532 réponses à ce sujet

[Das Tentakel]

David7204 wrote...

Das Tentakel wrote...

I suspect most of us would find a good use for the extra time and money. Books, movies, a visit to a museum, a good meal in a restaurant. Even (gasp!) buying another, equally good or superior videogame.

Unless you have BioWare RPG addiction issues and start having these weird withdrawal symptoms. 

I'm curious why you bother to spend time here at all if 'superior' uses for your time and money are so plentiful.

Tssk, tssk. Who said anything about 'superior'? If I touched a nerve, I humbly apologize.

But let me clarify: There are lots of ways for us to spend our entertainment dollars, euros, forints, rubles, yen etc. If one thing falls away, another can easily take their place. With the possible exception of true fanatics (the original meaning of 'fan'), there is no dependency relationship on the side of the customers.

Unless BioWare games contain subliminal messages that 'reprogram' our brains. Which would be kind of cool

[David7204]

Why not? It's completely legitimate for developers to plan to spend the time between certification and release on something productive.

[LPPrince]

Well, when it comes to an actual companion character that we can use from start to finish in the game, that should obviously come at launch as its hard to justify starting a new playthrough of a game for a single unnecessary to the main plot companion.

Problem is, I don't like one of those characters being split off from the main game. Even if they're extra, it feels off.

I was okay with Shale because of the situation, but then after hearing in marketing about a dozen ME2 squadmates, only to get a denial later, have ten in the main game, then two released post launch? That made me suspicious.

Then we had Sebastian.

Then we had Javik and the whole reveal of the Prothean WELL ahead of the launch date.

And at this point I'm really tired of it.

I appreciate when a game can come out, like say Skyrim, with no "pre-order for this exclusive character/weapon/land/mission" content.

Its all just in the game I bought. And content made to expand on the content already in the game is left for afterward, so I can jump back in and continue it.

The problem with this being used for Dragon Age is that a game like a TES title has WAY more stuff to do after its main quest is completed, as compared to a Dragon Age where it pretty much IS the main quest. So its easier to just jump back in a TES game for DLC expansions than say a DA game.

Honestly I think I'd rather Bioware give us whatever is already prepared in the main game, and if they're working on extra content to put into the game while its still being made, they save it for a more rich and content filled full blown expansion than just tiny little DLC packs here and there sprinkling weapons and armor.

So when it comes down to Day-One DLC and Bioware, I'd rather they have NONE. But if they have to have some, I'd rather it be things that are reeeeally not significant, like a weapon or armor. Not a companion. In a game where companions have personalities and relationships with the people among them and are gonna be with you throughout the game, they are definitely a significant presence even if they aren't that important to the plot line. Having one excluded from the main game to be used as bait to preorder or spend a little more money makes me sad.

If thats not the case and its all about, "we have people who work here and they'd have nothing to do if we just stopped" than I'd rather they start working on expansive content for a future DLC release with its own self contained story, characters, etc etc than a character they're gonna try to throw into the game Day One.

But maybe thats just me.

[In Exile]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
I don't think it's to PUNISH them. It is a way to inventivize them to buy new. But I guess that's all just a matter of perspective.

I'd rather they engage in a practice that cuts down used game sales (since those wind up giving ZERO money to developers - much more effective at preventing them from "starving in the streets" as David seems to be implying) rather than them try and plug more Collector's Edition sales.

If you don't want to buy the Collector's Edition (and are willing to forgo the DLC), why WOULDN'T you buy Used if you could? Or, like me, renting? It seems to be attacking the absolute wrong side of the equation.

I was being snarky. That's why I used "punish". I agree with you completely. 

Fandango9641 wrote...
That was inherent in what I said? 

Yes, because you asked for them to do what they did with Shale. She was cut content, which originally would have been found in Redcliffe, but restored when DA:O was delayed by a year to a have a simulatenous release on consoles, and then was part of EA's Project $10 as a way to reduce used game sales. 

[In Exile]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

The model has progressed. Originally, Shale was a way to give something to fans who bought the game new, somethign they legitimately wanted in the game originally, couldn't get done, but then had an unexpected schedule change that allowed them to finish it. They saw it was good at promoting the game, so they wanted to use it in future games. The D1DLC in ME2 and DA2 was then used to secure pre-orders, through the free Signature Editions (which were just "first-come, first-served standard edition pre-orders).
 

