall show you with 2 human sentinel builds, as similarly as possible, while making one centred entirely to power damage, while the other centred to not needing power damage because "power damage doesn't increase biotic explosions"

build 1: POWER!
http://kalence.drupa...575!!..15!BF8B5

build 2: no power!
http://kalence.drupa...525!!..M5!5FEA5

build 1 and 2 do exactly the same biotic explosion damage, 2148 damage to health, and 4297 to armour.

however, when you include the power's damage themselves, and also include any debuff effects from the powers on the target, there is a difference;
build 1 will do 4636 against health
build 2 will do 4162 against health

build 1 will do 9545 against armour
build 2 will do 8479 against armour

now as you can see, there is quite a big difference in the armour damage, but it is entirely arguable that the weapon damage you gain from build 2 could make the difference up if you were both firing in between casting the powers, but considering animation times to cast, maybe not enough.

what is your opinion? will you be changing any builds? or do you feel its better the way you have it now?

That second character build looks rather Familiar.
That extra damage from the power evolutions stacked up does add up to a respectable amount, quite a bit more than I would have expected, to tell the truth.
Converting physics force into damage taken isn't something that i've ever been able to do in my head.
Three things to point out, however.
First:  warp does a respectable portion of its damage as a dot if I understand correctly, which results in wasted damage, as gunfire and detonations will often kill the target before the dot has full done its work, so not all of that extra theoretical damage will actually be dealt in a real game.
Second: the first character build gets 30% of that extra damage as a result of equiping a smg power magnifier.
Nothing wrong with doing that, I would normaly regard that as a good idea, but the smg in question is a collectors smg X.
Unless the mag getts a lot bigger at X than it is on my puny CSMG I, actual weapon dps will suffer as a result in most players hands, due to the dificulty of avoiding overheating, and not being able to fire in such long bursts.
Third: sacrificing the radius evo on throw for force reduces the powers CC efectiveness, and can result in more missed detonations, which will waste more dps.
Still, theres certainly nothing wrong with ragdolling everything you meet smaller than a brute, and staggering primes is certainly entertaining.
Personal playstyle and preferences are an important factor that should never be overlooked.
Fun>>>>>Theorycrafted "perfect" character builds.
If you are playing and succeeding with a BSN dis-approved build, then more power to you!
Time to test out that BF3 soldier with adas.

[Moby]

RoZh2400 wrote...

 The correct way to play is to max detonation AND power damage and weapon damage. Screw fitness

The correct way to play is Kocka builds.  0/0/0/0/0

[Kocka007]

MofuggerX wrote...

RoZh2400 wrote...

 The correct way to play is to max detonation AND power damage and weapon damage. Screw fitness

The correct way to play is Kocka builds.  0/0/0/0/0

QFT

[Malanek]

Evil Mastered wrote...

Second: the first character build gets 30% of that extra damage as a result of equiping a smg power magnifier.
Nothing wrong with doing that, I would normaly regard that as a good idea, but the smg in question is a collectors smg X.
Unless the mag getts a lot bigger at X than it is on my puny CSMG I, actual weapon dps will suffer as a result in most players hands, due to the dificulty of avoiding overheating, and not being able to fire in such long bursts.

Yeah, I don't think you would ever use the csmg and not run extended magazine. Even at level X it is the mandatory mod and then you pick what else you want.

[AaronEh]

ROBOTICSUPERMAN wrote...

does power damage bonuses help the biotic/tech/fire/cryo explosion damage? no! this should be known by everyone here by now.

but is it still useful to put power damage bonuses on characters that rely solely on their detonations? maybe...

for this I shall show you with 2 human sentinel builds, as similarly as possible, while making one centred entirely to power damage, while the other centred to not needing power damage because "power damage doesn't increase biotic explosions"

build 1: POWER!
http://kalence.drupa...575!!..15!BF8B5

build 2: no power!
http://kalence.drupa...525!!..M5!5FEA5

build 1 and 2 do exactly the same biotic explosion damage, 2148 damage to health, and 4297 to armour.

however, when you include the power's damage themselves, and also include any debuff effects from the powers on the target, there is a difference;
build 1 will do 4636 against health
build 2 will do 4162 against health

build 1 will do 9545 against armour
build 2 will do 8479 against armour

now as you can see, there is quite a big difference in the armour damage, but it is entirely arguable that the weapon damage you gain from build 2 could make the difference up if you were both firing in between casting the powers, but considering animation times to cast, maybe not enough.

what is your opinion? will you be changing any builds? or do you feel its better the way you have it now?

Can you show your math?  Your rolled up damage numbers seem way off.

[Qui-Gon Glenn]

"Screw fitness" will hose you in too many situations. I personally dont like to quit a lobby unless the conditions are literally unplayable, which means sometimes shield gate performs strangely, shield restorr can behave strangely, and powers dont always work the first time.

