532 réponses à ce sujet

[Das Tentakel]

David7204 wrote...

Oh yes. The other way around too. If BioWare suddenly stops making games, a lot of very invested people are going to be left in the cold. The reality is we need stories more than they need money. They're talented people, they would all be snatched up by other companies quickly. We don't have that luxury.

I suspect most of us would find a good use for the extra time and money. Books, movies, a visit to a museum, a good meal in a restaurant. Even (gasp!) buying another, equally good or superior videogame.

Unless you have BioWare RPG addiction issues and start having these weird withdrawal symptoms. 

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 27 juillet 2013 - 12:36 .

[David7204]

As I said, not much more to say.

One more thing, Fandango. I'm curious. What exactly do you suggest BioWare should have done? Should they have included the character model of Javik for free, but left out his cutscenes and mission for players to pay for?

Modifié par David7204, 27 juillet 2013 - 12:37 .

[Beerfish]

I don't think the op will get his wish because the whole idea behind day one dlc is to get you to buy the extended version or purchase that dlc separately. Right or wrong (I agree with the op that it is wrong) a few weapons or armor is not enough invcentive for people to get it.

[David7204]

Das Tentakel wrote...

I suspect most of us would find a good use for the extra time and money. Books, movies, a visit to a museum, a good meal in a restaurant. Even (gasp!) buying another, equally good or superior videogame.

Unless you have BioWare RPG addiction issues and start having these weird withdrawal symptoms. 

I'm curious why you bother to spend time here at all if 'superior' uses for your time and money are so plentiful.

Modifié par David7204, 27 juillet 2013 - 12:39 .

[Beerfish]

Das Tentakel wrote...



I suspect most of us would find a good use for the extra time and money. Books, movies, a visit to a museum, a good meal in a restaurant. Even (gasp!) buying another, equally good or superior videogame.

Unless you have BioWare RPG addiction issues and start having these weird withdrawal symptoms. 

This is EXACTLY the situation we have now.  'Most of us would?'  We are already there.  Everyone is free to spend their money as they see fit.  Everyone is free to buy whatever games they see fit.

[cjones91]

David7204 wrote...

Das Tentakel wrote...

I suspect most of us would find a good use for the extra time and money. Books, movies, a visit to a museum, a good meal in a restaurant. Even (gasp!) buying another, equally good or superior videogame.

Unless you have BioWare RPG addiction issues and start having these weird withdrawal symptoms. 

I'm curious why you bother to spend time here at all if 'superior' uses for your time and money are so plentiful.

Because he/she is a fan?You can like something and still be critical of it.

[Fugiz]

David7204 wrote...

As I said, not much more to say.

One more thing, Fandango. I'm curious. What exactly do you suggest BioWare should have done? Should they have included the character model of Javik for free, but left out his cutscenes and mission for players to pay for?

That would be even worse. If they can put a silent drone on the disk, why not  the cutscenes and missions? Why cut it out? It would be like the dude in your camp in DA:O who starts the Wardens Keep DLC.

[David7204]

If you're a fan, you clearly do have something to lose if BioWare decides to stop making games.

[In Exile]

Fandango9641 wrote...
How about none of those things and instead mirror what they did with Shale?

Cut it completely, then delay the game for a year to port it to consoles, and then include it into the game as a way to reduce used game sales? 

Modifié par In Exile, 27 juillet 2013 - 12:47 .

[cjones91]

David7204 wrote...

If you're a fan, you clearly do have something to lose if BioWare decides to stop making games.

Well, I have many games to choose from but yes if Bioware stops making games like Dragon Age then I would be forced to find another character driven Rpg.

[David7204]

Fugiz wrote...

David7204 wrote...

As I said, not much more to say.

One more thing, Fandango. I'm curious. What exactly do you suggest BioWare should have done? Should they have included the character model of Javik for free, but left out his cutscenes and mission for players to pay for?

That would be even worse. If they can put a silent drone on the disk, why not  the cutscenes and missions? Why cut it out? It would be like the dude in your camp in DA:O who starts the Wardens Keep DLC.

Because, amazingly, cutscenes and missions take time to make. Amazingly, BioWare does not have the ability to snap their fingers and have content appear from thin air. Amazingly, these things called 'deadlines' exist.

