19 réponses à ce sujet

[Morbane]

I just dropped by the DA:O forums and found that the activity there is almost nil - 1 month being the average last post for each subforum. Someone just released a module, but aside from that - man, for all the momentum the DA toolset had - NWN1&2 building hss much more vital lifesigns.

IMHO NWN2 has always been a more versatile building world - but DA:O was so strong a while back. I wonder what happened - oh maybe DA2?

Sarcasm aside, I'm glad I didnt invest boatloads of time into DA toolset - none really, but it just kind of sparks this odd glint of happiness to know the NWN building woulds are kicking strong.

[-Semper-]

da2 split the community into two, and while there's still some modding done for da:o the release of the third game will eventually wash away the last remnants.

ultimately there were many issue with da:o's toolset and the whole workflow. you needed to bake the lights, which could last for hours - and thanks to the bugged lightmapper you had to spend further time in post-processing if you wanted good looking environments without those butt ugly black spots everywhere. there are hardcoded character and choice limitations within the dialogues. the model variation, especially for monsters, is very slim and there's no size scaling available. without voice over and complex cinematography your dialogues look plain and boring. the core ruleset and character development ain't that interesting either and adds nothing to the replayability.

it was the sum of all the little things which almost wiped out the whole community.

[MasterChanger]

It's a shame. I really do like the gameplay and the camera styles (as I've been saying), and the animations are just so much smoother than NWN2. But I can't imagine trying to populate an entire world with creature models available in DA:O (like I was able to do with NWN2).

I also do wonder about the role of the studio. While no one likes unpolished, buggy games (the disappointing release of NWN2 is still remembered) I wonder if BioWare being so dominant discouraged the DA:O community from solving some of its own problems and telling more of its own stories. I've always thought that an active community and an engaged studio go hand-in-hand. Still, I wonder about whether all of BioWare's super-slick marketing of their stories crowded out some of the other stuff.

I'd be curious to hear from some content authors who've given it a real go in both communities (like maybe someone like Challseus).

[-Semper-]

MasterChanger wrote...

I wonder if BioWare being so dominant discouraged the DA:O community from [...] telling more of its own stories.

imo with the available assets it's difficult to tell stories in other settings besides the dragon age universe. even with creative usage it always felt like a hampered dragon age. the whole setting is also relatively new and there's not much content to draw inspiration from, compared to the story rich forgotten realms and the different prime material planes.

what i did like was the easy integration of custom modules into the vanilla content, basically what bioware did with the dlc. this way you could create single quests without the need to develope a stand-alone campaign. that's also possible with nwn2, but there you have to "hack" your way into the official content.
also the .2da file system was way more robust. you could create separate .2da files with just they lines your mod needed and they were merged with the master-.2da in run time. the integration of custom level props were easy too. just place your models in the content folder without fiddling around with other files. and while we're at it the level building process (props placement) was also very easy and artist friendly. though it lacked a scaling option the free rotation in all three axes brought a nice creative freedom.

[painofdungeoneternal]

-Semper- wrote...
also the .2da file system was way more robust. you could create separate .2da files with just they lines your mod needed and they were merged with the master-.2da in run time.

This is something i am building into never launcher, it actually creates the separate source files from your current 2da, but then can make a diff upd file which can be merged later just like dragon age. I am setting this up so it works with the vault, aiming at all those OLD modules so I can migrate them to the current version.

[Tchos]

-Semper- wrote...
ultimately there were many issue with da:o's toolset and the whole workflow. you needed to bake the lights, which could last for hours - and thanks to the bugged lightmapper you had to spend further time in post-processing if you wanted good looking environments without those butt ugly black spots everywhere. there are hardcoded character and choice limitations within the dialogues. the model variation, especially for monsters, is very slim and there's no size scaling available. without voice over and complex cinematography your dialogues look plain and boring. the core ruleset and character development ain't that interesting either and adds nothing to the replayability.

I agree with everything Semper says here.  DA:O was where I modded before I played or modded either of the NWN games.  The light baking was terrible, horrible, a nightmare.  I'll take the horrors of complex walkmesh baking in NWN2 any day of the week.  DA:O's collection of assets (creatures, placeables, etc.) was a fraction of NWN2's, even without custom content.  I saw some good work done in that toolset (much better than my own freshman offering), but I don't expect to return to it now that I've had plenty of time to experience NWN2.  My experience with this toolset (and the modules that have been made with it) is a much better experience than it was with DA:O.