That's attributable to EA, and as I mentioned, Project $10. Bioware's business practices, back in the day, were different (and much more oriented toward the story-based DLC we see rather than character based DLC). They pioneered DLC with premium models in NWN. 

[David7204]

I'd have no problem with BioWare releasing games for 70 bucks that have no day one DLC or pre-order content.

I'd have no problem with BioWare releasing games for $120 or $150 that have no DLC at all.

[David7204]

That's exactly the point. You made some very silly claims that From Ashes was stripped, fully completed, from the game and put on the disc for a little extra money. When it reality, all that was put on disc was a character model, powers, and combat barks.

The DLC was not completed. Do you grasp that concept? It was not completed when production of the discs began. Any complaints about content being intentionally taken away from the game to be resold are thus nonsense.

Modifié par David7204, 27 juillet 2013 - 01:27 .

[Weskerr]

Now that BioWare is aware that consumers can check if DLC is already on a physical disc copy of the game, I'm afraid that going foward, they'll just put all DLC content in a downloadable package and claim "See! All the DLC content had to be downloaded. Therefore, we started working on it after the base game was certified," when it's not true.

My point is DLC content that is not on the disc AT ALL but acquired only through a download does not have to mean it was worked on after the base game was certified. Going forward, checking the disc for DLC content is no longer a sure fire way to confrim whether or not DLC was worked on before or after certification.

Modifié par Weskerr, 27 juillet 2013 - 01:50 .

[Fast Jimmy]

David7204 wrote...

That's exactly the point. You made some very silly claims that From Ashes was stripped, fully completed, from the game and put on the disc for a little extra money. When it reality, all that was put on disc was a character model, powers, and combat barks.

The DLC was not completed. Do you grasp that concept? It was not completed when production of the discs began. Any complaints about content being intentionally taken away from the game to be resold are thus nonsense.

But you do not have anymore knowledge of that than any of us. We don't know what was completed, we only know what was on disc. 

It is entirely possible that if ambient squad banter was completed, then it is highly likely that they had other scenes recorded and completed that were just not included on the disc when it completed certification. We don't know. 

And the only people that do have that information also have a reputation of not being truthful on the subject (not to mention have a lot invested in selling one story versus another, for financial, professional and legal reasons). So we'll never know... but to say the very idea is verifiable or traceable is a bit of a misnomer. 

[David7204]

Innocent until proven guilty. You 'don't know' that anyone you pass on the street is not a child serial killer. Assuming and acting as if they are is still stupid.

[Weskerr]

David7204 wrote...

Innocent until proven guilty. You 'don't know' that anyone you pass on the street is not a child serial killer. Assuming and acting as if they are is still stupid.

That only applies in a court of law. Consumers, on the other hand, do not have to follow that standard of determining guilt when deciding to believe a company or not that is trying to sell them something.

Modifié par Weskerr, 27 juillet 2013 - 01:54 .

[David7204]

It applies in a court of law because it's a valid and justified concept. Consumers don't have to do anything. They can be as silly and unreasonable as they want. However, producers would be wise to ignore the demands of such consumers, wouldn't they?

Modifié par David7204, 27 juillet 2013 - 01:56 .

[Weskerr]

I'm not saying it's not a valid concept, but seeing as how the dynamics between seller and consumer is not set up like a courtroom, the seller better make damn well sure that not only are they not ripping the consumer off, but they are also perceived as not ripping the consumer off. If both of these conditions aren't satisfied, the consumer will at least complain if not outright abstain from buying from the seller.

If BioWare is in fact NOT lying about this, it is still important that they also appear as if they're telling the truth. In any case, neither side of this debate can prove conclusively that their argument is correct - unless BioWare were to release all information pertaining to it.

Modifié par Weskerr, 27 juillet 2013 - 02:11 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

It might not be finished by the time the entire game goes out for certification, but if they develop it at the same time, people will find bits of it in the main game, which they will use as elements of cut content. 

Certification. That's the word I was looking for.

The suggestion that it is on the disk and therefor should be available ignores elements of development. Content can be both complete and not ready.
 

Then why include it on the disc, unless your goal is to finish it and charge more later?

Because locking it off takes less time and is more stable than removing it and making sure that nothing breaks that depended on certain settings, data, or whatever in that data somewhere. If you remove that content, you need a programmer to go in and make sure that nothing is dependent on anything in that content. You need QA to test to verify that everything still works after removing that content. And near the end of the project, when everyone is working 80 hour weeks and up to their eyeballs in other issues that could block the certification process from passing, most developers just can't spare that sort of development time just to appease some people who have hex editors and want to scream "BUT IT'S ALREADY ON THE DISC!".

