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simple Day One DLC request


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#376
NRieh

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NWN was a poor replacement for BG2, mainly because most of the development was packed into the toolset and the campaign felt like an afterthought.

...probably, because NWN was mainly targeted on pen-n-paper DnD players, offering them exactly same experience, but only in 3d?.. No, really, it's so funny that some people still believe that NWN was actually 'a campaign', not a complex multi-player RPG engine with real-time GM-player interface, built-in toolset and widest possibilities. It's like believing that the only possible purpose of 'lego' is building that thing from a pic on the box. 'Oh, you lego is crap, that house is so dull, boring and ugly...'

As for day1DLC.
To me anything that is not in release (avalible for each and every customer) is optional. As long as it neither affects nor contradicts the major story - I'm fine with that.

Making a companion-DLCs is a bad idea in general, imo. Because it makes me wonder, why is that companion not a part of main content, actually?

If he can be ignored (does not give combat advantages and does not change the story in any way, has independant personal piece of lore) - why should I even bother to pay for him?

If he is vital to understand the main story and fixes the lack of melee(ranged, magic, tech) units in party - why was he removed then, who decided I need to pay extra for fixing broken party balance and filling plot holes?

Javik, for example, is the only possible biotic for non-biotic Shep, that sacrificed Alenko ( there is also a huge part of game where Kaidan is not avalible, even if survived Virmire) . Other that Liara I mean (Of course, ME team was always glad to offer Liara to any Shep, any time).

Imo, such DLCs look poor no matter if they were 'day one' or not. All sorts of unique custom cosmetic stuff fits pre-orders much better, imo. Paying for armor sets, gear, pets looks much more honest to me.

#377
Fast Jimmy

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Conversely, you could just go crazy and do something truly insane. Say, have paid D1DLC, but where the proceeds go towards a particular goal.

I mean, imagine the interest you'd see if Bioware came out and said "if we sell 1 million units of DLC within the first week, we will use that money solely to make a toolkit, to be released within six months."

I can imagine that would create quite a stir.

#378
Allan Schumacher

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As I said in an earlier post, many people perceive Paid D1DLC to be a greedy cash grab. The reality of that is not important. Because that person will believe it. They will complain about it - to the company, but also to their friends and peers (which is infinitely more damaging). And it will require the parent company to address those concerns as if they are actually greedy and needing to defend themselves, while also losing sales/revenue because of it.


Many people perceive it as okay, and some have even said 'Keep doing it.'

There's also the perception from our end. "People say they don't like it, yet they keep buying it.... How much confidence is there that this behaviour may change?"

As a PC Gamer, there was a LOT of resistance to PC games (especially AAA ones) moving to $60, and I remember a lot of outrage at a comment Bobby Kotick made about how he'd like to sell all PC games at $60. And here we are at a state where PC games typically retail for $60, and there's not nearly as much of a peep about it now. Reference

So on some level, is the level of outrage for Day One DLC something that is typical of most price increases, and that overtime the consumer base may be more accepting?



Off topic but, do you have a reference for this claim:

This brings to mind an off-topic thought about the Soviet Space program in the 60's and 70's. the program itself was plagued by cost, engineering and logistical problems, but the Soviet government kept the entire program itself under incredibly tight informational wraps, that nothing was leaked until the event was at full fruition. Soviet citizens would suddenly, out of nowhere, hear that Sputnik was launched or they had put a man into orbit, giving the appearance of the innovations simply popping up out of the ground due to the Soviet government's brilliant initiative, when, in reality, the program suffered from many delays, setbacks and failures that its people (and the world) were simply completely not aware of.

This seemingly infallible Soviet space program, however, spurned the U.S. to take very aggressive action with its own Space Program, seeing them being left in the dust by the supernatural success and speed of the Soviets. Again... the reality was not important for the vast majority of people, as everyone except a select few were operating under the same assumption. When that happens, logic and empiricism often take a backseat to perception.


I'm not able to find any information about costs of the Soviet Space Program, but was able to find that both the US and Soviet Union announced (with 4 days of each other) that they planned to put satellites in space, and that the US simply lost and didn't like that the Soviet Union (after initial hesitation) was using it as propaganda. I was also able to find information that the American's announcing their intent allowed Korolyov to convince Khrushchev that they should attempt to beat the Americans into space.

