No, but the serious advocation of gleeful sociopathy certainly exists.
Making the same choices over and over
Débuté par
rafhoffmann2013
, juil. 28 2013 05:33
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#102
Posté 29 juillet 2013 - 02:26
Seboist
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StreetMagic wrote...
In any case, the more options the better, I think. The various choices in an RPG are like a palette that shapes and colors your character. Some choices are really questionable, but there's always someone who comes up with a cool reason behind them. It depends on their creativity. The more choices you take away though, the less room a player has to shape the dynamics of their character. They start becoming more and more like any other on rails action/adventure protagonist. Something that's more the product of the developers. That's cool too, but not all that cool for an RPG.
I had a Talimancer Sheploo who kept David in Project Overlord as part of his pledge to build her a house on the homeworld.
#103
Posté 29 juillet 2013 - 02:27
teh DRUMPf!!
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David7204 wrote...
Samara made a choice to accept the code.
And Morinth makes a choice to get her fix. Both could choose differently. Neither one does. What's the difference?
MACharlie1 wrote...
Morinth actually has a better excuse. Addiction is somewhat excusible (and can be fought). Fundamentalism is not.
Yeah - sorry - addiction is in no way EXCUSABLE. Understand the difference between the words "excuse" and "justification".
Sure, after you learn the purpose of an adjective.
I didn't say it was EXUCSABLE. Go back and read it again.
Also, people get off of murder in court quite often for mental issues. NAMI considers addiction a mental-illness.
Modifié par HYR 2.0, 29 juillet 2013 - 02:31 .
#104
Posté 29 juillet 2013 - 02:28
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The difference is that Samara made a good choice and Morinth made a poor one. Never do we see or hear of Samara doing anything unjustified or needlessly cruel.
Modifié par David7204, 29 juillet 2013 - 02:29 .
#105
Guest_Cthulhu42_*
Posté 29 juillet 2013 - 02:30
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Yes David, I agree that letting the quarians die is indeed a silly choice.David7204 wrote...
dreamgazer wrote...
Which renegade choices are silly again, David?
Mostly the killing of people who are clearly on your side and willing to help you. But also the gleeful excitement that comes over part of the BSN when the idea of genocide comes up. The people making elaborate and very serious arguments on why the asari or quarians or whatever need to die.
Too bad it's not the Renegade option at all; it's Paragon.
#106
Posté 29 juillet 2013 - 02:31
HellbirdIV
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HYR 2.0 wrote...
All that matters to Samara is what the 'Code tells her to do
The Code demands that she kill Falere in ME3. The Code most likely doesn't say that the Justicar should kill themselves. She makes that choice herself; Killing herself to avoid having to kill Falere because of what the Code demands of her.
I'm not defending Samara or the Justicars though, the whole concept is probably supposed to be an antiquated relic from the era of asari City States that just hasn't been questioned because "tradition". But it shows that she's not brainwashed to follow the Code no matter what - it always comes down to the choice she makes in the moment.
Cthulhu42 wrote...
Yes David, I agree that letting the quarians die is indeed a silly choice.
Too bad it's not the Renegade option at all; it's Paragon.
It makes sense in context, really. Renegade!Shep is the one who argues that machines aren't really people, whereas Paragon!Shep will tell EDI that self-aware synthetic life gets to choose just like organics.
If you side with the geth, you're saving billions of lives - if you're playing Paragon, in which case them being Synthetics does not make them less alive. If you're Renegade, geth lives don't count, so the only option is to save the quarians.
Modifié par HellbirdIV, 29 juillet 2013 - 02:34 .
#107
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 29 juillet 2013 - 02:32
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Speaking of Samara, she has a story of her own that resembles how I see Zhu's Hope. She talks about a colony that got enthralled by Morinth, and she had no choice but to put them all down. I can't say if she's a full blown Paragon.. she makes hard choices like Renegade options presented to Shepard, and she has no interest in getting to know criminals or anything. She keeps herself from sympathizing in any way. I forgot her line, but it was along the lines of "The Code's job isn't to bring enlightenment, but justice."
Modifié par StreetMagic, 29 juillet 2013 - 02:33 .
#108
Posté 29 juillet 2013 - 02:33
dreamgazer
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David7204 wrote...
The difference is that Samara made a good choice and Morinth made a poor one. Never do we see or hear of Samara doing anything unjustified or needlessly cruel.
Well, except for the entire village she destroyed.
#109
Posté 29 juillet 2013 - 02:33
Taboo
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HYR 2.0 wrote...