[cjones91]

In Exile wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...
How about none of those things and instead mirror what they did with Shale?

Cut it completely, then delay the game for a year to port it to consoles, and then include it into the game as a way to reduce used game sales? 

Or make the Dlc free to anyone who buys new instead of charging them for it.Stone Prisoner was free to anyone who bought Dragon Age:Origins new or the Ultimate Edition and whoever bought the game used had to pay for it.

[Fast Jimmy]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

In terms of timelines I'll say this: if people choose to believe that the devs are all lying about the development process, then there really isn't much meaningful discussion that can be had.

Really? Even when how the developer described that process turned out to be false? Even when the Community Manager came back out months later expressing regret that they were coerced into misleading players about key aspects of a game at launch, including the nature of MP and DLC?

Source requested.

As far as I know, BioWare said 1) From Ashes was created by a separate team, and 2) it wasn't finished until after the game was in certification.

That parts of From Ashes is on the disk doesn't contradict either of those statements.

The statement that it was created by a separete team after certification is totally bogus. If a large portion of dialogue, all combat/abilities, animations and most other squadmate banter can be activated (as seen here) with a few simple keystrokes and no actual download, then how could his content have been created by a separate team after certification began? It is physically impossible.

Sure, maybe his specific recruitment quest was completed, but the concept of his character being a very key part of the main plot (and, hence, him being a companion) was part of development since very early script leaks. Couple that with the fact that he is practically a complete squadmate without having to actually download his "DLC" points to both the ascertations you made to be, at best, half-truths. 

Also, in regards to teh Community Manager expressing regret in his role in questionable practices, here is one quote here.



Anyone saying that people who have a respectable level of cynicism when it comes to some of Bioware's practices, particularly with their DLC, are unfounded or unreasonable have a warped sense of consumerism. Just like car salesmen have a bad reputation for being sleazy and selling things as packages that are already included, Bioware's practices have placed them, with many fans, as being similarly dishonest. Maybe not outright lying... but it definietly now requires any statement said by any Bioware developer to be taken with a block of salt, not just a grain.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 27 juillet 2013 - 12:53 .

[In Exile]

cjones91 wrote...
Or make the Dlc free to anyone who buys new instead of charging them for it.

Yes, I covered that under "attacking used game sales". That's why it's free for everyone who buys new: to punish those who buy used. 

[Fast Jimmy]

Maria Caliban wrote...

David7204 wrote...

DLC is unique, period. No other medium of fiction has ANY kind of analogous content.

The director's cut of a movie usually has extra content that was removed from the theatrical release. I suppose that's somewhat analogous.

Yes, and the director's cut is never sold as a separete product the very same day as the first release (if it is, it is not done so widely in all markets, but rather in very limited, special settings to the point where it hardly even qualifies as an actual product offering, but more of a VIP perk).

[Fast Jimmy]

David7204 wrote...

Don't give me this nonsense. You've presented these 'people' as evidence that From Ashes can be played without a download and thus that From Ashes is fully complete on the disc. I need evidence. What evidence do you have that these people actually exist?

One of my links is a YouTube video that shows how to "crack" this. It takes a text editor and ten seconds to activate nearly all of Javik's content minus some conversations and him actually appearing on the ship.

[In Exile]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
The statement that it was created by a separete team after certification is totally bogus. If a large portion of dialogue, all combat/abilities, animations and most other squadmate banter can be activated (as seen here) with a few simple keystrokes and no actual download, then how could his content have been created by a separate team after certification began? It is physically impossible.

That's not what Maria said. She said that (i) a separate team created the content and (ii) that all of the content wasn't finished until release. That is not the same as saying that a separate team started and finished all of the content after certification. 

It could mean that the character VO (which would include banter), animations, and combat/animations were designed by a separate group of people than those who designed the cutscene cinematics and the levels (Eden Prime), and that the labour was divided post/pre certification when you could assign those assets that were tiddling their thumbs to design things like the level and the cinematics. 

You're completely right that anyone that actually believes that the whole DLC is created de novo after certification is parting company with reality, but that's not what Maria said.

[David7204]

We've already established that what was included on the disk was a character model, powers, and combat barks.

No cutscenes. No Eden Prime mission.

The idea that a model, powers, and barks constitutes a 'character' is absurd. No meaningful content was on the disc. No meaningful content was stripped away and resold.

