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[Foolsfolly]

Ever notice that blood magic and lyrium tends to turn people insane? There has to be a connect there. And while I must admit some ignorance in this subject matter I will offer a small hypothesis (I really just have the two games, all the DLC, and that Seeker movie which probably isn't the greatest source of anything DA related to go on. None of the books or comics.)

If you can poke holes in my hypothesis, go ahead! If you have your own theories, I'd love to hear them.

So both Lyrium and Blood Magic cause insanity. In both cases this isn't always true. Some dwarves can use lyrium their whole lives and be sane; other dwarves become a little eccentric due to exposure. But according to the Dragon Age wiki even with their fabled  resistance open cuts exposed to lyrium still adversely affects them.

Then there are blood mages who use blood magic and do not fall: Merrill might be obessive to bring back the glory of the elves but she isn't terribly insane and Jowan's a bit of a ****-up but none of his problems stem from a mental corruption.

I can't identify what exactly marks one to be resistant to corruption from either lyrium or blood magic: that's not the goal of this thread. But the fact that there is corruption tied to these elements cannot be denied.

The Dwarves worship the Stone and believe the dead return to the Stone. Blood is the life force of all who live. Often times we've seen red colored Lyrium even in Dragon Age: Origins. The addition of actual Red Lyrium in Dragon Age 2 is interesting in part because that's the color of blood and the veins of Lyrium spiraling throughout the ground, in some cases it even looks like it's sprouted out of the ground or even sections of the Deep Roads as though it were living and growing.

There's also the fact that the dwarves of the Primeval Thaig worshiped a Red Lyrium idol. And it's been commented on time and time again that lyrium 'sings'. And while many sources credit Blood Magic to the teachings of demons, lyrium doesn't seem to exist as it does in the Fade. Justice is amazed by it and wishes other spirits could hear it sing.

Blood of all kinds also seems to power people: dragon blood make Reavers (which also seem insane) and Archdemon Blood (Corrupted Old Gods) make Grey Wardens (which also drives them insane). And while no one could actually call it 'empowering' darkspawn blood corrupts and twists people it comes into contact with.

All this preamble is to say one thing:

Lyrium is something's life force. Be it Thedas's life force (since beings from the Fade cannot preceive it as well as mortals or near-mortals as Justice may be) or some construction of some kind.

And it comes from the dwarves... or possibly the elves. Lyrium predates the Tevinter Magisters at any rate and the Primeval Thaig predates the Blights by a good long time. And the dwarves are great at manipulating lyrium, hell even the Memories (records of everything dwarven) are somehow recorded in lyrium.

...an aside, Dwarves can't enter the Fade, Lyrium sings... I wonder if the Stone is some kind of opposite force or being to the Fade? Hmm... impossible to say and highly unlikely.

In any event, I believe Lyrium based magic is still magic drawn from a similar force: Life Energy. Just one more acceptable probably due to politics with the Imperium.

::edited to fix some horrible spelling::

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 26 juillet 2013 - 10:50 .

[Foolsfolly]

And perhaps that madness is due to the life force "souls" of others inhabiting the body of the affected? Darkspawn blood twists people into hearing the Archdemon's mind, the Reavers seem to worship dragons after drinking dragon blood (and dragons seem to accept them as their own or at least allies).

...something to think about.

[Foolsfolly]

Just played the Deep Roads mission.

The lyrium, especially red lyrium, definitely grows. As the idol would seem to suggest in the fact that it gained enough mass to lose a chunk and still turn into a great sword.

Also the Profane talk about eating lyrium which is a practice talked about a few times but especially by Varric's act two mission with Bartrand's estate. Perhaps Profane were once dwarves that have eaten so much lyrium they've... transmuted into stone? They have energy-spines at least.

No answers. Just observations.

[Volus Warlord]

You mage pansies need to man up and huff some lyrium.

[dragondreamer]

I never got the impression that blood magic itself makes mages insane. More like insane mages are more likely to use blood magic. I would say the same of Reavers. The Grey Wardens go insane because of the Taint.

