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Regarding: The Problem With ME3, and Worries for DA I

Débuté par Guest_EntropicAngel_* , juil. 26 2013 07:27

195 réponses à ce sujet

#176
LinksOcarina
Posté 06 août 2013 - 04:03

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

Ha! That's an interesting leap in logic.

Or maybe that the concepts of alternate realities, time jumping and dimensional shifts opens itself up more to esoteric thinking than does "shoot the aliens robots until their dead" until the last ten minutes of a three part video game series...?

EDIT: Regardless, you KNOW your character dies in BI. You KNOW it is for a good reason - to stop Comstock from ever existing. You KNOW that the tone of multiple realities and branching timelines is a major theme because it is the focal point of 90% of the game's content. 

ME3 had to kill Shepherd via Twitter. It had to release an Extended Cut ending to explain why the decisions you made were even worth it. And the theme of organics vs. synthetics, while reoccuring in sub-plots, was always given with the caveat that peaceful cohabitation was entirely possible, not that such a relationship inevitably led to the destruction of all life. 


I am referring to pacing and mechanical issues with the storytelling. 

Knowing the multiple realities and knowing the tone is irrelevent as an argument because that tone is consistant in Mass Effect 3 as well, and the organic/synthetic debate is one that still ends peacefully in Mass Effect 3 if you choose to do so.

not really a leap in logic at all. Its simply an observation on how both endings can be seen as weak. What you prefer is your own choice, and irrelevent to the grand scheme of things regarding game writing. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 06 août 2013 - 04:05 .

#177
AlanC9
Posté 06 août 2013 - 04:26

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

ME3 had to kill Shepherd via Twitter. 


What's this a reference to?

#178
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 06 août 2013 - 08:07

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In Exile wrote...

I think that players do buy into certain themes and ideas when they play the game that they - if there is choice and branching in the narrative - decide on themselves. ME is a great example of this. An all-paragon playthrough is all about believing that others can be redeemed and that anything can be overcome through cooperation, and that lives don't have to be sacrificed recklessly. It's the War Hero origin writ large.

When you get to the ME3 ending, that theme is just totally absent. So players might buy into the artistic choice, but developers can right that away. 


This is all wildly tangential, but I would like to point out something.

I didn't feel this way at all. The bolded is the important part--sacrificed wrecklessly.

I'm playing ME over again, just started, and I just had the conversation with Anderson about Saren. Anderson goes out of his way to point out that for Saren, civilian sacrifice is the FIRST place he goes--and Anderson makes it very plain that sacrifice is sometimes truly necessary. It just shouldn't be wreckless.

I feel ME3's ending preserved this well, even gave it additional poignancy. The true paragon hates the necessity of sacrifice--but it's necessity does not render the paragon no longer a paragon.

I actually consider it one of the better tests of true versus wannabe paragonism in the ME-verse: a fake paragon will howl about how there shouldn't be any sacrifices, while a true paragon understands that, when there is no other choice, it must be done.

#179
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 06 août 2013 - 08:15

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CitizenThom wrote...

As to ME3... I can only speak for myself... I didn't need a happy ending. I didn't expect a happy ending, although I hoped after Tchanka. But, two things, even on the first playthrough, just seemed poorly written.

First, that in the span of minutes, the Illusive Man crossed the galaxy, and subdued the entire Citadel, all of it's security forces and all of it's many refugees, which included a number of mercenaries and hardened criminals. That was worse than Kai Leng's cutscene magic at Thessia.


What do you mean, in the span of minutes? What evidence do you have that TIM was ever anywhere but the Citadel? By that I mean, how are you making the claim that he was somewhere else just "minutes" before he got to the Citadel.

And why would he need to subdue the Citadel? If you'll recall, he was indoctrinated. The Reapers let him in there.


Second, the starchild's logic failed, failed some more, and then contradicted itself. And Sheppard never had a single dialogue option to say, 'Duuuuude, Geth and Quarians are at peace.'

I expected Mission Earth to be a truly suicidal mission. I didn't expect it to end with a whimper and a string of contradicting and faulty logic.


How is that a failure? Did the collaboration of the United States and Russia in WWII somehow invalidate, by its existence, the Cold War and the potential for MAD?

Things being the way they are now doesn't mean, in any way whatsoever, that they will not change back to some inevitable origin.

I recommend The Island of Dr. Moreau.


But now. Back on topic? Yeah?

(riiiight...)

#180
Guest_Puddi III_*
Posté 06 août 2013 - 08:18

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I never thought the point of the ending was for you to buy the starkid's logic. Ultimately he was just telling you what your options are thanks to the Crucible from his own biased perspective. If you had to accept his logic then the only choice would have been Synthesis.