And Morinth makes a choice to get her fix. Both could choose differently. Neither one does. What's the difference?
The fact of the matter is is that everyone in this game has some "code" of ethics. What matters is how the individual chooses to justify their actions.
#110
Posté 29 juillet 2013 - 02:34
teh DRUMPf!!
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David7204 wrote...
The difference is that Samara made a good choice and Morinth made a poor one. Never do we see or hear of Samara doing anything unjustified or needlessly cruel.
lol.
In what world is following ancient (read: outdated) manuscripts that compel her to [vigilantism] and [plotting to massacre a police force on Illium -- in a district riddled with crime from Eclipse -- for taking orders to arrest her] a "good" choice??
Only by coincidence (Shepard's presense) did Samara not follow up on said plot.
Modifié par HYR 2.0, 29 juillet 2013 - 02:36 .
#111
Posté 29 juillet 2013 - 02:35
David7204
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dreamgazer wrote...
David7204 wrote...
The difference is that Samara made a good choice and Morinth made a poor one. Never do we see or hear of Samara doing anything unjustified or needlessly cruel.
Well, except for the entire village she destroyed.
Much like the various localities Shepard kills everyone in?
Samara says they were devoted to Morinth and fought on her behalf, I think.
#112
Posté 29 juillet 2013 - 02:35
Seboist
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David7204 wrote...
The difference is that Samara made a good choice and Morinth made a poor one. Never do we see or hear of Samara doing anything unjustified or needlessly cruel.
Yeah, she was totally justified with wanting to kill cops because they didn't want her going on a killing spree.
#113
Guest_Cthulhu42_*
Posté 29 juillet 2013 - 02:36
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Sounds a lot like my own Shepard. It's a shame Archer's research never came to fruition.Seboist wrote...
StreetMagic wrote...
In any case, the more options the better, I think. The various choices in an RPG are like a palette that shapes and colors your character. Some choices are really questionable, but there's always someone who comes up with a cool reason behind them. It depends on their creativity. The more choices you take away though, the less room a player has to shape the dynamics of their character. They start becoming more and more like any other on rails action/adventure protagonist. Something that's more the product of the developers. That's cool too, but not all that cool for an RPG.
I had a Talimancer Sheploo who kept David in Project Overlord as part of his pledge to build her a house on the homeworld.
Modifié par Cthulhu42, 29 juillet 2013 - 02:37 .
#114
Posté 29 juillet 2013 - 02:37
HellbirdIV
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dreamgazer wrote...
David7204 wrote...
The difference is that Samara made a good choice and Morinth made a poor one. Never do we see or hear of Samara doing anything unjustified or needlessly cruel.
Well, except for the entire village she destroyed.
They were mind controlled by Morinth to attack her and she killed them defending herself - hardly unjustified.
She even notes that she stayed to ensure the surviving children were turned over to the authorities. I'm not sure how that's "needlessly cruel"?
#115
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 29 juillet 2013 - 02:37
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It's funny if you think about it.
The only other character I can recall that's willing to slaughter an entire police station is Arnold in Terminator.
The only other character I can recall that's willing to slaughter an entire police station is Arnold in Terminator.
#116
Posté 29 juillet 2013 - 02:37
o Ventus
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Seboist wrote...
David7204 wrote...
The difference is that Samara made a good choice and Morinth made a poor one. Never do we see or hear of Samara doing anything unjustified or needlessly cruel.
Yeah, she was totally justified with wanting to kill cops because they didn't want her going on a killing spree.
She didn't want to kill cops. She directly tells you that she regrets having to kill detective Enaya. The entire reason she sends Shepard to go and find intel on Morinth is precisely BECAUSE she doesn't want to kill the police.
#117
Posté 29 juillet 2013 - 02:41
HellbirdIV
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StreetMagic wrote...
It's funny if you think about it.
The only other character I can recall that's willing to slaughter an entire police station is Arnold in Terminator.
Udina.
Samara adhering to the Code isn't quite compatible with the Renegade/Paragon scale (since it's a completley different kind of morality) but it strikes me as being "more Renegade". Specifically, do whatever it takes to achieve your goals.
Remember when Shepard annihilated 300.000 innocent people in a supernova to stop even more people dying in the long run?
Yeah, Samara killing ten, maybe twenty cops on her way to pursue Morinth to ensure that Morinth doesn't kill hundreds, possibly thousands of people in the future is somehow inexcusable in comparison?
#118
Posté 29 juillet 2013 - 02:41
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o Ventus wrote...
