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Romancing Alistair - Best Possible Ending?


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#26
ladyiolanthe

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Faerunner wrote...

ladyiolanthe wrote...

My hardened Alistair seemed pretty sure about wanting to become king! And he pretty vehemently states that he can't stand the idea of Anora being on the throne. He is described in the epilogue to adore his Warden wife.


No offense, but I never saw that. I was planning on making him a hardened king in one playthrough but still felt guilty about making him something he doesn't want, so my Warden kept questioning him about the throne to get some sign that he might want it. No such affirmation. (Thankfully, after letting him fight Loghain, Eamon declared he was king on the spot, so I was off the hook.)

Not wanting Anora on the throne =/= wanting the throne for its own sake.


No offense taken.  :) I'm hard to offend. It may be that we read different cues from the words being spoken, the way Steve Valentine speaks them, and the expressions Alistair is animated with during the conversation.  Or maybe DA:O has many more onion layers than most of us realize, and you and I did something differently earlier in the game. This video shows pretty much the responses I got from him.  :)

  (Go to 2:23 to skip the duel with Loghain and his death)

Modifié par ladyiolanthe, 01 août 2013 - 11:13 .


#27
sylvanaerie

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I had many different endings, but my favorite was my Surana who romanced Alistair, made him king, and ended up his mistress at the end. I also am fond of my HNF who romanced him and married him at the end. Thanks to Dahlialynn for her lovely wedding mod, I got to actually see the nuptials at the end. My Dalish left Anora on the throne, and it felt perfectly normal to me to do that. She grew up with a female Keeper and was raised by an elder elf woman, so was used to strong women in charge. And she didn't like Eamon or his attitude, felt he was USING Alistair to get to the power of the throne.

All three endings had mention during DA2. Grey Warden Alistair mentions 'the love of his life', married King Alistair refers to his bride as 'the old ball and chain' but that is said jokingly and with affection, and IMO the mistress gets the sweetest Teagan/Alistair banter of the three...though all are expertly performed by S.Valentine and just melted my heart to hear them.

My advice is play through what however you would like. If it feels right to you, the ending will be happy. Though, without giving away spoilers, some aren't so happy if you make certain choices.

#28
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ladyiolanthe wrote...

No offense taken.  :) I'm hard to offend. It may be that we read different cues from the words being spoken, the way Steve Valentine speaks them, and the expressions Alistair is animated with during the conversation.  Or maybe DA:O has many more onion layers than most of us realize, and you and I did something differently earlier in the game. This video shows pretty much the responses I got from him.  :)

  (Go to 2:23 to skip the duel with Loghain and his death)


"Different cues from the words being spoken" is right. I'm sorry, but I still got really strong "I really don't want to do this... I really don't want to do this... I really don't want to do this... *sigh* but if I HAVE to, if no one else can, if I am the only option, then I'll... ugh... do it... *holds in stress-induced vomit*"

The only time Alistair expresses any certainty in wanting the throne is, again, after you consider crowning Anora. Even then, it's not about wanting the crown so much as wanting to keep the crown away from her. "Make me king. Anora isn't an option." It seems to me like if there were any other option, Alistair would latch on like a barnacle to a rock. 

But, then again, he does express certainty when you ask, and you do question him about his certainty, so it's fair given the circumstances.

#29
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@Faerunner
And again, I say out of those two options, I think he would be happy either way. Again, I agree with you, but that's not what I'm saying.
Eeeeh, I'm probably just being antagonistic again. I have a tendency to be contentious and play advocatus diaboli. XP

#30
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DeadlyHaven wrote...

@Faerunner
And again, I say out of those two options, I think he would be happy either way. Again, I agree with you, but that's not what I'm saying.
Eeeeh, I'm probably just being antagonistic again. I have a tendency to be contentious and play advocatus diaboli. XP


Sorry, I tend to get mule stubborn about subjects I care about too.

I'm also not trying to say I think being king would make him miserable per se. It's just the OP asked which would be the best ending when romancing Alistair. From a purely romantic perspective, I think that choosing the ending that makes him happiest as an individual and lets the two remain free together as Grey Wardens is the best one.

From a societal perspective? I agree that it gets grey. My City Elf Warden lived to help her people but couldn't bring herself to crown her love against his will because a) like your Dwarf Commoner, she knew first-hand much it sucks having your life dictated by your blood (was also mistreated by human nobles growing up just like Alistair) and B) felt that forcing him into royalty was no better than slavery, which she was vehemently against after dealing with Loghain.

But, yeah, in the long run... Alistair would have done WAY more to help the elves than Anora and the Warden would have accomplished way more for her people as Bann of the Alienage. But then Alistair would have broken up with her the minute she crowned him. Hardening and remaining a mistress would never work because a) she would never say that to him in the first place, B) she would have dumped him long before the Landsmeet because she would have hated his hardened personality.