Andraste sang, lyrium sings, the Old Gods sing... Creator forces, real or imitated, for better or worse.

Lyrium and the Old Gods seem to have that Lovecraftian thing going on where exposure to higher powers is too much for mortal minds to handle. I've wondered if the the red lyrium is suggesting that there's more than one source/god at the top rung of Thedosian cosmology. Or some kind of duality. So yeah, I agree that lyrium, the blue variety at least, is probably emanating from some ultimate source of reality, and I think whatever it is can be found in the Black City.

Both red lyrium and blue lyrium cause insanity/death, but red lyrium also causes extreme aggression and transformation, which we haven't seen with blue lyrium. It also seems to be much more potent, affecting even dwarves easily. I actually got the sense from the way the idol targeted Varric that there's some special connection between the dwarves and red lyrium. I feel like there's definitely something very important in the history of the dwarves that they've forgotten, probably intentionally. Interesting idea about the Stone... I'm still not quite sure what to think about what the Stone is. But the idea that red lyrium could be an emanation from their own source is very intriguing. Could also explain why blue lyrium has limited effect on them. And if red lyrium is rare or source sealed, that could also explain why they can't dream or do magic. Their own version or layer of the Fade is locked away. (Also interesting that it's implied and also shown with Bartrand that they're compelled to eat lyrium, which causes them to turn to actual stone. The dwarves say they come from the Stone, and red lyrium has a strong association with rock.)

I'm not sure why the dwarves would have a completely separate Fade from everyone else, but maybe we just haven't seen everything yet. The elves are very adaptable, and it might be that they're currently using the same Fade as humans because of that. If the elves were originally connected to another layer of reality (like the one Morrigan says their Eluvians connected to), that could potentially explain the real reason elves lost their immortality; according to the Dalish lore, all elves could once use magic, meaning they were all closely connected to the Fade. Maybe whatever properties that particular source possessed made them immortal. Eh, I dunno, but it's an idea. Maybe there's green lyrium out there, haha.

Maybe it's part of the fabled war of the gods that the Dalish lore implies. In ancient times the Old Gods may have tainted the Stone, and then with the Tevinters' help they tainted Elves' source. Each time the Fades were sealed away to prevent the corruption from spreading. The most recent blow being the attack on the Golden City, and the fallout from that continues.

But what if it was all fixed somehow? The Fades unlocked? It would sound like Sandal's prophecy, the magic returning, and everyone going back to the way they were...

Okay, I think that's enough speculation/fanfiction from me for the moment.

[Cimeas]

I think there's almost definitely got to be a link between Lyrium and Blood Magic.

[Foolsfolly]

Another random thought I just had (replaying the second game just got to act 2). The ending isn't something I like to remember or even count as canon, which is weird, I know.

But Meredith totally turns into lyrium/stone. And in Legacy Corypheus has parts of his body, especially on his face, that have turned to stone. Again, much like the Profane who we know eat lyrium.

[In Exile]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Another random thought I just had (replaying the second game just got to act 2). The ending isn't something I like to remember or even count as canon, which is weird, I know.

But Meredith totally turns into lyrium/stone. And in Legacy Corypheus has parts of his body, especially on his face, that have turned to stone. Again, much like the Profane who we know eat lyrium.

Meredith doesn't just turn into stone. She becomes a figure identical to the idol itself, but larger. 

[Foolsfolly]

Thanks to my replay...Bartrand on the idol:

'Idol not statue. It wants to be worshiped."
"She (Meredith) won't feed it -- not like I did."

[andy6915]

Lyrium IS alive. It literally feeds on corpses, it's why Dwarves know their ancestors live on because they live on inside the lyrium that absorbed them. "Let the stone take you" is literal, it's asking the lyrium to absorb the body and essence of the body. Red lyrium is probably lyrium that is oldest and thus has had the most time to absorb the most life force, which would explain why it's further down than blue lyrium (typically older stuff is further down in archeology and paleontology) and is far more potent (and mentally lethal). Lyrium is alive and thinking, it's why it sings to people who can hear it like dwarves and fade spirits, it's why the Ancestors of Dwarves are considered still around, it's why lyrium protected Orzammar by guiding the Crosscut drifters to a large Darkspawn horse with its song and knowing they were following the sound. It's why the Gangue Shade exists, it's a literal infection or corruption that destroys lyrium and the Legion of the Dead is tasked with destroying it any time it starts to be too infectious. It's both scary in that it's a thinking organic matter that has a mind of its own and absorbs people and animals both but is also good because it actually does try to protect the dwarves in its own way, and does in fact have all the minds of all the dwarves who have ever died inside it adding to its own mind.

