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[Fast Jimmy]

David7204 wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Again, removing content from a game for the purpose of selling on as DLC is a loathsome practice. It's overtly anti-consumer, unprincipled, manifestly cynical and rude! What's to argue?

The fact that businesses have every right to sell their product as they see fit?

The fact that developers are not obligated to try and pack as much content as they can into a 60 buck product, and that doing so would likely result ultimately in less resources for developers and lower quality games? 

The fact that 'removing content from a game' is so ambiguous to be almost a worthless definition? Does that mean the removal of totally complete, finished, high quality content? Does it mean the removal of ideas that were definitely workable concepts but didn't make the cut, such as Omega? Does it mean the removal of any concept so much as mentioned or discussed by the developers? 

Developers are free to sell their product in any way they wish. 

Consumers are free to call any practice they don't agree with as unethical. 

It's a magical carousel of freedom. The problem? The company is the one that has to keep the consumers happy, not the other way around. 

Also, you are arguing against the concept of DLC in general. That's not what the comaints are about. The complaints are about DLC that is completed, marketed and sold on Day One, right alongside the vanilla product. Nowhere else in the real of consumer fiction do you see such blatant consumerism, where on the very first day of selling your product, there is the product (your story) and the MORE AWESOME product (the story +). 

As I stated earlier in the thread, companies would be wise to work diligently on a Day 1 Free Patch (every game needs one) and focus on creating a Week 3/4 DLC. Consumers would protest less, revenue would still be high that close to release date and it would even discourage less sell backs during the first few weeks (resulting in less Used Game sales that the developer doesn't see a penny of). It would be a better model for everyone involved. 

[David7204]

Oh yes. The other way around too. If BioWare suddenly stops making games, a lot of very invested people are going to be left in the cold. The reality is we need stories more than they need money. They're talented people, they would all be snatched up by other companies quickly. We don't have that luxury.

DLC is unique, period. No other medium of fiction has ANY kind of analogous content. It's a great advantage of video games as a storytelling medium and one not to be discarded.

Modifié par David7204, 27 juillet 2013 - 11:35 .

[Maria Caliban]

David7204 wrote...

DLC is unique, period. No other medium of fiction has ANY kind of analogous content.

The director's cut of a movie usually has extra content that was removed from the theatrical release. I suppose that's somewhat analogous.

[David7204]

I honestly have no idea at all how far content being on the disc goes to 'prove' how much it was done in advance. I have no idea how far in advance they have to finalize the master disc for production.

[Maria Caliban]

Certification can take weeks or months.

From Ashes stuff on game disk:
1. Javic's character model
2. His powers
3. Some combat barks

From Ashes stuff not on the disk:
1. The Eden Prime mission
2. Conversations with Javik
3. Various cutscenes featuring him
4. The alternative uniforms for other squadmates

This is why the From Ashes DLC is 600 mbs. It's almost as though when the game shipped, they had parts of it done but not others.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 27 juillet 2013 - 11:51 .

[ScotGaymer]

It really depends on the kind of DLC that is being released if I object to it or not.

With Dragon Age and the Stone Prisoner and Exiled Prince DLCs I did not object to them (because I got them free cos I preordered lol) largely because neither Shale nor Sebastian were critical to the gaming experience.
I mean as awesome as Shale was (and lets face it she is awesome) you could play and complete DAO without her and not even notice a slight difference in your gaming experience. It was the same for Sebastian, in DA2 we had characters to fill pretty much every role, so Sebastian was an extraneous character.

He doesn't offer anything extra to the game in any substantial plot impacting way, nor do we need him to slot into a "missing space" as we have both Varric, and possibly Hawke, filling that role.

I did however object to From Ashes being Pay For Day One DLC.

I have several reasons for that.

