532 réponses à ce sujet

[Realmzmaster]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

Not the same day the movie DEBUTS. The fiction product itself - the movie - does not have a standard version and an extended cut version in separate theaters.

You are talking about an after market product of the fiction in the form of DVD/Blu-Ray.

Also not quite true. Depends on the movie theater and the movie. In one showing I was able to see a movie (I believe it was the Avengers) in standard edition, 3-D and a director's cut (which was longer) at the same movie theater playing in three different studios. The theater charged more for the 3D and director's cut.

[Leanansidhe]

Has anyone brought up the fact that if you bought the CE of Jade Empire, you got an extra character that other people didn't get?

BioWare pretty much pioneered the concept of story DLC (NWN) and character DLC (JE).

You people that are absolutely CONVINCED that all day one DLC is content that's on the disk, but locked away, are pretty much deluded.  Actual programmers have tried to tell you, again and again, how game development works, but you absolutely refuse to give credence to anything that contradicts your beliefs.

A game developer could bring you into the studio, and show you the process exactly, and you'd cover your ears while screaming, "LALALALALALA."

Go ahead and be a gaming hipster.  I, for one, will be buying all the dlc available...twice.  Once for my PC and once for my XBox.  And then I will play my BW games with all the content, and all the characters, and have a great time, while you sit back and pout.

Have fun with that.

[hoorayforicecream]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

Not the same day the movie DEBUTS. The fiction product itself - the movie - does not have a standard version and an extended cut version in separate theaters.

You are talking about an after market product of the fiction in the form of DVD/Blu-Ray.

Also not quite true. Depends on the movie theater and the movie. In one showing I was able to see a movie (I believe it was the Avengers) in standard edition, 3-D and a director's cut (which was longer) at the same movie theater playing in three different studios. The theater charged more for the 3D and director's cut.

There's also the IMAX versions of the same movies which also cost more and are released on the same day.

[Fast Jimmy]

Also not quite true. Depends on the movie theater and the movie. In one showing I was able to see a movie (I believe it was the Avengers) in standard edition, 3-D and a director's cut (which was longer) at the same movie theater playing in three different studios. The theater charged more for the 3D and director's cut.

There was no Director's Cut. What you likely saw were tickets for the Director's Hall, which is movie jargon for a place with a slightly bigger screen, more plush chairs, concessions carts so you don't to leave your seat, etc.

The content itself, the STORY itself, was the same. 3-D and bigger chairs are aesthetic/comfort perks. Much like weapon, gear or skin pack DLCs. They add flavor, but there is no different substance there.

There is no analogue to what story D1DLC is in any fiction industry. Or, if there is, it is on such a small scale/available to such an exclusive group/audience that it makes it more of a VIP perk in other industries instead of a mass-market revenue strategy.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 27 juillet 2013 - 03:58 .

[Sanunes]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

Not the same day the movie DEBUTS. The fiction product itself - the movie - does not have a standard version and an extended cut version in separate theaters.

You are talking about an after market product of the fiction in the form of DVD/Blu-Ray.

Even if its DVD/Blu-Ray on the day they release the movie on the formats they have multiple versions at a higher price. They have the Blu-Ray Combo Pack, DVD, DVD Extended, and the 3D Blu-Ray Combo Pack all for different prices varying up to around $40 for the 3D Blu-Ray Combo Pack.

If its about seeing a movie in Theaters when Star Trek Into Darkness was first released my local theater had it showing on four screens, one was 2D, two were for 3D, and one was in IMAX 3D.  All charged different prices for different options. The 2D showing was $12, the 3D showing was $15, and the IMAX 3D was $19.

Regarding Javik, I can't find the post but I remember that there was a BioWare poster that said that they had to put the model and update the character select screen on the disk because the character select screen couldn't be updated with DLC.  I also think the same type of information was on the ME2 disk for Zaheed and Kasumi.  I could be completely wrong with this information for I am trying to remember information that is probably over a year old.