Add this to the fact that I carry 85% of the Gold matches I play, and that means taking a flimsy kit with no fitness into a laggy lobby means certain doom for the whole team.

3 ranks in fitness saves you many times in this situation. Either you only host, are not as good as you think you are, or compulsively lie.

[ROBOTICSUPERMAN]

AaronEh wrote...

ROBOTICSUPERMAN wrote...

Can you show your math?  Your rolled up damage numbers seem way off.

actually... No. I'm at work<_<, I can show it in 7 hours. 
What bit seems way off? 

[ROBOTICSUPERMAN]

this is my detonation damage calculation

((100+(250-100)/10*(total_combo_level - 2))* difficulty_modifier * power1_combo_level * power2_combo_level)+(100+(250-100)/10*(total_combo_level - 2))

just realised that this is calculation copies itself, cant remember if it was or wasn't supposed to do that?


and this is my total combo damage

(power1_damage + power2_damage + detonation_damage) * total_debuff

[capn233]

Qui-Gon Glenn wrote...

"Screw fitness" will hose you in too many situations. I personally dont like to quit a lobby unless the conditions are literally unplayable, which means sometimes shield gate performs strangely, shield restorr can behave strangely, and powers dont always work the first time.

Yeah, it works well if you host.  Off host it depends partly on connection to host and which character we are talking about.

[NuclearTech76]

Speccing blindly into power damage is one of the common screw ups that people make unless you have a high DPS power (Smash, Cain Mines, Flamer) or a power with specific modifier versus defenses (Concussive Shot on chilled organics) you're usually always better off either ignoring passive or speccing weapon damage. Factor in Collectors which bone powers even more with swarms and protective bubbles and the scale slides even more in the favor of weapons damage. Projectile powers missing due to enemy dodging or just going through the enemy off host and even more it slides into the favor of weapons. Gear is almost always better when chosen for weapons damage as well.

[flibber89-2]

NuclearTech76 wrote...

Speccing blindly into power damage is one of the common screw ups that people make unless you have a high DPS power (Smash, Cain Mines, Flamer) or a power with specific modifier versus defenses (Concussive Shot on chilled organics) you're usually always better off either ignoring passive or speccing weapon damage. Factor in Collectors which bone powers even more with swarms and protective bubbles and the scale slides even more in the favor of weapons damage. Projectile powers missing due to enemy dodging or just going through the enemy off host and even more it slides into the favor of weapons. Gear is almost always better when chosen for weapons damage as well.

I don't know if people are blindly speccing into power damage/force damage.. it's all situational perhaps you need that extra force to stagger phantoms with the power etc etc it all depends on a persons playstyle and what they're trying to do with that character in that match.. more and more i'm willing to not spec into the extra 7.5% or 10% percent weapons damage or going away from weapons damage gear to perhaps shields or geth scanner or power damage passives because you just don't miss it on certain characters with certain guns.  

[Deerber]

ROBOTICSUPERMAN wrote...

now as you can see, there is quite a big difference in the armour damage, but it is entirely arguable that the weapon damage you gain from build 2 could make the difference up if you were both firing in between casting the powers, but considering animation times to cast, maybe not enough.

This is the key point. Weapon damage WILL make up for the lost power damage. It will actually exceed it by quite a lot.

The only reasons why I ever spec into power damage is if:

a) I really, really need the 20% weight reduction. Almost never happens

of

if I have a power that deals a significant amount of damage by itself. Usually that means a (good) grenade power, but there are others too (PD, nova...).

[Evil]

NuclearTech76 wrote...

blindly 

Flibber89-2, this word in NuclearTech76's sentence was IMPORTANT.
It means that players often unintentionally gimped themselves by chosing to spend points on power damage boosts without stopping to think about how much they are getting in return for those points, simply trusting that more power damage on a caster is always good.
I know that some people do this because I am guilty of doing this for my first few hundred hours.
Biowares ingame tooltips do a VERY poor job of explaning things such as detonation mechanics and stagger/ragdoll force thresholds.
Deliberatly choosing power evos specificly for cooldown speed improvement or extra force is most definitely not the same as taking those evos out of blind faith.
I deliberatly sacrifice headshot damage on my Batguard, so that I can take the radius evo on charge, whilst still having 1000N of force to stagger the enemys I hit.
As flibber89-2 correctly states, it's all situational.
An informed decision will almost always be a good one for the person making it, regardless of the opinion of others.
An uninformed decision will almost always be a bad one for the person making it, regardless of the opinion of others.
There is no knowledge that is not power.

[ROBOTICSUPERMAN]

Deerber wrote...

ROBOTICSUPERMAN wrote...

now as you can see, there is quite a big difference in the armour damage, but it is entirely arguable that the weapon damage you gain from build 2 could make the difference up if you were both firing in between casting the powers, but considering animation times to cast, maybe not enough.

