195 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Well, I don't think ME3 could have been any different unless it wasn't the end of the trilogy.

edit:  I do agree that RPGs benefit from having times when things aren't totally urgent.  But I wouldn't be surprised if DAI has that - though the world is going to hell in a handcart, I don't think it's doing so massively quickly.  If we're supposed to be building up an organisation, that should be spread out over a decent amount of time.

Modifié par Wulfram, 26 juillet 2013 - 07:36 .

[Kidd]

So much truth in this, though I doubt DAI will do anything but shove us straight into huge conflict. Hopefully it won't let the urgency of the plot be felt in every corner of the narrative though.

To me, the problem you're describing was much more of an issue in ME3 than in DAO. We know the darkspawn are always around but it's not hanging on us with constant reminders the way the Reaper war does in ME3. Thus it was easier for me to allow the urgency of battle to go to the back of my head instead of constantly being there.

But in ME3, things are constantly depressing and stressful, everything you do and say has to do with the war and... sure, that makes a great deal of sense. But it also makes the game very focused, discourages the appreciation of other cultures and generally makes it all feel tiring when gaming for longer sessions.

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 26 juillet 2013 - 07:39 .

[elvici]

 I absolutely know what you mean, EntropicAngel, and couldn't agree more. Hopefully the DAI devs will take more than design cues from Skyrim - the pacing and scope of the main plotline was pretty much perfect there, imho.  

[sandalisthemaker]

I see where you are coming from, but weren't people also complaining that there was no urgency behind DA2's plot, and no over-arching evil to vanquish?
I'm personally hoping the veil isn't torn from the get go. Although since we already know it will happen, that would take away from the effect if it happens partway through the game.

[Plaintiff]

If a plot is urgent, it should create a sense of urgency in the player. If, conversely, the goal of gameplay is to allow exploration, then the story should support that.

I think your fears are groundless. If anything, I'd say Inquisition is far more likely to follow the general Dragon Age trend so far, which is to have the story take place over a significant amount of time, perhaps more than is strictly necessary.

[Modius Prime]

I think the urgency was necessary in ME3. You have 2 other games where free roam was a major aspect of the game, but in ME3 the Reapers were finally invading. I think what they need to do in a game with a sense of urgency is to make the missions more 'open' and less 'point A to B'. I think a way that they could combine a sense of urgency and openness is to make the level achievable through multiple ways: you could choose which direction to go, like going to the cave, instead of taking the road - or they could just make every level like Kirkwall, but not in the same city, obviously

[phunx]

elvici wrote...

 I absolutely know what you mean, EntropicAngel, and couldn't agree more. Hopefully the DAI devs will take more than design cues from Skyrim - the pacing and scope of the main plotline was pretty much perfect there, imho.  

But there was no pacing to the main plotline? I never even finished it

[Sylvius the Mad]

phunx wrote...

elvici wrote...

Hopefully the DAI devs will take more than design cues from Skyrim - the pacing and scope of the main plotline was pretty much perfect there, imho.  

But there was no pacing to the main plotline?

Exactly.

[Fast Jimmy]

I loved ME1's version of this. We were looking for answers, not saving the galaxy. Our answers turned into saving the galaxy, but we didn't even fully understand what the Reapers were or Saren's connection to the until close to the end game.

Yes, Saren destroyed a human colony with the use of Geth and there was some connection to the death of the Protheans and the Reapers... but the weight of the situation wasn't fully felt until after you came to the end of the Krogan cloning facility. It's not until we speak with Sovereign and truly see the destructive capabilities of the Reapers and how close they are to returning do we feel the impetus of time... and by that point, there's not much left to explore anyway.




On the flip side of this, I'd like the threat of war/destruction/etc. to actually affect the gameplay. I'd like to have a choice of where to go, but with the understanding that my choice will have consequences - choose to save one town and another will be burnt. Choose to recruit one group and another may fall to the sword. Choose to chase an enemy and a base may be overrun. And so on.

Exploration and sinking into a world and its details is a big part of a game. But if the hammer of doom falling down on us the whole game is going to be a given, I'd like to see the game react to that.

Key word being REACT - not have pre-scripted events/sequences where "bad thing happens because the Fade is torn" that the player has zero input on.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 26 juillet 2013 - 08:35 .

[L. Han]

What pained me most about Mass Effect 3 is that it felt more like a fantasy/action game rather than a sci-fi game.

I don't think a shift of theme will happen in DA:I. But I can't help but to wonder...

[Foolsfolly]

ME2 did a few things really smart with their pacing.

One, as the OP mentioned, was the fact that each act of the game opened with the Illusive Man forwarding a few dossiers and then letting the player decide what to do and when to do them. This includes allowing the player to continue playing after beating the game (how else would any of us been able to talk to Legion without this?)