#181
Fast Jimmy
Posté 06 août 2013 - 08:20

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AlanC9 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

ME3 had to kill Shepherd via Twitter. 


What's this a reference to?


It was confirmed via Twitter that the "Breath" secret ending to you choose Destroy was Shepherd taking his/her last breath. As in, dying. 

All those fanfics of Shepherd crawling out of the rubble and living past the events of ME3 were declared invalid. Which makes the scene lintels to put in the game at all, really... but I'd consider that a small mistake with the endings given all the rest of the nonsense that went on with them. 

#182
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 07 août 2013 - 12:32

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Filament wrote...

I never thought the point of the ending was for you to buy the starkid's logic. Ultimately he was just telling you what your options are thanks to the Crucible from his own biased perspective. If you had to accept his logic then the only choice would have been Synthesis.


Bingo.

What matters is not whether his logic is RIGHT or not. That's up to each player to decide. What matters is whether itcould be right. If it CAN'T be right, it's broken logic. If it can be, then it is acceptable for an antagonist.


Fast Jimmy wrote...

It was confirmed via Twitter that the "Breath" secret ending to you choose Destroy was Shepherd taking his/her last breath. As in, dying. 

All those fanfics of Shepherd crawling out of the rubble and living past the events of ME3 were declared invalid. Which makes the scene lintels to put in the game at all, really... but I'd consider that a small mistake with the endings given all the rest of the nonsense that went on with them. 


Eh, what?

Are you sure it was confirmed that he was dying? I suspect you're referring to the question "Was the breath secret ending proof Shep survived?" and the answer, "Who knows? It could have been Shep's dying gasp."

Operative word being, could. I don't think they ever said one way or the other.

Do you have a link?

#183
LPPrince
Posté 07 août 2013 - 12:36

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

ME3 had to kill Shepherd via Twitter. 


What's this a reference to?


It was confirmed via Twitter that the "Breath" secret ending to you choose Destroy was Shepherd taking his/her last breath. As in, dying. 

All those fanfics of Shepherd crawling out of the rubble and living past the events of ME3 were declared invalid. Which makes the scene lintels to put in the game at all, really... but I'd consider that a small mistake with the endings given all the rest of the nonsense that went on with them. 


Link plox so I can hate that game even more

#184
Bekkael
Posté 07 août 2013 - 12:41

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LPPrince wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

ME3 had to kill Shepherd via Twitter. 


What's this a reference to?


It was confirmed via Twitter that the "Breath" secret ending to you choose Destroy was Shepherd taking his/her last breath. As in, dying. 

All those fanfics of Shepherd crawling out of the rubble and living past the events of ME3 were declared invalid. Which makes the scene lintels to put in the game at all, really... but I'd consider that a small mistake with the endings given all the rest of the nonsense that went on with them. 


Link plox so I can hate that game even more


It never happened. The breath  at the end was left up to player interpretation. Speculation for all! <_<

#185
LPPrince
Posté 07 août 2013 - 12:42

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Yeah, thats what I remember being told. It was even MORE speculation, instead of a definitive answer.

Which made me hate it even more.

#186
Bekkael
Posté 07 août 2013 - 12:46

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Yup. (and same for me) >_<

#187
Fast Jimmy
Posté 07 août 2013 - 12:57

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EntropicAngel wrote...

Filament wrote...

I never thought the point of the ending was for you to buy the starkid's logic. Ultimately he was just telling you what your options are thanks to the Crucible from his own biased perspective. If you had to accept his logic then the only choice would have been Synthesis.


Bingo.

What matters is not whether his logic is RIGHT or not. That's up to each player to decide. What matters is whether itcould be right. If it CAN'T be right, it's broken logic. If it can be, then it is acceptable for an antagonist.


Fast Jimmy wrote...

It was confirmed via Twitter that the "Breath" secret ending to you choose Destroy was Shepherd taking his/her last breath. As in, dying. 

All those fanfics of Shepherd crawling out of the rubble and living past the events of ME3 were declared invalid. Which makes the scene lintels to put in the game at all, really... but I'd consider that a small mistake with the endings given all the rest of the nonsense that went on with them. 


Eh, what?

Are you sure it was confirmed that he was dying? I suspect you're referring to the question "Was the breath secret ending proof Shep survived?" and the answer, "Who knows? It could have been Shep's dying gasp."

Operative word being, could. I don't think they ever said one way or the other.

Do you have a link?



I'm having serious trouble finding it, so now I am second guessing myself. I seemed to have pretty vivid memories of this being a pretty huge deal, but maybe time has distorted my memory on things. 

Without proof, I will retract that statement and just say I was wrong. My apologies.

#188
Huntress
Posté 07 août 2013 - 02:14

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

I'm having serious trouble finding it, so now I am second guessing myself. I seemed to have pretty vivid memories of this being a pretty huge deal, but maybe time has distorted my memory on things. 