I'm unaware of how tightly "under wraps" either space program was both to each other as well as to their own nations, as well as any interpretations that the Americans felt the Soviet space program was "infallible" or simply that they lost (since they had announced their intentions first).

#379
AlanC9

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

If you guys start worrying about the "optics," don't you end up with some pretty ludicrous incentives? Such as sending the DLC team on vacation before the release date so you don't accidentally have the first DLC go gold too early?


I'll admit I'm not entirely sure where this is going. My initial reaction was "he's making a silly post" but I didn't want to make a flippant remark in return because I'm not confident I read this correctly...


Flippant, aye.

My point was that if The Stone Prisoner has good optics and From Ashes does not, and the better optics make up for the lost immediate sales....... then don't you have an incentive to hold the first DLC for a couple of weeks even if it's ready?

Obviously, in practice you'd get the same results by cancelling a bunch of overtime or some such.

Modifié par AlanC9, 01 août 2013 - 07:40 .


#380
AlanC9

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Nrieh wrote...

...probably, because NWN was mainly targeted on pen-n-paper DnD players, offering them exactly same experience, but only in 3d?.. No, really, it's so funny that some people still believe that NWN was actually 'a campaign', not a complex multi-player RPG engine with real-time GM-player interface, built-in toolset and widest possibilities. 


Well, that's the thing. Some folks wanted BG3. They didn't get BG3. Telling them that NWN wasn't ever supposed to be BG3 didn't help.

#381
Allan Schumacher

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

My only point out here would be that other developers have released DLC in Week 2/3 and have seen negligible amount of flak for if, at least in comparison to the Day One content (an example could be Borderlands 2). Obviously, anyone familiar with the industry conversation would say "well, they clearly were working on the DLC during production and could have easily ramped up to have it released on Day One... that won't fool anyone." But, apparently, it does.


Speculation.  You don't know this.  It may just as well only be seen as palatable because the alternative is more ostensible "milking."  Consumers (video games or otherwise) never have a shortage of hypotheticals that they can throw out, and it's entirely possible that Borderlands 2 is seen as acceptable because people can say "At least it's not the Day One stuff like EA does."  Would it have still been as much of a non-issue if there wasn't a worse example to compare with?

Are fans going to be understanding if they still find assets embedded into the base disc, even with week 2/3 DLC?  Or is the issue that we should really just spend more effort

But again, for the 400,000-500,000 who bought the From Ashes DLC on Day One, revenue in the amount of $4-5 million was gained. While nothing to sneeze at, that is a drop in the bucket of the full sales revenue (barely over 1% for ME3's book of business). Is 1% worth a PR disaster? Even with 100% margins, I can't imagine it being so.


How much was sold on Day 2?  On Day 3?  How much do we make per unit sale of the retail box?  How many preorders were made because it could get you the DLC?  All for an unquantifiable cost of what the "PR disaster" actually costs.  The economics are not as simple as you paint it out to be.

I understand that you don't know until you try, as well, but I would think that market research might be done beforehand to see how things like the perception of on-disc content that ties directly into the Day One DLC might cause consumer negativity, but I don't want to assume anything about internal policy making or research on the behalf of Bioware/EA (not sure if that would be more of a corporate function or they prefer/allow individual developers to collect and analyze their own data).


Just keep in mind that market research told us we should use the dialogue wheel for DA2.  How much should we rely on market research, in your opinion?

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 01 août 2013 - 07:45 .


#382
Allan Schumacher

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AlanC9 wrote...

My point was that if The Stone Prisoner has good optics and From Ashes does not, and the better optics make up for the lost immediate sales....... then don't you have an incentive to hold the first DLC for a couple of weeks even if it's ready?


Could be, yes.  It might even be superior to do it that way.  I'm simply sharing what I, as a gamer, prefer.  In large part because for most games it's not uncommon for me to be onto something else by week 2/3.


Well, that's the thing. Some folks wanted BG3. They didn't get BG3.
Telling them that NWN wasn't ever supposed to be BG3 didn't help.


This is an interesting point, because at some point I think we have to acknowledge that some people just have expectations that don't align, and there's probably not much we can do about that.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 01 août 2013 - 07:45 .