The second thing was having all the main plot missions other than the Point of No Return mission interrupt the Player's choices. The agency of the Main Plot is intact. You still react to the plot and the Collectors are a viable threat... all without that wonky bit of "gameplay vs fun" fight in your head that ME1 or Dragon Age: Origins has.

"I need to stop a mad man with a synthetic fleet from attacking further colonies or unleashing the extinction of the entire galaxy! ... but first I want to collect these Asari Writings and help an admiral find out what happened to his men."

Or "The Apocalypse is here I'm exactly half of the only group that can save the world. I need to build an army and corral a rogue mad general who's still fighting a dead war in his mind. But first I'd really like to help Sten find a particular sword or pick a bunch of mushrooms for people."

I love side quests but ME2's plot pacing allowed for side quests to make sense and the main plot to still have an urgency to it. DA2's attempt at striking that similar balance was destabilized by Kirkwall being as visually interesting as a shoe box. And one of the fun things about side quests is that they're off the beaten path or they're along the way of the main plot. This is undermined when every quest, main and side, take place in the same 20 maps.

Exploration is part of the equation to fun side quests, DA2 had so little exploration that by the time you go into the Fade in Act 2 you've now officially seen every map in the game.

All this being said and with an apparent demonic invasion hanging over our heads while at least two wars are being fought... I think at worst they'll go back to DA:O or ME1 pacing and you'll just have to shrug and say "But I do want to stop fighting the monsters and get that girl her teddy bear she lost."

Just because it's a game and side quests are fun.

[Fast Jimmy]

DA2's attempt at striking that similar balance was destabilized by Kirkwall being as visually interesting as a shoe box.

This isn't very fair.

A lot of shoeboxes have integrated some really cool looking designs over the years.

[In Exile]

Wulfram wrote...
edit:  I do agree that RPGs benefit from having times when things aren't totally urgent.  But I wouldn't be surprised if DAI has that - though the world is going to hell in a handcart, I don't think it's doing so massively quickly.  If we're supposed to be building up an organisation, that should be spread out over a decent amount of time.

Bioware's made it clear they're going to (effectively) redo DA:O's story structure and pacing, so I expect it will be very much like DA:O's urgency, i.e., big threat but enough time to go around and collect magic boots for farmers. 

But you know what, I bet they'd have been a LOT more okay with the lack of urgency if the game didn't restrict us to a single city. If we were allowed to explore the world a bit, like DA:O, I believe DA ][ would have been a bit better received.

I'd draw a distinction between being stuck in Kirkwall and not exploring. Skyrim. It's only 15 square miles. That's small by modern city standards. Bioware could have designed a sprawling metropolosis by that standard. 

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I loved ME1's version of this. We were looking for answers, not saving the galaxy. Our answers turned into saving the galaxy, but we didn't even fully understand what the Reapers were or Saren's connection to the until close to the end game. 

ME1s idea was good, but the execution was just stupid, because there was never any real reason to actually fly about the universe besides the clear leads you got from Udina. That was exacerbated by the fact that there was literally nothing but barren rock out there. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I loved ME1's version of this. We were looking for answers, not saving the galaxy.

ME was very similar to BG , in this respect, and was arguably BioWare's best game in terms of allowing the PC to be self-directed.

[Fast Jimmy]

ME1s idea was good, but the execution was just stupid, because there was never any real reason to actually fly about the universe besides the clear leads you got from Udina. That was exacerbated by the fact that there was literally nothing but barren rock out there. 

That's fair enough. I would have liked Hackett to have reached out to you and asked your help on more missions, perhaps with less clear locations, so it would have encouraged you to explore around. Or the missions with Admiral Karohou had been more open-ended in nature (sniff around, find out Cerberus' operation, shut it down).

That way, you would have been on Alliance business, which would make it important, but still you wouldn't have a clear "go here to this specific planet and do this specific thing." Because you're right - it makes little sense to check out all the stars and planets in a system, even if you have a mission on one specific planet in the area.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 27 juillet 2013 - 04:29 .

[duckley]

It is interesting - on the one hand I do want time to explore and contemplate and on the other hand I always find it weird that some disaster is about to happen and I am off finding some lost family heirloom for some random peasant ...or whatever. It is a hard balance I suppose.

[Wulfram]

You know that the Conduit is a way to bring back the Reapers, who wiped out the Protheans, from the very start of the open phase of gameplay. I really don't think there's much in character justification for going off on sidequests there.

edit:  For me, the geographical location of a sidequest matters a lot.  If it's on the way to wherever the main quest points, then yeah, sure, I'll do it.  If it's the wrong side of the Kingdom/Galaxy then it starts to feel stupid.

Modifié par Wulfram, 27 juillet 2013 - 04:46 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Wulfram wrote...