Modifié par Sanunes, 27 juillet 2013 - 04:08 .

[Fast Jimmy]

If its about seeing a movie in Theaters when Star Trek Into Darkness was first released my local theater had it showing on four screens, one was 2D, two were for 3D, and one was in iMax 3D. All charged different prices for different options. The 2D showing was $12, the 3D showing was $15, and the iMax 3D was $19.

As I just said - all aesthetics/creature comforts. Equivalent to extra skins that make your characters look different or weapons that make the first few levels more simple than the standard equipment.

There is no extra story content on Day One of a movie's release. Period. I don't miss out on part of the world or the setting because I didn't watch the movie in 3-D. That is not true of video game D1DLC.

[Sanunes]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

If its about seeing a movie in Theaters when Star Trek Into Darkness was first released my local theater had it showing on four screens, one was 2D, two were for 3D, and one was in iMax 3D. All charged different prices for different options. The 2D showing was $12, the 3D showing was $15, and the iMax 3D was $19.

As I just said - all aesthetics/creature comforts. Equivalent to extra skins that make your characters look different or weapons that make the first few levels more simple than the standard equipment.

There is no extra story content on Day One of a movie's release. Period. I don't miss out on part of the world or the setting because I didn't watch the movie in 3-D. That is not true of video game D1DLC.

I think the problem with the Day 1 DLC arguement is that its all about a person's perception, for I know people that consider 3D a mandatory part of the film.  The arguement they use is that almost all the 3D movies created now are shot to be presentated in the 3D format and that is how the director sees the film while they are creating it.

[Sanunes]

Fandango9641 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...
So you think that's what I was asking for eh? I must be way more suggestive than I ever realised (the thought never crossed my mind, that's for sure). Well done.

You said:

How about none of those things [in reference to a post discussing leaving in Javik's animations in for free, but making his mission and cutscenes paywalled] and instead mirror what they did with Shale?

Mirroring what they did with Shale would mean cutting the content, and then offering it back for free as a way to reduced used games sales. 

Aye, that's what I'm advocating. I've no issue with Bioware protecting themselves from the used game market, but that's not what we saw with ME3 is it?

If multiplayer was added at the 13th hour, the plans for the Day 1 DLC might have been the same as Mass Effect 2, being part of Project $10.  The catch of course is that since they added the multiplayer aspect the Project $10 became paid DLC across the board.

[Fast Jimmy]

Sanunes wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

If its about seeing a movie in Theaters when Star Trek Into Darkness was first released my local theater had it showing on four screens, one was 2D, two were for 3D, and one was in iMax 3D. All charged different prices for different options. The 2D showing was $12, the 3D showing was $15, and the iMax 3D was $19.

As I just said - all aesthetics/creature comforts. Equivalent to extra skins that make your characters look different or weapons that make the first few levels more simple than the standard equipment. 

There is no extra story content on Day One of a movie's release. Period. I don't miss out on part of the world or the setting because I didn't watch the movie in 3-D. That is not true of video game D1DLC.

I think the problem with the Day 1 DLC arguement is that its all about a person's perception, for I know people that consider 3D a mandatory part of the film.  The arguement they use is that almost all the 3D movies created now are shot to be presentated in the 3D format and that is how the director sees the film while they are creating it.

That is their prerogative. But you don't need to see the movie in 3-D to talk to them about it, do you? They won't be referencing scenes that you didn't see or characters you didn't meet. 

That is not (at all) true of Story D1DLC.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 27 juillet 2013 - 04:52 .

[Realmzmaster]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Sanunes wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

If its about seeing a movie in Theaters when Star Trek Into Darkness was first released my local theater had it showing on four screens, one was 2D, two were for 3D, and one was in iMax 3D. All charged different prices for different options. The 2D showing was $12, the 3D showing was $15, and the iMax 3D was $19.

As I just said - all aesthetics/creature comforts. Equivalent to extra skins that make your characters look different or weapons that make the first few levels more simple than the standard equipment. 