#383
devSin

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

How much was sold on Day 2?  On Day 3?  How much do we make per unit sale of the retail box?  How many preorders were made because it could get you the DLC?  All for an unquantifiable cost of what the "PR disaster" actually costs.  The economics are not as simple as you paint it out to be.

Pre-orders could not "get you the DLC" (unless you got the collector's edition; what a mistake that turned out to be). From Ashes was not first-sale DLC.

To be honest, I'm a bit surprised Sebastian doesn't get brought up more often (I think it's a credit to just how poorly DA2 was received; nobody even cares?). I think he exists entirely on the disc (his download is something like 30MB total, or maybe even less).

Allan Schumacher wrote...

This is an interesting point, because at some point I think we have to acknowledge that some people just have expectations that don't align, and there's probably not much we can do about that.

You're not seriously trying to defend NWN, are you?

That thing was an engine looking for an excuse of a game, and people rightly called it out for that. That campaign was total, undeniable weaksauce.

Yes, it was a marvelous platform and a great way to bring some of the experience of tabletop roleplaying to the computer, but it wasn't all that good a game, at least initially.

Modifié par devSin, 01 août 2013 - 07:51 .


#384
Allan Schumacher

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Pre-orders could not "get you the DLC" (unless you got the collector's edition; what a mistake that turned out to be). From Ashes was not first-sale DLC.

To be honest, I'm a bit surprised Sebastian doesn't get brought up more often (I think it's a credit to just how poorly DA2 was received; nobody even cares?). I think he exists entirely on the disc (his download is something like 30MB total, or maybe even less).


I apologize. Collectors Editions.


You're not seriously trying to defend NWN, are you?


No. I'm saying that the people that were upset because it wasn't BG3 may have just been expecting something that NWN was never intended to be. Heck, had BioWare actually made BG3, I wouldn't be surprised if some would have still had unreasonable expectations for it.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 01 août 2013 - 07:55 .


#385
devSin

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

No. I'm saying that the people that were upset because it wasn't BG3 may have just been expecting something that NWN was never intended to be. Heck, had BioWare actually made BG3, I wouldn't be surprised if some would have still had unreasonable expectations for it.

Sorry, I couldn't pass up the opportunity to talk trash about NWN. Sometimes, you just have to get it out, even after all these years. :-)

Day 1 DLC doesn't necessarily improve my opinion of you, even though I'm not militant about it like some others (I thought Sebastian was good, and Javik was great, though soured by the whole experience of the rest of that nonsense). There's obviously a point where I couldn't support it even for DA, but I'm not opposed simply because some of the resources are on the disc (or because effort was spent on it before the game was released); I just think it's crummy to start piling on added cost (but like you say, it works, so what else are you supposed to do), and we're getting close to a value that I wouldn't be able to justify.

Modifié par devSin, 01 août 2013 - 08:12 .


#386
Allan Schumacher

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What I would like to see is the game being sold for $70 straight up, with Javik's content, and to have seen the reaction there.

#387
Firky

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:P My reaction, as an Aussie, would have been, "Woohoo."

#388
Allan Schumacher

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Yes but for some (completely baffling to me) reason, you all get the shaft :(

#389
Firky

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It's baffling to us, too.

#390
devSin

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

What I would like to see is the game being sold for $70 straight up, with Javik's content, and to have seen the reaction there.

To what end? I'm not sure how raising the price of the game is really relevant to this argument.

Either Javik's part of the game or he's not. Unless you're suggesting that he alone is worth some 15% the overall cost.

Modifié par devSin, 01 août 2013 - 08:22 .


#391
Allan Schumacher

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devSin wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

What I would like to see is the game being sold for $70 straight up, with Javik's content, and to have seen the reaction there.

To what end? I'm not sure how raising the price of the game is really relevant to this argument.

Either Javik's part of the game or he's not. Unless you're suggesting that he alone is worth some 15% the overall cost.



Because I'm curious if people react differently if it's $60 +$10 compared to just straight up selling the game "complete" but for $70.

#392
devSin

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I don't think there's any way to make a fair comparison. The reality of the content is also part of the discussion (it's not part of the game; it's post-release content); simply obfuscating that doesn't really seem like it would give any useful information. And if it wasn't post-release content (and is just ready to be part of the game), then why is the price of the game really being increased?