You know that the Conduit is a way to bring back the Reapers, who wiped out the Protheans, from the very start of the open phase of gameplay. I really don't think there's much in character justification for going off on sidequests there.

edit:  For me, the geographical location of a sidequest matters a lot.  If it's on the way to wherever the main quest points, then yeah, sure, I'll do it.  If it's the wrong side of the Kingdom/Galaxy then it starts to feel stupid.

Quests that require you to receive a quest in one area, go to another, return to the starting points, then GO BACK TO THE FIRST AREA drive me crazy. 

If I go to Denerim and get a question for the Brecillian Forest, I can swing by there during my quest, then to back to Denerim to get my update. But to then send me back to the Brecillian Forest again to complete the quest...? Why? Why do that to a player? I find traveling to an area solely to complete one side quest incredibly jarring. 

[AlanC9]

Yeah, this was bugging me last night while replaying DA:O, specifically Dagna's quest. It's two weeks to the Tower from Orzammar. That's not a problem since we gotta get back to Denerim anyway and it's more or less on the way. But blowing more weeks to go back to Orzammar, tell her, and get back to the Tower?!?

Of course, the game encourages this in other ways by having endgame-priced items in shops in Orzammar.

Modifié par AlanC9, 27 juillet 2013 - 05:57 .

[AlanC9]

EntropicAngel wrote...
Enter ME3. The game starts, right off the bat, with the Reapers arriving. It's obvious right then and there that the world is hanging on our shoulders, that time is against us. We have to drum up as much support as we can in the shortest amount of time, because this war won't get any easier. Running off and exploring would be silly in the game, just silly.

And where I felt the real problem was at was in the areas where ME3 tried to open up the ME-verse to us. I feel that's Bioware's greatest point (creating worlds with meaningful delimmas and fascinating cultures), but when they did it in ME3, it was overshadowed by the urgency of the plot. Sure, we went to Sur'Kesh, but it was only an STG facility, and we didn't have any chance to explore the Salarian homeworld, or see Salarians in their natual habitat (i.e., a city not a military/scientific base). Sure, we went to Thessia, but the entire place is being bombarded by Reapers at the time. We have no chance to appreciate, to absorb Asari culture. The plot is a sword hanging over us by a thread, keeping us moving. There's no time.

Note that this is actually an illusion caused by ME3 not having a real clock. ME1 has a far more urgent plot; while theoretically Shepard can get to the Conduit as soon as he finds it (we're talking RP, of course; in-game Saren always gets there a few minutes faster whatever Shep does), rushing to ME3's endgame is conceptually impossible since the Crucible will take months to build. There is time for flying around scanning for WAs, time for N7 missions, even time for parties.

The difference is that ME3 takes its plot seriously and ME1 does not.

[AllThatJazz]

duckley wrote...

It is interesting - on the one hand I do want time to explore and contemplate and on the other hand I always find it weird that some disaster is about to happen and I am off finding some lost family heirloom for some random peasant ...or whatever. It is a hard balance I suppose.

This. I love exploring too, but it's a real bugbear of mine that in most RPGs there is an apparently world-ending crisis looming, and yet the PC is at liberty to wander around solving everybody's minor problems while the Big Bad waits to make its move until, conveniently enough, said PC is finally powerful enough to defeat it. It was one of the problems I had with Skyrim. Storyline: WAAAAHHH, Dragons are invading!!!!1! Me: Hmmm, think I'm gonna learn me some carpentry ...

I like it when the story and the gameplay reflect one another - I thought that all three Mass Effects did it fairly well, actually. ME1 and 2 were slower paced because we, both as player and character, were unaware or not fully aware of the urgency of what was happening. We are well aware by ME3, and I thought the urgency was one of the things that worked, mostly, though a little exploration content probably wouldn't have hurt.

Neither Origins nor DA2 were brilliant for me in this regard. Origins because of the grim events vs laid back exploration thing, and DA2 because, well, there was no particular urgency to the narrative up until chapter 3, making it an ideal game in which to offer exploration content. Except there really wasn't any. Boo.

[Wulfram]

Actually, I found DA2 annoying because after act 1 there was always an urgent quest. The only way I found to get time to do companion and side quests as to avoid going home and checking my mail - that way at least Hawke didn't know that they were urgently needed by the viscount/arishok/meredith.

[AllThatJazz]

Wulfram wrote...

Actually, I found DA2 annoying because after act 1 there was always an urgent quest. The only way I found to get time to do companion and side quests as to avoid going home and checking my mail - that way at least Hawke didn't know that they were urgently needed by the viscount/arishok/meredith.

Sure, I usually left letters from Viscount/Meredith until I wanted to get on with the MQ, heh. But at least the urgency in DA2 was more of a 'various factions p!ssing each other off' variety, rather than 'The world is burning! Doom! Gloom!', the latter of which I find harder to ignore x

Modifié par AllThatJazz, 27 juillet 2013 - 06:46 .