There is no extra story content on Day One of a movie's release. Period. I don't miss out on part of the world or the setting because I didn't watch the movie in 3-D. That is not true of video game D1DLC.

I think the problem with the Day 1 DLC arguement is that its all about a person's perception, for I know people that consider 3D a mandatory part of the film.  The arguement they use is that almost all the 3D movies created now are shot to be presentated in the 3D format and that is how the director sees the film while they are creating it.

That is their prerogative. But you don't need to see the movie in 3-D to talk to them about it, do you? They won't be referencing scenes that you didn't see or characters you didn't meet. 

That is not (at all) true of Story D1DLC.

If the audience all have the same StoryD1DLC then they will be referencing the same scenes.
If one person has only the base game and the other has the base game plus the Story dlc then they may reference different scenes.
It does not change the point that both got a complete game that both were able to finish. The other person simply decide to shell out more money to get added content either in a CE edition of purchase separately. That is a choice.

[Fast Jimmy]

If the audience all have the same StoryD1DLC then they will be referencing the same scenes.
If one person has only the base game and the other has the base game plus the Story dlc then they may reference different scenes.
It does not change the point that both got a complete game that both were able to finish. The other person simply decide to shell out more money to get added content either in a CE edition of purchase separately. That is a choice.

I feel like I am running in circles here.

It is a choice, yes. Bioware has the choice to market it this way, consumers have a choice to buy it. Consumers also have the choice to express displeasure and to even express the opinion that such practices are unethical, immoral or just "wrong."

The reality of that wrongness is irrelevant. Enough people have that perception that Bioware has to operate as if they are, in fact, behaving unethically (phrasing all marketing discussion with an eye to avoid fanrage, having to address fan/consumer criticism on their policies, dealing with such PR instances as the Consumerist awards, etc.).

"Well, that's not fair. Other industries charge more for stuff - why should game developers like Bioware take flak more than a movie theater?"

Because a movie theater does not sell extra story content on Day 1 that generates a separate content experience for those who pay extra.



"...well, that's a choice! You're not against choice, are you?"

<sigh>

[Fast Jimmy]

^

Unlike a recall for a specific car, goodwill is cumulative. So goodwill lost on one game is made worse with goodwill lost on a subsequent game. 

Bioware had a LOT of goodwill leading up to 2010. There were many who thought they could do no wrong. 

The perception of Bioware in the gaming industry has, for many, gone from "Bioware game? Pre-order all the way!" to "Bioware game? I'll buy it used IF I hear good reviews." 

Will every fan act or think this way? Absolutely not. But it is going to take quite a bit of work to overcome these negative mindsets. Assuming that, say, 500,000 units of D1DLC at $10 a pop, that's $5 mil in revenue. Let's just assume that if they went with the DA:O/ME2 model of only selling the DLC to used copy owners and that drops revenue down to just 20% of that... that's a million in revenue, four million lost. 

Is four million dollars a game (again, assuming these numbers are anywhere accurate) worth all this headache and bad press? You can't convince me so, when ME3 has now become the poster boy of any article that discussed Day One DLC discussion of questionable practices.

EDIT: That's also assuming that the model of free D1DLC for new copies has no value itself. This puts both used game sales and game pirates at a disadvantage over new game buyers. If this results in even 100,000 more units sold (at $60 a pop) as New instead of Used or pirated, that's an additional $6 million, more than selling half a million DLC units. 

The math just doesn't add up to me. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 27 juillet 2013 - 07:19 .

[In Exile]

Fandango9641 wrote...
Aye, that's what I'm advocating. I've no issue with Bioware protecting themselves from the used game market, but that's not what we saw with ME3 is it?

I imagine the used game market feels very different. 

[Angrywolves]

no day one dlc releases.

[In Exile]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
The perception of Bioware in the gaming industry has, for many, gone from "Bioware game? Pre-order all the way!" to "Bioware game? I'll buy it used IF I hear good reviews."  