Lyrium is the blood and mind of the stone, fed with the lives of the people who die in the stone.

Modifié par andy69156915, 04 août 2013 - 02:12 .

[Hilarystamp]

The thought that lyrium is alive and feeds is very interesting. It would also explain why there is so much power that comes from it. But there has to be more to it. Some kind of entity behind it maybe? But if lyrium comes from stone why does it affect humans, elves, etc. but not the dwarves. They are the only ones who have a connection to the stone.

[andy6915]

Hilarystamp wrote...

The thought that lyrium is alive and feeds is very interesting. It would also explain why there is so much power that comes from it. But there has to be more to it. Some kind of entity behind it maybe? But if lyrium comes from stone why does it affect humans, elves, etc. but not the dwarves. They are the only ones who have a connection to the stone.

That actually makes sense that they would be mostly immune. They're in the Earth itself, surrounded by the stuff 24/7 because lyrium is everywhere underground, and they have a biological sense of it to the point where they can literally sense it enough to follow a trail of it. They can sense it, which means their body is already adapted to it so of course they would have tolerance to it. Their very biology is designed to sense and handle lyrium.  Interestingly, dwarves lose their lyrium sense really easily. A dwarf on the surface only a few years lose their sense of it (stone sense), and dwarves born on the surface never have the ability to begin with. It's never said if they lose their tolerance to toucning it too, or if it's just the extra sense that they lose.

Hm... Wonder if nugs and deepstalkers have a similar sense and tolerance for it?

[Hilarystamp]

Could be.......but if the lyrium is absorbing the lives of dwarves then how is it connected to other races, and mages? Where did the need for it come from. There has to be a stronger power behind it. The mind that controls it. And why would dwarves just forget important information like that?

[andy6915]

Who said there has to be a power behind it? It's a sapient creature that breaks down and absorbs life and knowledge into itself, but that doesn't mean it couldn't have evolved on its own. It's pretty much just a freaky parasite that has mind altering properties and has tons of energy (from everything it absorbs) that people can extract from it. Though I guess it is interesting to think there might be a central entity (brain if you will) somewhere in the center of the planet or something... But I doubt it. And it's not really connected to the other races. Sure they can exploit and use it too through careful methods, yet a single drop of the stuff on bare skin makes non-dwarves bleed out of every pore in their body and suffer a horrible death. Dwarves can literally get it in the blood and only become a bit senile. Big difference in the danger level.

Honestly, the stuff reminds me of phazon from the Metroid Prime Trilogy. Phazon also absorbed corpses, had tons of exploitable energy and uses, both were actually sapient and organic lifeforms... Considering how scary phazon became, it's a little worrying. However, seeing as it has tons of dwarven ancestors adding morality and ethics to it and it has directly guided dwarves to save the city before, I don't think we have to worry about it turning evil. Well, the high up blue lyrium anyway. The older redder lyrium is seemingly a lot more malevolent and brain frying.

The thing I really don't know is, what is the connection between the lyrium in the fade and the lyrium in the real world? Maybe fade-lyrium does similar, it just absorbs all the bodies and memories of fade creatures (spirits and demons).

[Todd23]

There may be no connection at all. Lyrium within the fade may just be the interpretation of how dreamers view lyrium.

[NRieh]

Red lyrium is probably lyrium that is oldest and thus has had the most time to absorb the most life force, which would explain why it's further down than blue lyrium

Like dragon. Or Old Gods (which are believed to teach people magic, afair), or old magister's. Or those slaves that were sacrificed once to cross the Veil.