My regret with the affair, which I learned after the fact, is that a lot of great, innovative and prolific NWN2 modders were enticed to the DA:O toolset, and were never heard from again.

[Morbane]

noting that the variety of assets in NWN is vast in comparison to DA - hasnt anyone tried to make a DA creature hak for NWN2?

The demons would be so cool!?

[MokahTGS]

Tchos wrote...

My regret with the affair, which I learned after the fact, is that a lot of great, innovative and prolific NWN2 modders were enticed to the DA:O toolset, and were never heard from again.

This was what stalled NWN2 modding for a large part.  Many of the VERY talented modders jumped ship, and just vanished.  I even dipped my claws into the DA:O toolset but found it massively lacking on many fronts.  It's sad because as a game, I like DA:O's engine much better.

EA isn't and never has been interested in a modding community and the handling of the DA IP is evidence of that.

Modifié par MokahTGS, 26 juillet 2013 - 02:49 .

[Tchos]

MokahTGS wrote...

Tchos wrote...
and never were heard from again.

This was what stalled NWN2 modding for a large part.  Many of the VERY talented modders jumped ship, and just vanished.  I even dipped my claws into the DA:O toolset but found it massively lacking on many fronts.  It's sad because as a game, I like DA:O's engine much better.

It's almost as if the snark was a boojum, don't you think? 

It's true that the DA:O engine runs much more smoothly, though I believe that advantage came at the cost of dynamic lighting, and requiring the horrible light baking process that caused me so much pain.

[nicethugbert]

All I could do in the NWN toolset was import L3DT files. Yet, there is nothing else out there that I know of that lets me do more. I guess toolsets are in a sad state? How about cdprojekt's redkit or the NWO Foundry? Are they any good?

[kamal_]

nicethugbert wrote...
the NWO Foundry? Are they any good?

Foundry is a mission editor. There are three quests, kill x, click x, go to x. Even basic functionality such as picking random number involves building a rube goldberg contraption on the map. I made four quests in Foundry with my Foundry beta access, you can ready about it in the Neverwinter Online thread.

A lot of popular and highly rated (even "featured") Foundry authors have pulled thier quests because things are such a mess over there.

/begin cool story bro
I was permabanned by their community mods last week. :happy:
/end cool story bro

Modifié par kamal_, 28 juillet 2013 - 01:20 .

[kevL]

( a guy just hasn't lived until he's gotten himself banned from a few sites

/fete

[Morbane]

kamal_ wrote...

/begin cool story bro
I was permabanned by their community mods last week. :happy:
/end cool story bro

The only way to be banned from such a prolific and intelligent ....


nevermind 

[-Semper-]

nicethugbert wrote...

How about cdprojekt's redkit or the NWO Foundry? Are they any good?

based on kamal's and other impressions i never installed nwo to fiddle around with the foundry. the witcher's toolset is similar to other sdks out there, especially to the udk. there's nothing big missing, except for a 3dsmax plugin to create animated stuff - there was word that such a plugin is in the works though.

shadowrun's editor is easy as hell but it's nothing more than a mission editor lacking depth. you can't create new equipment, alter ai scripts or implement new models. you've to live with the few enemies and items available to tell your story. the level building is intuitive and you can integrate your own props to spice up the areas or create completely new ones. however the charactery development ain't that complex and the only thing to ramp up the difficulty of a fight is to outnumber the player. the enemy's ai is simply horrible... btw it's still a nice little crpg light to kill some time

i'm curious about wasteland 2 and its editor.

edit: rudimentary ai control through triggers and script logic is in. basically you can control the threat list, item/skill weighting and even hook into round. yeah! now it's time to play around with some of those controls^^

Modifié par -Semper-, 28 juillet 2013 - 08:59 .

[Tchos]

-Semper- wrote...

shadowrun's editor is easy as hell but it's nothing more than a mission editor lacking depth. you can't create new equipment, alter ai scripts or implement new models.

Is it true what I heard, that there is no inventory or loot in Shadowrun Returns?

[kamal_]

Tchos wrote...

-Semper- wrote...

shadowrun's editor is easy as hell but it's nothing more than a mission editor lacking depth. you can't create new equipment, alter ai scripts or implement new models.

Is it true what I heard, that there is no inventory or loot in Shadowrun Returns?