That's not the real cost. The real cost are the haters. This is what CPR seems to understand really well. Word of mouth is central to moving your product along, and Bioware tends to ignore that entirely. When an absolutely toxic atmosphere sorrounds a game, you're not going to be able to draw in more fans. And antagonizing your fanbase gets you there. 

And the reality is that Bioware can't address that without killing the IP and starting over. There was nothing other than DA:O2 that would have avoided a DA2 type backlash. 

DLC itself is a mixed bag product. A lot of criticism was thrown at Bioware when the plan to have a lot of DLC support for ME1 failed to come to fruition. 

[Fast Jimmy]

The reality is that, people complaining about this practice and the negative feedback isn't more valuable than the profits of day 1 dlc. Fernando Melo posted that 50% of DAY 1 DLC sales occur on Day 1, in its entire lifetime.

Also, one more thing... maybe the reason D1DLC's don't do well outside of Day 1 is that they aren't that good?

[Jonathan Seagull]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

In terms of timelines I'll say this: if people choose to believe that the devs are all lying about the development process, then there really isn't much meaningful discussion that can be had.

Really? Even when how the developer described that process turned out to be false? Even when the Community  Manager came back out months later expressing regret that they were coerced into misleading players about key aspects of a game at launch, including the nature of MP and DLC?

I'd say any discussion Bioware has that DOESN'T acknowledge that they were not as upfront and honest in the past as the could/should have been is not the beginning of any meaningful discussion. Luckily, Bioware to date has been open about their consumer trust issues leading up to DA:I. The fact that they are not discussing anything game related until they are 100% sure it will be in the game as presented is, to me, a good indicator that they will look at all areas of the game's release that draw fan criticism and mistrust, possibly even their D1DLC model.

So they now have to preface everything they say with a statement about past mistakes?  My point is that if people aren't going to believe the explanation given, and rather assume that they are simply being lied to, the devs saying "We're totally being legit now, honest!" isn't going to change that.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Source requested.

As far as I know, BioWare said 1) From Ashes was created by a separate team, and 2) it wasn't finished until after the game was in certification.

That parts of From Ashes is on the disk doesn't contradict either of those statements.

The statement that it was created by a separete team after certification is totally bogus. If a large portion of dialogue, all combat/abilities, animations and most other squadmate banter can be activated (as seen here) with a few simple keystrokes and no actual download, then how could his content have been created by a separate team after certification began? It is physically impossible.

Sure, maybe his specific recruitment quest was completed, but the concept of his character being a very key part of the main plot (and, hence, him being a companion) was part of development since very early script leaks. Couple that with the fact that he is practically a complete squadmate without having to actually download his "DLC" points to both the ascertations you made to be, at best, half-truths.

All that particular video shows is Javik being available and on your team.  Which lines up with his model, etc. being available.  Even if parts of his other dialogue and banter are also present, other parts aren't, nor is his mission.  And to address a later post, I don't consider watching his mission on YouTube and then hacking him onto your squad as a valid way to say "I basically got everything anyway."  I can watch all of Witch Hunt on YouTube and say I haven't missed anything, but that doesn't mean I should get Witch Hunt for free.

Also, in regards to teh Community Manager expressing regret in his role in questionable practices, here is one quote here.

As far as I remember, Chris' comment there was in regards to statements about the overall quality of the games and whether or not things were rushed, etc.  Not an admission that they lied about DLC development.  Which brings me back to my earlier point:  if people want to assume that the devs are just always lying about everything, I'm not really sure what kind of exchange can be had.

Modifié par Jonathan Seagull, 27 juillet 2013 - 07:31 .

[In Exile]

Fandango9641 wrote...
Perhaps, though I suspect that those who buy 'used' we feel less aggrieved at having to purchase day 1 DLC to get the full experience than those who actually supported the game by buying at launch.

That's not the attitude I've seen expressed. Anyway, thanks for helping me get a clear idea of what you're going for.

[Todd23]

Plaintiff wrote...