And who is to say that the content could have not been finished before it was deemed DLC?

The producers who cut it to begin with in order to meet the ship date.

For instance, under a tight schedule, let's say you have five tasks to complete, but only have time for four. Finishin up a character is much more important than all your other tasks, like cleaning up Codes entries, but the character gets flagged for DLC, so their priority is dropped to the bottom. So what would have had time to be completed before going Gold is now relegated to being delayed, because people will pay extra money for extra companion DLC, but they won't for a revised/more accurate Codex (at least not in large droves). Can we really say that smaller things that would need to be fixed with a free patch might take precedence over completing something that you can charge for completinglater?

When a game is finished, there are a ton of constraints that are out there that take precedence over "give the players more free content". There are licenses that need to be appeased, bugs that first party (MSFT, Nintendo, Sony) say must be fixed but specifically can be fixed in a day 1 title update rather than delay the cert process even more, and a host of other things. It is these issues, not a "revised or more accurate codex" that they are working on fixing before the game ships. The sort of content fixes you're talking about get locked down weeks, if not months, before the ship date. The sort of fixes that they have to do at the point of the content being cut is "these textures aren't properly displaying", "the text in this quest breaks cert", "answering with the diplomatic answer four times in this conversation causes a soft lock", "the load time for this quest breaks cert", etc.

I'll just go back to the example of KOTOR 2, and hope that it sheds some light on why they might do these things. KOTOR 2 had an entire ending arc included, but unfinished, on the disc. The assets were there, most of the dialogue was written, a lot of things were already scripted, but it wasn't complete or ready for the public. It wasn't finished, but the game already had a ton of bugs and Obsidian absolutely needed to get the game finished and out the door, so they cut all that content near the end and instead focused on getting the rest of the game to a finished state. Some folks eventually modded the content into the game, and it was available for a select few, but it wasn't polished, it wasn't finished, it was buggy, and there were many things broken with it. It was clearly in a worse state than the rest of the game, which wasn't exactly in a shining state of completion when it shipped either. Like most of Obsidian's games, it was riddled with bugs when it shipped.

If they had been given the funding and time and finished and packaged it later as DLC, people could (and likely would) make all of the same complaints you are making right now. That content was on the disc, it didn't require that much more development to make it shippable, it should have been in the main game, blah blah blah. But it was never packaged as DLC, because they didn't have that option. It was just abandoned and left on the disk in some sort of cut content graveyard. So, rather than getting an extended ending with all of that content they had started, the gamer got nothing. That's the choice you're given here. It isn't "get the content for free" or "get  the content and pay for it". It's "get the content and pay for it" or "get nothing". 

KOTOR 2 is hardly alone either; there are many instances of cut content being on the disk and inaccessible for the very reason I outlined above. DAO has references to the fifth (cut) origin in it, Rise to Honor has the skeletons of the SUV scene that was cut, World of Warcraft shipped with Hyjal and Ahn Qiraj incomplete but the assets already in the game, and so on and so forth. Most games have some sort of cut content that development was started on and abandoned at some point. Most of them also probably have remnants of that content on the disc somewhere, you just don't know about it.

Does that mean you're entitled to finished, polished, and quality versions of that content just because parts of it are on the disc somewhere? I don't think it does.

[Mr.House]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

David7204 wrote...

People are less likely to resell their games and make used games available in the first place if they've purchased DLC. It's an asset they can't resell or transfer.

And people are less likely to buy the DLC if it only comes with a more expensive Collector's Edition or they have to shell over an extra $10/15 bucks. 

The model has progressed. Originally, Shale was a way to give something to fans who bought the game new, somethign they legitimately wanted in the game originally, couldn't get done, but then had an unexpected schedule change that allowed them to finish it. They saw it was good at promoting the game, so they wanted to use it in future games. The D1DLC in ME2 and DA2 was then used to secure pre-orders, through the free Signature Editions (which were just "first-come, first-served standard edition pre-orders).

Then, in ME3, they took it one step too far (to my tastes, at least) to try and use it to sell more expensive Collector's Editions. This wasn't combatting lost used game revenue or securing pre-orders. It was trying to convince people to pre-pay for their DLC, base game sight unseen. 