You have infinite ammo but have to reload (which takes action points in combat). There is a bit of "gold piece" type loot, but enemies don't drop weapons or armor. Enemies can drop plot items, so there's probably no prohibition in the toolset on them dropping loot. No missions are especially long, the focus is on fewer more powerful enemies rather than sending hordes at you, though it's not Shadow of the Colossus where everything is a boss. Anyway, foraging is not really a concern. You are paid for missions and you buy gear from vendors at your home base.

It's not especailly long official campaign, but it doesn't suffer from the dragging out that some games do. I thoroughly enjoyed Shadowrun as is, money well spent. There were a few minor bugs, mostly with combat not ending when you'd cleared all enemies from the map, forcing you to have to combat move your group to the map exit, and the UI took some getting used to.

[-Semper-]

Tchos wrote...

Is it true what I heard, that there is no inventory or loot in Shadowrun Returns?

in addition to what kamal said there's personal inventory space (6 slots) and a stash (unlimited) which can only be accessed while in your safehouse. there you can swap out items and buy new ones to prepare for the next shadowrun. if you find items during such a run (mostly medkits and grenades) you can decide to send them to the stash or swap it with an item in your inventory. there's no real loot but that also fits the setting. shadowrunners are hired professionals to do the dirty work. they don't run around looting corpses or swapping gear :innocent:

hiring different shadowrunners works in a similar way. you talk to a fixer (contact to other runners) and pay the price. after the run is complete they're gone. those runners are pre-defined, though you can create different templates in the editor and save them as roster entries, but you can control them in fights. sometimes there are also forced runners thrown into your party (up to 4 members).

though the first campaign is very linear and short of sidequests the game itself is worth the price. the second campaign will be much less linear.

Modifié par -Semper-, 28 juillet 2013 - 03:11 .

[Tchos]

The lack of inventory may not be as bad as it sounded, then. I do wonder if it would be suited to different types of campaigns, such as where you're a corporate type working for a corporation rather than a decker or street samurai.

[MokahTGS]

As far as toolsets, I've been keeping an eye on the Divinity: Original Sin game as it develops.  It's a 3D Isometric game with turn based combat and a full toolset.  It will offer 4 player co-op play but no true multiplayer like NWN.

IMO, it seems to be the best bet for in-coming toolset based games.

[nicethugbert]

kamal_ wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...
the NWO Foundry? Are they any good?

Foundry is a mission editor. There are three quests, kill x, click x, go to x. Even basic functionality such as picking random number involves building a rube goldberg contraption on the map. I made four quests in Foundry with my Foundry beta access, you can ready about it in the Neverwinter Online thread.

A lot of popular and highly rated (even "featured") Foundry authors have pulled thier quests because things are such a mess over there.

/begin cool story bro
I was permabanned by their community mods last week. :happy:
/end cool story bro

I'm tempted to go over there and get banned now.  I didn't bother to log in and do my AD and professions chores today.  NWO has turned out to be a great disappointment.  Slow run speed so that they can charge money for mounts, such stupidity.  Stupid fanboys telling me it's a good deal to pay $60 for a mount and companion and some other trash because I can share it with all my characters.  They just don't under the concept of one flat rate for an entire game as opposed to full price per bi-monthly installment even when Skyrim was on sale for $35 for the entire game plus expansions and no stupid character and gear restrictions.  Even now, Skyrim is $60 for the entire game, expansions and all, and stupid fanboys don't get it.  Disclaimer, I'm not a Skyrim fan, don't own it.  But, I know a better deal when I see one standing next to a ****ty deal.

I'm playing Warframe now, so you can imagine what I consider slow.  Mass Effect 3 MP is a clunker.  BF3, clunker.  DAI is probably going to suck too.  EAware wil find a way to make it suck.  That's their specialty.  Take a promising idea, with good audio and visual, and make it clunk.  I'm looking forward to TW3, Cyberpunk 2077, and Sui Generis.

But, anyway, back to topic.  Having those three quest types doesn't seem like the worst of it.  What I suspected is that PWE, being the lazy grubber that they are, wouldn't have a dialog system at least half as good as NWN2's dialog system.  Which means no PoE in NWO.

One of the barriers to my usage of toolkits, besides my lack of talent, is the lack of batch processing: searching, sorting, copying, modifing.  Everything takes forever to find, organized, and modify in the toolset.  Don't know of any sdk, toolset, etc. that has solved that problem.