AutumnWitch wrote...

What was the Day One DLC for DA2? (I only discovered DA less than 2 years ago.)

Sebastian's DLC and The Black Emporium were both released on the same day that the base game was.

And the kicker is that if you preordered it early enough it was supposed to be free.  But plenty of people who preordered directly from them rather than a store like Gamestop got stiffed (me included).

But my issue with day one dlc goes beyond the extra charge for one product, or even the lack of trust Bioware has instilled in me, but the fact that for four years I didn't have Internet access.  And so I can speak from experience that content, especially free that is physically impossible to get because it HAS to be downloaded, is a huge pain in the neck.

[Fast Jimmy]

As far as I remember, Chris' comment there was in regards to statements about the overall quality of the games and whether or not things were rushed, etc. Not an admission that they lied about DLC development. Which brings me back to my earlier point: if people want to assume that the devs are just always lying about everything, I'm not really sure what kind of exchange can be had.

That statement was not about quality. It was about integrity (he was responding to a post saying Chris had none, due to the statements he had made in the past that turned out to be false).

I might also point out that Chris said he was trying to earn a better reputation by being trustworthy... because he was no longer working in the Marketing Team.

He was asked to "toe the line" on the truth and was now able to get a reprieve and re-establish his credibility NOT because Bioware had seen the error of their misleading marketing ways... but that he had been able to leave that department and go into a different role.

Does that mean that the current Marketing/PR departments are still having their employees for the line on the truth? That is an unknown question.

[Realmzmaster]

As Fast Jimmy has stated perception is a powerful thing. So if gamers perceive that Bioware has lied to them then nothing Bioware says will change that perception. So why should Bioware waste energy trying to so so? Far better that Bioware channel that energy into a excellent product with DA:I. That still will not satisfy some of the people who expected DA:O2.

I never got the perception that Bioware lied to me. I do my best to see through all the marketing hype because I been in the software industry (and now in business education) to know hype when it is offered.

The company I worked for at the time offered a basic product for purchase and several other modules to enhance the base product. Could we have offered all of that in one package? Yes we could have and increased the price.

The company instead decided to offer the base product and then priced the modules accordingly. Many times the team locked code in the standard package because we code not get that part to work, but did not remove it because we did not know what effect it would have on the overall product.

The product we shipped work as intended. The team would work on the code that we could not get to work. If we got it to work we packaged it as a module.

The consumer could then purchase just the base product or the base product and any modules they wanted.

We once got a call from a client who purchased the base product saying that one of their programmers notice some lock code on the disc and unlocked it. I asked the client did you get to work. The client said no. I told the client now you know why it was locked. The client asked if we were still working on it. I said yes. The client then said the programmer thought it might be useful and when would it be finished. I told the client it may take another week or two. The client stated let him know when it was ready. I said it would come out as a module. He stated that was fine because the client wanted to purchase it.
The client understood at launch it was not ready and was not part of the base product even though there was locked code on the disc. I simply understand the software development process.

Which may be one of the reasons Day 1 dlc does not bother me. I can choose to buy it or not.

Marketing is always there to sell the product. I simply take it with a ton of salt. I closely followed the development of DA:O and DA2. I knew that DA2 was not going to be DA:O2.

I still pre-ordered DA2. I enjoyed the game. I also understand others did not. I understand their opinions. I simply do not agree with all of them.

I look at dlc as something I can buy or not buy. I have no problem with Day 1 dlc because it is just a product that I can buy or not buy. If it comes with my pre-order or collector's edition that is fine. If not that is equally fine. If I can play the game to conclusion then the developer has delivered on what was promised. Whether I like what the developer presented is a different story.

If I did not like the game I offer my constructive criticism on what I liked and did not like.

There was dlc for DA:O and I purchased none of it (aside from the Stone Prisoner which came with my Collector's Edition). I did not get the dlc for Origins until the Ultimate edition came out and I purchased it new for $15.00 from EBay.