One = From Ashes itself (its storyline and plot content) was arguably storyline critical. It provides information on the history, background, and details of the universe that is significant enough that you damage your understanding of the universe if it wasn't there.
Two = Javik as a character is also arguably a critical character. He (unlike Shale and Sebastian) is filling a hole in the roster, obstensibly the party vanguard (like Wrex and Grunt).
Three = Unlike Stone Prisoner and Exiled Prince, the From Ashes DLC wasn't free. At all. Most people got SP and EP for free or were able to get it for like 4 dollars if they didn't get it as part of the pre order bonuses. From Ashes on the other hand cost 10 bucks which was the price difference between the Standard Edition and the N7 Collectors Edition. And was pretty much the only difference between the two editions that is worth noting. So everybody who wanted it paid for it no matter the edition.

Unlike SP and EP, the lack of From Ashes is noticable. It has a noticable impact on your game. It could be argued that it was quite clearly (unlike EP and SP) content that was shorn out of the main game expressly to sell as DLC.
And that I object to.

So in conclusion, lol, if it is something that is quite clearly optional and will not affect the game for the lack of it then sell whatever the heck you like as Day One DLC. But the moment not having it makes an impact on the gaming experience of your consumer base, then you should not sell it as Day One DLC - it should either be free and released with the game, or you should leave off a few weeks to "finish" it and then release it.

[David7204]

Then that's the end of it. Fandango, you claimed this content is 'Fully integrated.' Unless Maria is telling a very specific lie, It clearly isn't.

[David7204]

You'd think piracy would be more of a concern if getting free DLC was so easy. Who are these people? And could you explain why my Xbox took time for the download if all it needed was a certification key? Did BioWare set up an elaborate scheme for the Xbox and Playstation to spend 30 minutes downloading junk data as a smokescreen to disguise that you didn't actually need a download at all?

Modifié par David7204, 27 juillet 2013 - 12:01 .

[David7204]

Do you know the name of one? Where I could find one?

Modifié par David7204, 27 juillet 2013 - 12:05 .

[David7204]

So what evidence do you have that these people actually exist?

[David7204]

Don't give me this nonsense. You've presented these 'people' as evidence that From Ashes can be played without a download and thus that From Ashes is fully complete on the disc. I need evidence. What evidence do you have that these people actually exist?

Modifié par David7204, 27 juillet 2013 - 12:11 .

[ScotGaymer]

There are a number of videos on youtube of people showing that they DON'T have From Ashes and showing them playing the game with Javik.

[David7204]

Yes, Maria said that his character model and powers were on the disc. Are there videos of players on the Eden Prime mission? Videos of the cutscenes that are specifically focused on him?

[David7204]

Oh, I see. So when you made all those proclamations earlier about the content being 'fully integrated'...you didn't actually mean 'From Ashes' at all. No cutscenes, no Eden Prime mission, no conversations, and no alternate outfits. Just the character model and animations, the powers, and the combat barks. Is that right?

In other words, nothing more than what the squad appearances in the arena during Citadel contain.

See, when someone says 'Fully Integrated, they usually mean everything is integrated. Hence the 'fully' in front.

Modifié par David7204, 27 juillet 2013 - 12:25 .

[In Exile]

Fandango9641 wrote...

No, we all know that the DLC holds the mission data David. My point is that JAVIK was on the disc, fully integrated and available day one.

Yes, because they finished that part of the game already, since it was planned DLC. The objection seems to be that, somehow, if Bioware didn't charge extra for it, they would include it in the game anyway instead of cutting it. Where does this idea come from?

[David7204]

Fandango9641 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Oh, I see. So when you made all those proclamations earlier about the content being 'fully integrated'...you didn't actually mean 'From Ashes' at all. No cutscenes, no Eden Prime mission, no conversations, and no alternate outfits. Just the character model and animations, the powers, and the combat barks. Is that right?

In other words, nothing more than what the squad appearances in the arena during Citadel contain.

See, when someone says 'Fully Integrated, they usually mean everything is integrated. Hence the 'fully' in front.

Really? Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the content 'fully integrated' at launch? It was day one DLC David *shrugs*.

On the disc? No, it absolutely wasn't. Which is what your entire argument (That From Ashes was fully complete when production of the physical discs began, but BioWare stripped it for more money) rests on.

Are we done here? I don't think you have much more to say.

Modifié par David7204, 27 juillet 2013 - 12:35 .