Again, from an interpersonal "the two are in love together" perspective, I think the Grey Wardens are best. I agree that in other regards though, there are mitigating circumstances.

#31
ladyiolanthe

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Faerunner, fair enough. I read a lot more certainty into what he's saying, even before the Warden questions Anora. He's even smiling (confidently, is my impression) a bit when he answers her first question. "I can do this!" etc. :)

I wonder how much our origins colour our perspective on things? I was playing as a F!Cousland, whose parents' last words to her were "do your duty to Ferelden", and "do the right thing". So, I picked up a lot on Alistair's desire to do good by Ferelden, (throughout the game), and maybe that has coloured how I interpret a hardened Alistair at the Landsmeet. You were playing a City Elf, who has experienced a lot of injustice at human hands, and, as you say, were mistreated by human nobles, like Alistair.

I'm currently working through a Dalish Elf playthrough, and finding that she is not especially impressed by human nobles, either. It makes me question some of the decisions I made as the Cousland. I also decided that stopping the romance with Alistair in favour of Zevran made a lot more sense for her, and so, with great reluctance, I did! :( Oh well, I'll get to see what the Zevran romance is all about, anyway.

All of which goes to say "Go with what feels best for your character, OP!"  :)

Modifié par ladyiolanthe, 03 août 2013 - 01:35 .


#32
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ladyiolanthe wrote...

Faerunner, fair enough. I read a lot more certainty into what he's saying, even before the Warden questions Anora. He's even smiling (confidently, is my impression) a bit when he answers her first question. "I can do this!" etc. :)


Not to worry, that's what makes it art. Two people can see the same scene and walk away with different impressions. =)



I wonder how much our origins colour our perspective on things? I was playing as a F!Cousland, whose parents' last words to her were "do your duty to Ferelden", and "do the right thing". So, I picked up a lot on Alistair's desire to do good by Ferelden, (throughout the game), and maybe that has coloured how I interpret a hardened Alistair at the Landsmeet. You were playing a City Elf, who has experienced a lot of injustice at human hands, and, as you say, were mistreated by human nobles, like Alistair.

I honestly think this is the case. Assuming you become invested in your first character, your introduction into this world is basically through their socio/economic/cultural perspective, so you end up harkening back to that impression when you seen new people, places and situations.

My character wanted to do good too, but mostly for the poor and disenfranchised (elves, mages, casteless). While she initially wanted to make Alistair king to help her people, his continued insistence that it was the last thing he wanted, coupled with how his blood dictated his miserable childhood, eventually gave her a change of heart. At the end of the day, how could she preach more choices for elves and decry Loghain's slave-trading when she wasn't even giving her own love a choice over his own life?

Plus, my character honestly believed Anora would help her people. After eloquently explaining Alistair's lack of desire and experience, Anora tops it off with: "Think of what I can do for the Grey Wardens. For your people. [Pointed ears perk up] Oh, I'm sure Alistair would give you the same offer, but answer me this: Which is worth more? The word of a weak king, or a strong queen?" My character bought it hook, line and sinker.

Well, our characters can only do the best they can with the information they have at the time, right?



I'm currently working through a Dalish Elf playthrough, and finding that she is not especially impressed by human nobles, either. It makes me question some of the decisions I made as the Cousland. I also decided that stopping the romance with Alistair in favour of Zevran made a lot more sense for her, and so, with great reluctance, I did! :( Oh well, I'll get to see what the Zevran romance is all about, anyway.


Really? Human nobles? How so?

And don't worry about your Cousland. That's part of the joy of role-playing. =)

Zevran is really awesome though. I'll admit I'm slightly more fond of Alistair too (IRL I adore sweet, dorky, awkward, funny guys over the suave seducers), but Zevran pleasantly surprised me when I decided to give him a chance. I think he might pleasantly surprise you too. =)

Modifié par Faerunner, 03 août 2013 - 05:52 .


#33
JWvonGoethe

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Neither. Refuse Morrigan's offer so that he sacrifices himself for your Warden. That's the most romantic one.

Or you could make him King and then have your Warden sacrifice herself for him (just don't bring him to the battle with the Archdemon or he will sacrifice himself.) Then he'll be forced to live out his days as the lonely king, forever embittered by the memory of his lost true love...

Or you could do what I did on my last playthough - female human noble who hated Alistair and was in a relationship with Leliana. She forced Alistair to marry herself regardless so that she could become queen-consort. She ended up married to Alistair and in a relationship with Leliana. (NB: Give him gifts so that he is up to 50 approval at the landsmeet or he will refuse to marry you. Afterwards, do not speak with Leliana until the post-coronation ceremony or she will break up with you. Then speak to her at the coronation ceremony, and if she is hardened, she will agree to stay in a relationship with you.) It works fine for importing into the other games, too - in DA2, King Alistair even complains about his wife, calling her "the old ball and chain" and is teased that he is scared of the Warden Queen by Bann Teagan. Pretty sure he doesn't do that if he had a good relationship with his wife. Also, Leliana still acknowledges her relationship with the Warden in DA2 if you do this (you need the DA2 DLC to get the dialogue though.)