To be truthful, I don't think there's much relevance in my opinion on the subject anyway. Day 1 DLC is not designed for me; BioWare would have just as easy a time selling it to me on Day 100 as on Day 1, so my perspective is largely irrelevant. I tolerate it, and it's not as if they've handled it too poorly or made the cost too unreasonable so far (though $15 may really be too much, if Mark doesn't bundle it with the collector's edition, which is the version I'll hopefully be picking up), but I'd just as soon rather have the team worry about working on expansive post-release content instead of something that absolutely positively must be ready to ship by printing time and/or on release day (and I also don't like that they exploit packaging and pre-release QA testing, modifying the campaign in ways they wouldn't normally do post-release).

Modifié par devSin, 01 août 2013 - 08:38 .


#393
nightcobra

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

devSin wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

What I would like to see is the game being sold for $70 straight up, with Javik's content, and to have seen the reaction there.

To what end? I'm not sure how raising the price of the game is really relevant to this argument.

Either Javik's part of the game or he's not. Unless you're suggesting that he alone is worth some 15% the overall cost.



Because I'm curious if people react differently if it's $60 +$10 compared to just straight up selling the game "complete" but for $70.


My own perspective on this issue is that it's more about timing of the DLC's release versus the DLC's content than anything else.

Day one DLC with with more weapons, armours or even some decorations (aesthetic fluff if you will) for some reason make me feel i'm not missing that much content on launch while a fully done character (even if not integral to the plot) makes me feel that i'd be missing something on the game at launch. had this DLC character come a bit after launch rather than at day one, it'd feel for me more of as an extra rather than a hindrance to the game's enjoyment. i know i'm not the only one to feel this way on the matter but neither can i say if that is the general consensus towards the issue. 

#394
Ziggeh

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Because I'm curious if people react differently if it's $60 +$10 compared to just straight up selling the game "complete" but for $70.

People would complain, because people will complain no matter how this is handled.

But personally I didn't appreciate the pretence. Making it my responsibility to pay $70 for the complete game (and Javik involved critical plot points) didn't change the fact that the complete game cost $70. It just made me think of Bioware as underhanded in not accepting that responsibility themselves.

#395
Dean_the_Young

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What critical plot points did from the Ashes include?

'Hey, Javik, do you know anything important about the Crucible, our one real chance for beating the Reapers?'

'Nope.'

'Oh.'


He provided lore, but lore isn't plot.

#396
NRieh

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Because I'm curious if people react differently if it's $60 +$10 compared to just straight up selling the game "complete" but for $70.

My guess is that as a part of the main content his price should not be same as per DLC. It's like buying a bundle where each game has full price. Would I like to buy a game with more good content? Yes. Would I like to pay some extra for more good content? Yes, but only if I can stomack the final price (not more than ~40-50$ for digital PC copy on release, else I'm waiting for sales).

Once again, if someone decided that something is not a part of main content (especially, chracter), I wanna know, why could it happen, and what are we supposed to pay for. If player needs him - player should have him, each player. If player does not need him - why bother and pay more (be it bonus edition or stand-alone DLC).

#397
Ziggeh

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

What critical plot points did from the Ashes include?

His story is the only elaboration on The Pattern Vendetta tells you of, the quasi fatalism that affects everything - the odds against you and the reasoning of the reapers.

Without him it's just a meaningless statement that never goes anywhere.

#398
Fast Jimmy

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Because I'm curious if people react differently if it's $60 +$10 compared to just straight up selling the game "complete" but for $70.


I am a fan of increasing the sticker price for games beyond the artificial limit of $60. Market research shows that to get the highest volume of players, this is the sweet spot of price over volume, but that doesn't make it the best move for EVERY game. Selling tickets in IMAX or 3-D probably is a great move to get the most revenue for big blockbuster movies, but it wouldn't make sense if The Notebook was done that way.

That being said, I would have been highly unhappy with a $70 price tag for ME3, regardless if I "knew" Javik was what that extra $10 was for or not. Because ME3, to me, does not meet the qualifications for a $70 price tag from the vantage point of my own wallet. Story content, which Infound objectionable, would have been a factor, but strict logistics also are at play: the game had a short campaign (easily lasting only 30 hours for my speed assuming all side quests are done), the game was very linear (with no variation in how you can address tasks or any divergent content that comes from making choices) and the ending variability/replay value was extremely low (again, to me).