Seboist wrote...
David7204 wrote...
The difference is that Samara made a good choice and Morinth made a poor one. Never do we see or hear of Samara doing anything unjustified or needlessly cruel.
Yeah, she was totally justified with wanting to kill cops because they didn't want her going on a killing spree.
She didn't want to kill cops. She directly tells you that she regrets having to kill detective Enaya. The entire reason she sends Shepard to go and find intel on Morinth is precisely BECAUSE she doesn't want to kill the police.
It doesn't matter whether or not she wanted to kill the cops, but what matters was that she intended to do so anyway after a certain period of time.
#119
Posté 29 juillet 2013 - 02:42
BaladasDemnevanni
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o Ventus wrote...
She didn't want to kill cops. She directly tells you that she regrets having to kill detective Enaya. The entire reason she sends Shepard to go and find intel on Morinth is precisely BECAUSE she doesn't want to kill the police.
Key point being: she would have done it. It's not about what she did, so much as what she has the capacity of doing, under her strict adherence to the code.
You said it yourself; she sends Shepard to find Morinth's ship. And what if Shepard hadn't been around? When she "cooperates" with Detective Enaya, she makes it pretty clear how far she's willing to go. She may have reservations about doing it, but it will be done all the same. This is exactly why Justicars are problematic for society at large and why Asari try to confine them to Asari space (according to the codex). They're capable warriors, but their refusal to compromise is problematic.
Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 29 juillet 2013 - 02:43 .
#120
Posté 29 juillet 2013 - 02:42
dreamgazer
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HellbirdIV wrote...
dreamgazer wrote...
David7204 wrote...
The difference is that Samara made a good choice and Morinth made a poor one. Never do we see or hear of Samara doing anything unjustified or needlessly cruel.
Well, except for the entire village she destroyed.
They were mind controlled by Morinth to attack her and she killed them defending herself - hardly unjustified.
She even notes that she stayed to ensure the surviving children were turned over to the authorities. I'm not sure how that's "needlessly cruel"?
Because annihilating all those under her control as the repercussion of a gung-ho operation was the only option, right?
#121
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 29 juillet 2013 - 02:43
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Seboist wrote...
StreetMagic wrote...
In any case, the more options the better, I think. The various choices in an RPG are like a palette that shapes and colors your character. Some choices are really questionable, but there's always someone who comes up with a cool reason behind them. It depends on their creativity. The more choices you take away though, the less room a player has to shape the dynamics of their character. They start becoming more and more like any other on rails action/adventure protagonist. Something that's more the product of the developers. That's cool too, but not all that cool for an RPG.
I had a Talimancer Sheploo who kept David in Project Overlord as part of his pledge to build her a house on the homeworld.
Perfect example.
I'm always siding with Jack.. so anything Cerberus gets blown up. But neither choice is strictly Renegade or Paragon. Because there are all kinds of extenuating circumstances that give shape to things.
#122
Posté 29 juillet 2013 - 02:43
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Ravensword wrote...
o Ventus wrote...
Seboist wrote...
David7204 wrote...
The difference is that Samara made a good choice and Morinth made a poor one. Never do we see or hear of Samara doing anything unjustified or needlessly cruel.
Yeah, she was totally justified with wanting to kill cops because they didn't want her going on a killing spree.
She didn't want to kill cops. She directly tells you that she regrets having to kill detective Enaya. The entire reason she sends Shepard to go and find intel on Morinth is precisely BECAUSE she doesn't want to kill the police.
It doesn't matter whether or not she wanted to kill the cops, but what matters was that she intended to do so anyway after a certain period of time.
"Justified with wanting to kill cops".
My point is that she most certainly does NOT want to kill cops.
#123
Posté 29 juillet 2013 - 02:44
HellbirdIV
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BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
And what if Shepard hadn't been around?
I imagine the detective would have conveniently "lost" her somewhere in Eclipse territory to avoid getting killed trying to arrest her.
#124
Posté 29 juillet 2013 - 02:45
David7204
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dreamgazer wrote...
Because annihilating all those under her control as the repercussion of a gung-ho operation was the only option, right?
We don't know what the circumstances were or what the villagers actually did.
#125
Posté 29 juillet 2013 - 02:47
ShepnTali
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HellbirdIV wrote...
BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
And what if Shepard hadn't been around?
I imagine the detective would have conveniently "lost" her somewhere in Eclipse territory to avoid getting killed trying to arrest her.
Yesh, I can certainly see that scenario.