Modifié par David7204, 27 juillet 2013 - 01:00 .

[Fast Jimmy]

In Exile wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Or make the Dlc free to anyone who buys new instead of charging them for it.

Yes, I covered that under "attacking used game sales". That's why it's free for everyone who buys new: to punish those who buy used. 

I don't think it's to PUNISH them. It is a way to inventivize them to buy new. But I guess that's all just a matter of perspective.

I'd rather they engage in a practice that cuts down used game sales (since those wind up giving ZERO money to developers - much more effective at preventing them from "starving in the streets" as David seems to be implying) rather than them try and plug more Collector's Edition sales.

If you don't want to buy the Collector's Edition (and are willing to forgo the DLC), why WOULDN'T you buy Used if you could? Or, like me, renting? It seems to be attacking the absolute wrong side of the equation.

[David7204]

People are less likely to resell their games and make used games available in the first place if they've purchased DLC. It's an asset they can't resell or transfer.

[Fast Jimmy]

David7204 wrote...

We've already established that what was included on the disk was a character model, powers, and combat barks.

No cutscenes. No Eden Prime mission.

The idea that a model, powers, and barks constitutes a 'character' is absurd. No meaningful content was on the disc. No meaningful content was stripped away and resold.

There was dialogue. Dialogue that, word for word, was found in leaked scripts from earlier on in the development process. 

Or is dialogue not apart of what makes a character? Only actual cutscenes? 

Very few characters in ME3 are part of cutscenes. They all just have hooks that draw the appropriate squadmate into the scene. So the number of "cutscenes" that Javik specific are few and far between, just like any other companion/character.


Besdies, you are moving the goalposts. You said the content was not available. You said these hackers were questionable in their validity. Then we show you that they are correct, that are large portion of the character was fully completed and on the disc and you say "well, that's not what *I* call completed." 

Besides, given the amount of backpedaling and story changing Bioware had to do with this DLC, who is to say that anything that didn't actually make it on the disc wasn't already completed as well? Those downloadable dialogue, missions and cutscenes may have been by and large completed when the certification happened, with the other stuff left on disc to make the download smaller. We have no way of verifying when the DLC content was actually created... but we can verify that Bioware was not as upfront on the questions they received as they should have been. 

So between an unreliable source looking to cover their own practices and uncertainty, I guess all we have left are the... Speculations.

[David7204]

That's utterly ridiculous. I never once claimed that all content from 'From Ashes' was on the disc. I merely (correctly) questioned the proclamation by Fandango that the content was 'Fully Integrated.'

I don't need to justify myself in finding fault for 'Fully Integrated' meaning anything but Fully Integrated. And you whine about BioWare making false statements? The hypocrisy.

Maybe 'fully integrated' means 'any part of the content is on the disc'? And if anyone complains, they must be 'moving the goalposts'?

Modifié par David7204, 27 juillet 2013 - 01:13 .

[Fast Jimmy]

David7204 wrote...

People are less likely to resell their games and make used games available in the first place if they've purchased DLC. It's an asset they can't resell or transfer.

And people are less likely to buy the DLC if it only comes with a more expensive Collector's Edition or they have to shell over an extra $10/15 bucks. 

The model has progressed. Originally, Shale was a way to give something to fans who bought the game new, somethign they legitimately wanted in the game originally, couldn't get done, but then had an unexpected schedule change that allowed them to finish it. They saw it was good at promoting the game, so they wanted to use it in future games. The D1DLC in ME2 and DA2 was then used to secure pre-orders, through the free Signature Editions (which were just "first-come, first-served standard edition pre-orders).

Then, in ME3, they took it one step too far (to my tastes, at least) to try and use it to sell more expensive Collector's Editions. This wasn't combatting lost used game revenue or securing pre-orders. It was trying to convince people to pre-pay for their DLC, base game sight unseen. 

I find it also quite convenient that, after ME1 did not have a "incomplete companion that had to be released as DLC," DA:O had one (after a nine month delay), but suddenly ME2, DA2 and ME3 all had companions that were SO close to completion during the normal course of development that they couldn't be completed in crunch time, but could be completely polished up and ready to go in the 2-3 months after certification.

That CERTAINLY couldn't be a recoccuring market strategy to simply stagger development on a selected character to be used a DLC ploy... could it?