On the other hand, I would gladly have paid $70 for Skyrim, no DLC included. I would have paid $70 for Fallout: New Vegas. I would have paid $70 for DA:O and the Shale DLC... even though it was included for free for $60. Heck, I would have paid $80 or $90 for the Ultiamte Edition that included Awakening, let alone the steal it was for $60.

So using ME3, a game many could find lacking in long-shelflife value outside of MP, as a postulate for a $70 price tag might not be the best idea, just from my own perspective.

#399
ghost_ronin

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Anything that allows me to pimp out my character. Seriously, i will throw money at that kind of dlc. Just cosmetic stuff really. Dont forget the bigger dlcs too though.

#400
Fast Jimmy

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How much was sold on Day 2? On Day 3? How much do we make per unit sale of the retail box? How many preorders were made because it could get you the DLC? All


Peter Moore said that 40% attachment rate I quoted was for all of Week 1. We can assume a large amount of those were true Day One, but even if the full amount was lost during that first with a Week 2 DLC launch, that would only be 40% of the 1 million+ units of ME3 moved during the first week, equalling roughly 400,000 to 500,000 units, since we don't know the details of that "+" as well as Peter Moore.

Source

All for an unquantifiable cost of what the "PR disaster" actually costs. The economics are not as simple as you paint it out to be.


Then let's throw all of the intangibles aside and look at what the PR disaster of ME3 cost, in terms of things that cost real dollars. Granted, the PR disaster from D1DLC was inextricably tied to the PR disaster for the endings, so it is incredibly difficult to measure anything about the ME3 release, tangible or not, without taking that into consideration.

EA's Help Center (or whatever it's called) staffing. I'm unsure if EA uses offshore or domestic birds for this work (possibly a mix of both), but it is something to consider. Given the flood of calls, emails, chat help and all other forms of correspondence, I would highly suspect, based on my own staffing model experience from a Contacf. Center perspective, this was a 50% hike in anticipated volume MINIMUM. Requiring extra staffing, overtime hours and infrastructure in terms of desks, phones, computers, etc. you'd likely see that spike from the month of March well into late May/early June when the EC came out. Granted, not 100% related to D1DLC, but definitely a contributing factor and a source of some of these complaints.

You could argue that the salaries of Mike Gamble, Casey Hudson and any execs/managers in the PR/Marketing department went solely to managing the ME3 fiasco full tilt. While not a true lost expense in terms increased expenses, any other tasks or functions, including positively promoting the game (instead of putting out fires) were lost opportunities while these salaried work was consumed with damage control.

Vendor relations, such as with shipping back returned copies through Amazon, BestBuy, GameStop, etc. consume time and coordination to move the physical products back and forth, as well as money management group sending the appropriate funds and credits back. Not to mention the intangible cost of gaining a bad name with some of these groups.

The time Bioware spent talking to agents for their big name actors might be either negligible or mammoth, as we're unsure if actors like Martin Sheen and Seth Green may have been agitated about being drug through the mud by fans and the public along with the game. Intangible costs of losing a pool of willing actors to join a video game series (let alone a Bioware game) is an intangible cost that isn't often discussed, just is the possible cost of actors being more likely to play armchair directors, some maybe even being the video game equivalents of Edward Norton and would seek editorial review of the game's plot to avoid having their names attached to a sub-par product.

Marketing materials for Javik likely had to be reviewed and possibly pulled and reissued to counter the messages of being on-disc and the integration of Javik's character into the main plot in original scripts.


Again, many of these are directly tied to the endings controversy. However, the controversy put the entire game under a microscope, causing the most caustic and brutal analysis of every facet of the game's development and release. Large numbers of people who bought the game felt let down, but many who had shelled out the money for the Collector's Edition felt especially burned, which directed some of the ire to the extra content included with that CE, Javik.

Point being, you never know when a game will have something that will cause it to be received in a largely negative way. But pricing and planning your DLC model with the mindset that the game will be loved is a risky one, one that can result in a developer's name being dragged through the mud. Again, for a small piece of the revenue pie when you look at the big picture. It is difficult to prove one way versus another... but when it comes to uncertainty why not tread the more cutious path, especially when you are talking about charging your customers a 15% markup?

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 01 août 2013 - 01:29 .