195 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
That's fair enough. I would have liked Hackett to have reached out to you and asked your help on more missions, perhaps with less clear locations, so it would have encouraged you to explore around. Or the missions with Admiral Karohou had been more open-ended in nature (sniff around, find out Cerberus' operation, shut it down).

To be fair, Hackett does (if you don't pick up the quest elsewhere) message you and give you the quest when you land in a particular system. That was a nice touch in ME1 - you can either get the quest from Hackett or you can find it via exploration. 

It's just that aside from the Armstrong Cluster Geth Invasion line of quests, there's nothing that really makes sense plotwise. 

That way, you would have been on Alliance business, which would make it important, but still you wouldn't have a clear "go here to this specific planet and do this specific thing." Because you're right - it makes little sense to check out all the stars and planets in a system, even if you have a mission on one specific planet in the area.

I think ME1 would have worked better if the majority of the game was uncovering evidence about Saren's plot, rather than making Shepard a Spectre from the start. It could have been a more sensible 2 act story that way. 

[AlanC9]

In Exile wrote...

It's just that aside from the Armstrong Cluster Geth Invasion line of quests, there's nothing that really makes sense plotwise.

I often headcanon Shepard thinking that Saren is backing Cerberus as a fifth column to undermine the Alliance. It does help explain how Cerberus got their hands on rachni, and makes doing the Cerberus quest line reasonable-except mission 1, which you practically blunder into while searching for Liara anyway.

I think ME1 would have worked better if the majority of the game was uncovering evidence about Saren's plot, rather than making Shepard a Spectre from the start. It could have been a more sensible 2 act story that way. 

I would have liked a much later reveal of Saren's treachery, myself. To Shepard at least, maybe to the player as well.

Modifié par AlanC9, 29 juillet 2013 - 06:28 .

[Silas7]

phunx wrote...

elvici wrote...

 I absolutely know what you mean, EntropicAngel, and couldn't agree more. Hopefully the DAI devs will take more than design cues from Skyrim - the pacing and scope of the main plotline was pretty much perfect there, imho.  

But there was no pacing to the main plotline? I never even finished it

Don't feel too bad I haven't either

[Angrywolves]

To me the biggest issue with ME3 I saw was the creative license excuse Hudson tried.
He's not Picasso, Rembrandt, Monet, Matisse, DaVinci etc.
I was offended when I read that excuse and more recently offended by Priestly defending Hudson ih a Gamespot article.
Priestly's last hurrah I would guess.
If DAI bombs/fails no creative license excuses.
Bioware should admit they blew it and move on.

[Bleachrude]

It was always weird in DA:O that the Archdemon would wait for you as you pointlessly walk back and to across Ferelden....
Really...this is a world shattering danger?

[CronoDragoon]

EntropicAngel wrote...
Enter ME3. The game starts, right off the bat, with the Reapers arriving. It's obvious right then and there that the world is hanging on our shoulders, that time is against us. We have to drum up as much support as we can in the shortest amount of time, because this war won't get any easier. Running off and exploring would be silly in the game, just silly.

I meta-game too much for this to be a problem for me. I can separate gameplay into "main plot" gameplay and "everything else" gameplay. I enjoy raising golden chocobos while Sephiroth is trying to crash an asteroid into the world. I can gamble at my Suikoden castle while political schemes, ambushes, and alliances are whirling around me. Because I don't really see what one has to do with another. Games like Valkyrie Profile and Persona alter this perception by assigning static time values to each action, but the vast majority of RPGs play under the assumption that the next plot point is frozen in time until you see fit to start the content.

In other words, I can recognize that the way events play out in my games would differ drastically were this a novel, movie, or television show. Game logic is simply different.

[fchopin]

EntropicAngel wrote...

 Subtitle, Just Slow Down.

Act 1

You have not played ME1 so everything you say about Mass Effect is invalid.

[AlanC9]

Oh, sure, you can metagame around it. I'll probably end up doing Dagna's quest in my current DA:O run even though blowing a month or more walking back and forth from Orzammar is idiotic if we're talking RP.

But stuff like this makes me think that the CRPG genre itself is, well, kinda bad. Incoherent. It pretends to be about role-playing, but so much of the time it's about avoiding role-playing.

[Tootles FTW]

I completely get your point, but Dragon Age: Origins had the same sort of "imminent destruction is imminent!" plot going on for it but I felt that the story wasn't harrying me along at a pace that I couldn't enjoy. I really felt that way in ME3, though, and it served to make certain moments feel out of place or downright awkward (the Citadel DLC being the #1 example of bad timing within the narrative).

I actually felt DA2 handled the pacing very well in regards to their "main events" for each Act. Most were locked off until you reached a certain point in the narrative which allowed time for less important quests without making me feel like I was irresponsibly pausing the apocalypse so I could look for some random NPC's missing diary. Also, Hawke being Hawke made random mercenary-type quests seem more natural than, say, a member of the Grey Wardens taking time to do such petty crap...during a Blight.

[AlanC9]

Like I said upthread, that's a problem with the ME3 implementation, which should be generating a feeling of impending doom without constant urgency since the Crucible will take months to complete no matter what Shepard does. Though I'm not sure there's a design solution that some folks wouldn't find worse than what we got.

[Fraq Hound]

Tootles FTW wrote...