It never occured to me, how much similarities are there between blood and lyrium. So, probably you have some point.

I'm not sure about sapient part, though. Even if lyrium is sort of 'refined energy', I don't think it has a mind of it's own. It's more like Something can possibly control it.

. They can sense it, which means their body is already adapted to it so of course they would have tolerance to it. Their very biology is designed to sense and handle lyrium.

But we had that dwarven merchant in DAO (can't remember his name), he was sort of crazy, and he said that was because of lyrium.

Lyrium within the fade may just be the interpretation of how dreamers view lyrium.

But why would one dream of lyrium in the Fade at all? I mean other than mages or templars. Cousland rogue warden could see them and use them, I doubt (s)he knew a lot about lyrium before, not enough to have dreams about it in the Fade, imo. And dwarves do not actually dream at all, whyle they see those too, but they can't use them. I know that this is, probably, where lore does not go well together with game-mechanics, but why restricting dwarves then?..

Modifié par Nrieh, 04 août 2013 - 08:32 .

[Foolsfolly]

andy69156915 wrote...

Lyrium IS alive. It literally feeds on corpses, it's why Dwarves know their ancestors live on because they live on inside the lyrium that absorbed them. "Let the stone take you" is literal, it's asking the lyrium to absorb the body and essence of the body. Red lyrium is probably lyrium that is oldest and thus has had the most time to absorb the most life force, which would explain why it's further down than blue lyrium (typically older stuff is further down in archeology and paleontology) and is far more potent (and mentally lethal). Lyrium is alive and thinking, it's why it sings to people who can hear it like dwarves and fade spirits, it's why the Ancestors of Dwarves are considered still around, it's why lyrium protected Orzammar by guiding the Crosscut drifters to a large Darkspawn horse with its song and knowing they were following the sound. It's why the Gangue Shade exists, it's a literal infection or corruption that destroys lyrium and the Legion of the Dead is tasked with destroying it any time it starts to be too infectious. It's both scary in that it's a thinking organic matter that has a mind of its own and absorbs people and animals both but is also good because it actually does try to protect the dwarves in its own way, and does in fact have all the minds of all the dwarves who have ever died inside it adding to its own mind.

Lyrium is the blood and mind of the stone, fed with the lives of the people who die in the stone.

I love this post because it means I have to go reading a bunch of codex entries I can barely remember from a few years ago. This is good. I like this.

Later you asked why anything had to be connected.

Part of me agrees. There's no reason for anything to be connected. Few things are interconnected in real life in such a deep manner. And, frankly, I've never been one to ever give any conspiracy theory any thought.

But this is fiction. Fiction has plot. Fiction is escapism. The real world is disconnected, vague, and terribly paced. There's little to no catharsis, and the meaning of anything is... specualtive.

Fiction is full of catharsis. Fiction loves connections. Fiction has a story to tell us and stories have meaning, direction, and surmountable opposition.

So in fiction I usually fall on the side that sees conspiracies. Because fiction's better written than real life. That's why I'm looking for a connection between lyrium and blood.

[andy6915]

Nrieh wrote...

I'm not sure about sapient part, though. Even if lyrium is sort of 'refined energy', I don't think it has a mind of it's own. It's more like Something can possibly control it.

It led dwarves to save Orzammar.

"We found trouble all right. Rogan's lyrium vein led right to the flank of a darkspawn horde. From the look of their kit, the spawn were a week, maybe less, from breakthrough into that blasted new highway under Orzammar, and  they'd be well behind any patrols. The Stone knew. She knew, and she drew her chosen with a promise of ore we could taste in our bones. if all goes well, losing this cavern will kill the darkspawn's taste for digging, and Orzammar will never know it was at risk. We'll be a distant tremor, a ripple in the royal fountain. The charges are laid. We know it will work and we know the cost. The Stone has shown us the way home.

--From the journal of Brunar, founding fellow, Crosscut Drifters."

They could be wrong or just making a connection that isn't there, but I believe them. The lyrium knew of those Darkspawn and used its song and the dwarves senses to guide them to it to warn them so they could do something about it. That is the actions of a thinking creature.