Without proof, I will retract that statement and just say I was wrong. My apologies.


You are right, it was in one of the youtube, where if I remember some people weren't allow to ask the strong questions at the time, someone from the panel said, the last breath could be Shepard dieying, and when asked if he/she could be alive, it was left to the players to speculate--->lamê or Shît, pick one.

Shepard was killed by Bioware, in the 3 stupid ending, Red/Blue/Green.

Now all hold hands and repeat: Shepard was killed and there is no way around that.

And between us that serie is garbage.

#189
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 07 août 2013 - 02:29

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Huntress wrote...

You are right, it was in one of the youtube, where if I remember some people weren't allow to ask the strong questions at the time, someone from the panel said, the last breath could be Shepard dieying, and when asked if he/she could be alive, it was left to the players to speculate--->lamê or Shît, pick one.

Shepard was killed by Bioware, in the 3 stupid ending, Red/Blue/Green.

Now all hold hands and repeat: Shepard was killed and there is no way around that.

And between us that serie is garbage.



Shep_Lives.bik disagrees with you.

I realize that they said it could be anything, but the reason for that was to avoid being pigeon-holed into a single ending. They wanted it open to interpretation--but what happened is abundantly obvious.

#190
Genshie
Posté 07 août 2013 - 02:32

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Filament wrote...

I never thought the point of the ending was for you to buy the starkid's logic. Ultimately he was just telling you what your options are thanks to the Crucible from his own biased perspective. If you had to accept his logic then the only choice would have been Synthesis.


Bingo.

What matters is not whether his logic is RIGHT or not. That's up to each player to decide. What matters is whether itcould be right. If it CAN'T be right, it's broken logic. If it can be, then it is acceptable for an antagonist.


Fast Jimmy wrote...

It was confirmed via Twitter that the "Breath" secret ending to you choose Destroy was Shepherd taking his/her last breath. As in, dying. 

All those fanfics of Shepherd crawling out of the rubble and living past the events of ME3 were declared invalid. Which makes the scene lintels to put in the game at all, really... but I'd consider that a small mistake with the endings given all the rest of the nonsense that went on with them. 


Eh, what?

Are you sure it was confirmed that he was dying? I suspect you're referring to the question "Was the breath secret ending proof Shep survived?" and the answer, "Who knows? It could have been Shep's dying gasp."

Operative word being, could. I don't think they ever said one way or the other.

Do you have a link?



I'm having serious trouble finding it, so now I am second guessing myself. I seemed to have pretty vivid memories of this being a pretty huge deal, but maybe time has distorted my memory on things. 

Without proof, I will retract that statement and just say I was wrong. My apologies.

They said the same thing at Comic-Con the year they revealed the first dlc. It was a joke at the expess of the fans for asking questions about the ending. (They didn't want to be hounded by the same questions only focusing on the ending since that wasn't what the panel was for)

Modifié par Genshie, 07 août 2013 - 02:34 .

#191
Iakus
Posté 07 août 2013 - 03:16

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Edit:  NVM, this isn't a Mass Effect thread

Modifié par iakus, 07 août 2013 - 03:43 .

#192
CitizenThom
Posté 07 août 2013 - 03:29

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EntropicAngel wrote...

Filament wrote...

I never thought the point of the ending was for you to buy the starkid's logic. Ultimately he was just telling you what your options are thanks to the Crucible from his own biased perspective. If you had to accept his logic then the only choice would have been Synthesis.


Bingo.

What matters is not whether his logic is RIGHT or not. That's up to each player to decide. What matters is whether itcould be right. If it CAN'T be right, it's broken logic. If it can be, then it is acceptable for an antagonist.


It could only be broken logic. I'm all for a contrarian point of view 'because art', but only if that contrarian view doesn't fall on it's face so hard.

#193
In Exile
Posté 07 août 2013 - 03:54

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Edit: Just cut out all my ME3-related talk, nothing to see here.

Modifié par In Exile, 07 août 2013 - 04:05 .

#194
In Exile
Posté 07 août 2013 - 03:59

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Edit: Just cut out all my ME3-related talk, nothing to see here.

Modifié par In Exile, 07 août 2013 - 04:05 .

#195
Angrywolves
Posté 07 août 2013 - 04:00

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Hey we all know the ME3 endings were bad.
Time to get back to DAI.

#196
CitizenThom
Posté 07 août 2013 - 04:54

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But do we agree that Red Dead Redemption's ending was great?

But yeah, back to the Inquisition... I think the OP has it right, pacing matters, exploring matters, narrative matters. All three matter, one shouldn't be squished for the sake of the other two.

Modifié par CitizenThom, 07 août 2013 - 04:55 .

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