Also, Hawke being Hawke made random mercenary-type quests seem more natural than, say, a member of the Grey Wardens taking time to do such petty crap...during a Blight.

Nothing is so important as to prevent you from helping the commonfolk to find their missing "thing".

I mean clearly they were broken up when they lost "that"... They never thought they would see "it" again!

When people lose "Stuff"... That's when we Heroes gotta do are darndest to help them out. I mean, "those" might be the difference between life and death!

--------------------------------------------------------------

The pacing was a problem in both DA2 and ME3, but it certainly wasn't THE problem. Both of those games had a  plethora of problems. The largest of which, at least in my opinion, was that neither of them tried to give the player a satisfying conclusion to the journey.

DA2 just kinda stumbled over the finish line. Then it had a heart attack and died in the ambulance on the way to the hospital.

ME3 on the other hand, quit two thirds of the way through the race, got a sex change, and moved to Vegas where it now sings show tunes.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Bleachrude wrote...

It was always weird in DA:O that the Archdemon would wait for you as you pointlessly walk back and to across Ferelden....
Really...this is a world shattering danger?

He's not waiting.  He's marshalling his forces.

It just so happens that he's ready at exactly the same time as you are.

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

Oh, sure, you can metagame around it. I'll probably end up doing Dagna's quest in my current DA:O run even though blowing a month or more walking back and forth from Orzammar is idiotic if we're talking RP.

But stuff like this makes me think that the CRPG genre itself is, well, kinda bad. Incoherent. It pretends to be about role-playing, but so much of the time it's about avoiding role-playing.

No one is forcing you to do all the quests, Alan.  If a quest doesn't make sense for your character, don't do it.

Problem solved.

[AlanC9]

Solved? Hardly.

Sure, I can pretend there are consequences for screwing around for months. I sometimes do. But that doesn't let me forget that there aren't any consequences.

Modifié par AlanC9, 30 juillet 2013 - 05:56 .

[fchopin]

EntropicAngel wrote...

fchopin wrote...


You have not played ME1 so everything you say about Mass Effect is invalid.

What? Yes I have. Where did you get that idea from?

You said ME2 was your first Bioware game and did not mention ME1 so i assumed that you did not play the game.
 
How can you mention worries about DAI without mentioning ME1? That is where the problems started from Bioware, changes to ME2.

[ChaosMorning]

EntropicAngel wrote...
there's no time for such nonsense as visiting an Orlesian ball

It's Orlais. There's always time for a ball. That really just seems to be their culture - the Grand Game takes precedence and had since the nation's early days.

Plus David Gaider said he'd really like to see a masquerade if we go to Orlais (link) -

I'd like to visit Orlais, there's been a lot established about Orlais that I find very interesting. All I said to Mike one time was that "If we go to Orlais, I want a masquerade ball. I want a masquerade ball and dancing." [TUK: assorted laughter and cheering] The Tevinter Imperium is another possibility. That brings up the Qunari as well, but where we'll go next, it's difficult to say, but Orlais seems a likely bet."

not like that is a real confirmation or anything, but if we are going to Orlais, I'm banking on the Orlesians being as extravagant as ever, even if their capital is burning and Thedas is going to hell.

Anyways, yeah, on point with plot pacing:

I found Dragon Age II good for the kind of story it was telling, Mass Effect 2's verged on being too slow at times, but it found a happy medium, Mass Effect 3's plot, however, was extremely fast. Too fast.  Seriously, by Rannoch/Thessia I felt that the game was only at its midway point, only to realize it was nearly over. 

Modifié par ChaosMorning, 30 juillet 2013 - 05:10 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

Solved? Hardly.

Sure, I can pretend there are consequences for screwing around for months. I sometimes do. But that doesn't let me forget that there aren't any consequences.

If your characters fears the consequences, why is he screwing around for months?

[Maria Caliban]

The Witcher 2 and Dues Ex both handled this well.

You can justify sidequests if you limit the size of the environment and make it clear that important things will happen 'soon' but that it might take a few days.

[Fast Jimmy]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Solved? Hardly.

Sure, I can pretend there are consequences for screwing around for months. I sometimes do. But that doesn't let me forget that there aren't any consequences.

If your characters fears the consequences, why is he screwing around for months?

Maybe he knows there are consequences and doesn't care. Maybe he cares, but is afraid to address his problems head on. Maybe he only acts like he cares to seem the hero, but, deep down, just wants to be left alone and drink in the adoring praises of random NPCs that offer side quests.

I could see there being many cases where consequences are feared, but that fear is ignored.

But that is strictly an academic exercise.

[Fast Jimmy]

Maria Caliban wrote...

The Witcher 2 and Dues Ex both handled this well.

You can justify sidequests if you limit the size of the environment and make it clear that important things will happen 'soon' but that it might take a few days.

Not to mention most of the side quests involved areas and places you were going, directly (at least in DE:HR).

There was a side quest where an undercover cop asks you to do some checking out of something in a gang territory where you have to visit for the main plot. There was a check-up you could do for another resident in an apartment complex you had to go to.

You never had a scenario where you were in Detroit, make a special trip to Shangai (outside of the main plot), then return back to Detroit in order to complete one quest line. That's why I think it works better. If you can eliminate extraneous travel, then it all becomes understandable.