Nrieh wrote...
But why would one dream of lyrium in the Fade at all? I mean other than mages or templars. Cousland rogue warden could see them and use them, I doubt (s)he knew a lot about lyrium before, not enough to have dreams about it in the Fade, imo. And dwarves do not actually dream at all, whyle they see those too, but they can't use them. I know that this is, probably, where lore does not go well together with game-mechanics, but why restricting dwarves then?..

It is interesting, isn't it? Lyrium has a strong connection to the fade, yet the ones who are most adapted to lyrium have absolutely no connection to the fade. Very interesting.

I really hope Bioware explains lyrium fully in a future game. The stuff is facinating.

Modifié par andy69156915, 04 août 2013 - 06:13 .

[NRieh]

The lyrium knew of those Darkspawn and used its song and the dwarves senses to guide them to it to warn them so they could do something about it. That is the actions of a thinking creature.

Don't you think that those were more something like religious metaphors? Stone and everything related to it is sort of sacred to Dwarves, no? Like, andrastian could've told that 'the Maker guided our steps' (or something like that). That would not literally mean that the Maker personally pushed some invisible buttons on his gamepad, would it?

What exactly that 'sense of stone' is and how it works - hard to say. We could see Utha using it in 'Calling'. But (as I understand) we don't have indications that lyrium is involved here.

I really hope Bioware explains lyrium fully in a future game. The stuff is facinating.

Problem is, that some things are so very easy to break. I love all the DA Magic and Fade-related lore so far, but that's partly because there are a lot of things left as an enigma, left for your own interpretation. I'm not sure, that everyine will enjoy the 'official' version, be it revealed.

It's so easy to turn this subtle and somewhat unique part of the DAU into some generic Big Good vs Big Bad fantasy story.

[andy6915]

Nrieh wrote...
Don't you think that those were more something like religious metaphors? Stone and everything related to it is sort of sacred to Dwarves, no? Like, andrastian could've told that 'the Maker guided our steps' (or something like that). That would not literally mean that the Maker personally pushed some invisible buttons on his gamepad, would it?

What exactly that 'sense of stone' is and how it works - hard to say. We could see Utha using it in 'Calling'. But (as I understand) we don't have indications that lyrium is involved here.

No, it is lyrium sense. Oghren makes a comment when you go into the sacred ashes temple.

"The lyrium veins in these walls are richer and purer than any I've
sensed in a while. It's doing things... changing this temple and
everything in it."

He not only can sense it all around, but he can even sense to quality of it. How can you say "we don't have indications that lyrium is involved here" about their stone sense knowing this? Dwarves stone sense is a lyrium sense, and they use it to know where lyrium is and how quality it is and they use those senses to know the best places to mine. It's why only dwarves can lyrium mine as well as they do, other races have to go in blind, a dwarf can literally follow it through the walls and floor and ceiling and know exactly where it is and how good it is. They are walking lyrium detectors. Don't tell me the stone sense isn't lyrium sense because we know it is just that.

sidenote- Notice how Oghren calls it a "vein"? Even the dwarves see the similarity between blood and lyrium.

Modifié par andy69156915, 04 août 2013 - 08:08 .

[Annihilator27]

I wonder if Red Lyrium will appear again.

[andy6915]

Annihilator27 wrote...

I wonder if Red Lyrium will appear again.

I would say count on it... But Bioware has a habit of dropping plot threads. However, the DA team seems to be better about not doing that then the ME team was.

[Foolsfolly]

andy69156915 wrote...

Annihilator27 wrote...

I wonder if Red Lyrium will appear again.

I would say count on it... But Bioware has a habit of dropping plot threads. However, the DA team seems to be better about not doing that then the ME team was.

I'd bet it will be picked up again. In part because the whole Primeval Thaig, Red Lyrium, and the entire ending of DA2 would mean nothing if it doesn't lead somewhere. Maybe not in DA3... but it has to lead to something. Otherwise... it's just there to make Meredith a demi-god and insane to the point of ridiculousness. Because everyone that makes the finale work has to have a spirit or lyrium to make them go crazy.