I find it also quite convenient that, after ME1 did not have a "incomplete companion that had to be released as DLC," DA:O had one (after a nine month delay), but suddenly ME2, DA2 and ME3 all had companions that were SO close to completion during the normal course of development that they couldn't be completed in crunch time, but could be completely polished up and ready to go in the 2-3 months after certification.

That CERTAINLY couldn't be a recoccuring market strategy to simply stagger development on a selected character to be used a DLC ploy... could it? 

So what's your defense for Wardens Keep for DAO? Day one dlc that was not free except for certain PC users.

[Fast Jimmy]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
<snip>

I wouldn't say anyone's entitled to free content. I would say people are entitled to call certain business practices unethical if they feel they are so.

In regards to keeping things in because it would run the risk of breaking other stuff or they didn't have time to do a proper clean sweep, so they left it in, that makes perfect sense to me in my experience with software development. It is such a good answer that Ina thusly wonder why it wasn't actually used by Casey Hudson/Mike Gamble/the Doctors when answering questions about it.

Regardless, there are graveyards of unfinished content that wind up on disc. The problem is when you start charging for it after you finish it. For instance, if I watch the Eden Prime From Ashes scenes on YouTube, I can then activate the hack to give me Javik and not miss much of anything with the DLC. To charge for that content is then possibly questionable from a consumer point of view. It may seem uneducated or incorrect to you, but that is highly irrelevant. As I stated earlier, perception is reality.

By Bioware engaging in these practices, they are perceived as being deceitful and greedy. Regardless of whether they actually are, they have to deal with that perception if they continue to handle D1DLC in this manner. If you can tell a player some basic facts about the process and they feel it is a rip-off, then it is a rip-off (regardless whether it actually is or not). They would be wise to evaluate that reality and adjust their practices if they do not like such perceptions.

And, if they don't care about such perceptions and they feel they are making the right amount of money by continuing to stay the course, then that is their option as well. Just don't be surprised when some even take that fact of staying the course because the money is good to mean the company is being anti-consumer and greedy.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 27 juillet 2013 - 02:33 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
<snip>

I wouldn't say anyone's entitled to free content. I would say people are entitled to call certain business practices unethical if they feel they are so.

I'd rather try to educate than perpetuate ignorance.

[Realmzmaster]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

David7204 wrote...

DLC is unique, period. No other medium of fiction has ANY kind of analogous content.

The director's cut of a movie usually has extra content that was removed from the theatrical release. I suppose that's somewhat analogous.

Yes, and the director's cut is never sold as a separete product the very same day as the first release (if it is, it is not done so widely in all markets, but rather in very limited, special settings to the point where it hardly even qualifies as an actual product offering, but more of a VIP perk).

I have always been able to buy director's cuts of the movie the same day the standard product comes out. It is given as a choice. There is a price difference. The consumer can choose the standard edition at a lower price or the director's cut with the cut content and extras at a higher price. Assuming there is a director's cut.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

Not the same day the movie DEBUTS. The fiction product itself - the movie - does not have a standard version and an extended cut version in separate theaters.

You are talking about an after market product of the fiction in the form of DVD/Blu-Ray.

[In Exile]

Fandango9641 wrote...
So you think that's what I was asking for eh? I must be way more suggestive than I ever realised (the thought never crossed my mind, that's for sure). Well done.

You said:

How about none of those things [in reference to a post discussing leaving in Javik's animations in for free, but making his mission and cutscenes paywalled] and instead mirror what they did with Shale?

Mirroring what they did with Shale would mean cutting the content, and then offering it back for free as a way to reduced used games sales. 

[Fast Jimmy]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
<snip>

I wouldn't say anyone's entitled to free content. I would say people are entitled to call certain business practices unethical if they feel they are so.

I'd rather try to educate than perpetuate ignorance.

What you call ignorance many cynical economists call human nature.

You can't educate millions of potential consumers that a certain business practice is morally okay through a forum post. I can, on the other hand, make the argument that a slight change to policy would avoid this negative consumer whiplash that, if repeated often enough, may have the likelihood of being seen by Bioware employees (as well as accompanying responses by fellow fans) that may, on the slim chance, change someone's mind.

Between the two, neither of us have the chance of mattering much, but at least my method has a slight chance of being effective. 

[Little Princess Peach]

How about no first day dlc and just give us a map a la elder scrolls, there is no need for day one dlc really.