This is the key point. Weapon damage WILL make up for the lost power damage. It will actually exceed it by quite a lot.

there is just under 2.84 seconds of cooldown time in build 2, compared to 2.91 of build 1 so less time shooting(even if it is only a fraction of a second) so you will fire less bullets but would have an extra 17.5% weapon damage increase.

bearing in mind that just the 17.5% increase to weapon damage(ignoring the rest of the weapon damage as this would be the same for both builds) has got to do over 1000 damage against armour in under 3 seconds to make the trade off of the power damage for weapon damage worth while.

maybe the reegar or hurricane or harrier may have the potential to be worth the weapon damage path, but im unsure, so.. to maths.

but using hurricane x with HVB and extended mag
build 1 will fire 58 bullets, doing 4582 damage to armour, with body shots. or 10730 if they were all headshots.
build 2 will fire 56 bullets, doing 5656 damage to armour, with body shots. or 15064 if they were all headshots.

so if you use the hurricane it would be worth it, and very worth it, if you can hit headshots that well with the hurricane. but I couldn't say that I could even score body shots reliably at 5m, so if your enemy is further away, then power damage would probably do more damage in total.

in the end its all much of a muchness and each to their own, but power damage bonuses are far from pointless in any aspect.

[NYG1991]

I spec into power damage at rank five of the passive. That way I kinda get the best of both. I suck at headshots anyway.

[NuclearTech76]

flibber89-2 wrote...

NuclearTech76 wrote...

Speccing blindly into power damage is one of the common screw ups that people make unless you have a high DPS power (Smash, Cain Mines, Flamer) or a power with specific modifier versus defenses (Concussive Shot on chilled organics) you're usually always better off either ignoring passive or speccing weapon damage. Factor in Collectors which bone powers even more with swarms and protective bubbles and the scale slides even more in the favor of weapons damage. Projectile powers missing due to enemy dodging or just going through the enemy off host and even more it slides into the favor of weapons. Gear is almost always better when chosen for weapons damage as well.

I don't know if people are blindly speccing into power damage/force damage.. it's all situational perhaps you need that extra force to stagger phantoms with the power etc etc it all depends on a persons playstyle and what they're trying to do with that character in that match.. more and more i'm willing to not spec into the extra 7.5% or 10% percent weapons damage or going away from weapons damage gear to perhaps shields or geth scanner or power damage passives because you just don't miss it on certain characters with certain guns.  

 
Force threshold is an exception but then again on a lot of kits that are close to a force threshold to stagger a specific enemy type you already have an option there. For instance on a kit with Stasis, warp and throw the force threshold for throw isn't that important because you already have stasis for dealing with some troublesome enemies most notably phantoms. 

Most BSNers know but you'll still get the occassional ones which give builds with powers like warp, singularity, shockwave that advise you to spec into passive power damage. Additive damage is pretty minimal.

[Deerber]

ROBOTICSUPERMAN wrote...

Deerber wrote...

ROBOTICSUPERMAN wrote...

now as you can see, there is quite a big difference in the armour damage, but it is entirely arguable that the weapon damage you gain from build 2 could make the difference up if you were both firing in between casting the powers, but considering animation times to cast, maybe not enough.

This is the key point. Weapon damage WILL make up for the lost power damage. It will actually exceed it by quite a lot.

there is just under 2.84 seconds of cooldown time in build 2, compared to 2.91 of build 1 so less time shooting(even if it is only a fraction of a second) so you will fire less bullets but would have an extra 17.5% weapon damage increase.

bearing in mind that just the 17.5% increase to weapon damage(ignoring the rest of the weapon damage as this would be the same for both builds) has got to do over 1000 damage against armour in under 3 seconds to make the trade off of the power damage for weapon damage worth while.

maybe the reegar or hurricane or harrier may have the potential to be worth the weapon damage path, but im unsure, so.. to maths.

but using hurricane x with HVB and extended mag
build 1 will fire 58 bullets, doing 4582 damage to armour, with body shots. or 10730 if they were all headshots.
build 2 will fire 56 bullets, doing 5656 damage to armour, with body shots. or 15064 if they were all headshots.

so if you use the hurricane it would be worth it, and very worth it, if you can hit headshots that well with the hurricane. but I couldn't say that I could even score body shots reliably at 5m, so if your enemy is further away, then power damage would probably do more damage in total.

in the end its all much of a muchness and each to their own, but power damage bonuses are far from pointless in any aspect.

By experience, I can tell you that the weapon damage gain outweights the power damage gain on any kit apart those I mentioned before, and if you use any kind of good weapon (there are quite a few) 

[MGW7]

Noobs who lack dps weapons are probably better investing in power damage then veterans who have the damage capacity to out do powers,
I doubt an avenger is superior to the power damage,