To make this even more perfect, wait to do Alistair's personal quest until after he becomes King-to-be at the Landsmeet. He has more dialogue with Goldanna this way, and his promises to her are a bit more substantial. Even better, you get -40 approval if you bully him and call him an idiot, which cancels out the gift-giving approval buffs.

This is why DA:O has possibly the best ending of any RPG ever made: there are so many little choices thrown in that have huge role-playing potential.

Modifié par JWvonGoethe, 04 août 2013 - 05:01 .


#34
M-Taylor

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Faerunner wrote...

I think it's better to let Anora rule alone and let Alistair remain with the Grey Wardens.

Take his feelings into consideration for a moment. He NEVER wanted to be king, and he LOVES being a Grey Warden. Also, his childhood involved people making his life decisions for him without considering what he wants (making him sleep in stables, join the Chantry, etc). One of the reasons he adores Duncan is because he feels like Duncan considered what HE wanted. Regardless of whether or not it's true, it's how Alistair feels. You want to be like Eamon: a human noble making him be something he hates because it benefits you? Or (Alistair's view of) Duncan: an awesome Grey Warden that lets him be with the Grey Wardens because a) he's good at it, B) it makes him happy?

To me, it's a no-brainer.

As for the Warden: as others have said, only the boring human noble can be queen. Who wants that? Any Warden from any background can remain with the Wardens and you two can remain awesome and badass together. Nothing like fighting darkspawn to keep the passion alive!


I agree completely with this. No matter what, Alistair always ends up staying a Grey Warden in my playthroughs.

Put yourself in your place; he has made no choices in his life. Everything has been forced and decided by other people. Being a Grey Warden was the one thing he ever really enjoyed being, and even that wasn't a choice of his own. Nonetheless, he does *choose* to stay one, and mentions continually throughout the game how much he loves being a Grey Warden.

It seems cruel to take it away from him, especially when Anora is so willing to rule.

In conjunction, it seems to contradict the Grey Warden motto for Alistair to just leave the order and rule a country. Being a Grey Warden is meant to be for life, not until something better comes a long. I mean, I may take the committment thing too far, but I think it sends a wrong message to other Grey Wardens that you can, infact, leave the order.

So it's Alistair's choice to be a Grey Warden, and it's a life long committment. All in all, I think Alistair is a happier person fighting Darkspawn. /shrug

#35
ladyiolanthe

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JWvonGoethe wrote...

...It works fine for importing into the other games, too - in DA2, King Alistair even complains about his wife, calling her "the old ball and chain" and is teased that he is scared of the Warden Queen by Bann Teagan. Pretty sure he doesn't do that if he had a good relationship with his wife..


He says the same thing if you are the love of his life, but his expression and tone suggest he means it affectionately. Now I'm curious whether they got Steve Valentine to speak this line two different ways, one for the love-match and one for the political marriage.  :)

Modifié par ladyiolanthe, 04 août 2013 - 06:56 .


#36
JWvonGoethe

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Ah well, it certainly didn't seem affectionate when I heard him say it, maybe that was because my understanding of his relationship with the Warden skewed my perception of his lines. Would be interesting if he did have two different versions of the line depending on his relationship with her. Either that or the line was simply written and delivered skillfully enough that it suited either scenario.

On the other hand, their meeting in Awakening was maybe a little too civil considering their sour relationship in DA:O, but I'll admit it was quite nice to see them finally start to get along a little bit.

#37
Merilsell

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ladyiolanthe wrote...

My hardened Alistair seemed pretty sure about wanting to become king! And he pretty vehemently states that he can't stand the idea of Anora being on the throne.


That is because he doesn't trust Anora. He sees nothing but Loghain's daughter in her and fears that the blight isn't getting dealt with properly when she keeps the throne. He has by all means no intrinsic motivation to claim the throne (like to want to honor his father's legacy, or something) It is all dictated by the circumstances at hand and outside influence. He just want to ensure that the Blight is going to be ended and if he has to be king to do so, he will. But if it weren't for LOGHAIN'S DAUGHTER being the one and only other contender than he couldn't care less for the throne, even hardened.

He is also very quick in waving the issue off, as soon Anora remains queen, and will even thank you for letting him stay a Warden after the Landsmeet (Mod is needed to restore this dialogue, tho) So it is safe to say that even on hardened Alistair's to do list becoming king is way down there. Waaaaay down. ;)