186 réponses à ce sujet

[teh DRUMPf!!]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Remember when Shepard annihilated 300.000 innocent people in a supernova to stop even more people dying in the long run?

Yeah, Samara killing ten, maybe twenty cops on her way to pursue Morinth to ensure that Morinth doesn't kill hundreds, possibly thousands of people in the future is somehow inexcusable in comparison?

Morinth kills one person every few days. Samara kills groups of people how often while she's on Morinth's trail?

Samara keeps at it as long as Morinth is on the loose.

At that rate, the body count is a wash. It's quite possible Samara ends up killing more.

[Ravensword]

o Ventus wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Seboist wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The difference is that Samara made a good choice and Morinth made a poor one. Never do we see or hear of Samara doing anything unjustified or needlessly cruel.

Yeah, she was totally justified with wanting to kill cops because they didn't want her going on a killing spree.

She didn't want to kill cops. She directly tells you that she regrets having to kill detective Enaya. The entire reason she sends Shepard to go and find intel on Morinth is precisely BECAUSE she doesn't want to kill the police.

It doesn't matter whether or not she wanted to kill the cops, but what matters was that she intended to do so anyway after a certain period of time.

"Justified with wanting to kill cops".

My point is that she most certainly does NOT want to kill cops.

I understood you point--she doesn't wanna kill the cops--but  whether or not she wanted to kill the cops or not has nothing to do w/ the fact that she clearly intended to do so according to her code.

[o Ventus]

David7204 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Because annihilating all those under her control as the repercussion of a gung-ho operation was the only option, right?

We don't know what the circumstances were or what the villagers actually did.

Samara says that they were sacrificing their own children to Morinth.

[HellbirdIV]

David7204 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Because annihilating all those under her control as the repercussion of a gung-ho operation was the only option, right?

We don't know what the circumstances were or what the villagers actually did.

Honestly it's hardly even worth dignifying with a response. It's like suggesting soldiers are morally wrong to destroy a village full of enemy combatants... that are currently firing at them.

What do you want them to do? Run away to get some tear gas and try to subdue them non-lethally? Yeah because f**k mission parameters, let's just never kill people who are trying to kill us even if it costs us all strategic objectives!

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Morinth kills one person every few days. Samara kills groups of people how often while she's on Morinth's trail?

Most likely very rarely. The Code forbids killing innocents (the cops on Ilium are, by the Code, guilty of obstructing the Justicar's duty) so she'd most likely not kill anyone at all 90% of the time.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 29 juillet 2013 - 02:52 .

[o Ventus]

Ravensword wrote...

I understood you point--she doesn't wanna kill the cops--but  whether or not she wanted to kill the cops or not has nothing to do w/ the fact that she clearly intended to do so according to her code.

Why are you replying to me then? 

I was making a counterpoint to a patently false statement. Your response to me is irrelevant because it doesn't address what either I or my quote said.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Fixers0 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Huh? No, because the decision is dumb on its face. You've got the data; it's just stupid to throw away a capability even if it's one you don't see a need for at the moment

Perphaps from your incredibly biased and limit point of view, doesn't disprove my point though. Destroying it makes Mass Effect 3's narrative look completely idiotic

But it's good to know to that you consider destroying research that when utilized would invetibly lead to war to be a dumb choice, reminds me what kind of person I'm talking to.

Well, you know, there is the matter of a galactic genocide to consider. Some might say that would be worth holding onto the cure in the present for. What's the saying? Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it?

Besides, your incredibly biased and limited point of view doesn't dispute his point.

[David7204]

I'm not trying to portray Samara as the ultimate moral authority, nor her Code as perfect.

What I take issue with is that idea that anyone who chooses to be subservient must either be stupid or seeking to escape the consequences of their actions.

[Ravensword]

o Ventus wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

I understood you point--she doesn't wanna kill the cops--but  whether or not she wanted to kill the cops or not has nothing to do w/ the fact that she clearly intended to do so according to her code.

Why are you replying to me then? 

I was making a counterpoint to a patently false statement. Your response to me is irrelevant because it doesn't address what either I or my quote said.

Well, I think you're attempting to give Samara a pass at it being her duty to break out of custody and kill anyone who would stop her. If Shepard failed to return in time before Samara began killing the cops that were keeping her in custody, I'm sure the fact that Samara didn't want to kill any police officers would bring very little solace to the friends and familes of the police officers that she murdered whilst escaping from police custody.

[HellbirdIV]

StreetMagic wrote...

So what do you think about Zhu's Hope? I killed innocents there, but for all the reasons you just pointed out. And then some (they were enthralled).

That's kind of my point. Zhu's Hope is almost an exact match for the situation Samara got put in by Morinth.

The difference is that a non-lethal option is conveniently made available to Shepard - if it hadn't been for those gas grenades, or the fact the weakened colonists could be incapacitated with a single punch, Shepard would have had no choice but to kill all of them just to survive - the "Renegade" option in our game, but in Samara's case would be the only option.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 29 juillet 2013 - 02:59 .

[dreamgazer]

HellbirdIV wrote...

David7204 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Because annihilating all those under her control as the repercussion of a gung-ho operation was the only option, right?

We don't know what the circumstances were or what the villagers actually did.

Honestly it's hardly even worth dignifying with a response. It's like suggesting soldiers are morally wrong to destroy a village full of enemy combatants... that are currently firing at them.

What do you want them to do? Run away to get some tear gas and try to subdue them non-lethally? Yeah because f**k mission parameters, let's just never kill people who are trying to kill us even if it costs us all strategic objectives!

So, pretty much what Shepard does---can do---at Zhu's Hope.

Yes, alternatives could've been considered, especially when the mental control could likely cease with the elimination of the objective. Why the brute force when you know the stakes going in?

EDIT: I understand not wanting to respond with the same thing you just posted in response to the above. 

Modifié par dreamgazer, 29 juillet 2013 - 03:04 .

[HellbirdIV]

dreamgazer wrote...

Yes, alternatives could've been considered, especially when the mental control could likely cease with the elimination of the objective. Why the brute force when you know the stakes going in?

None of those are relevant to Samara's story.

In Samara's story, she was assaulted by the mind controlled villagers while attempting to apprehend Morinth, quote "She threw her followers at me to buy herself time to escape", so eliminating her to break the control was impossible.

She applied brute force out of necessity to defend herself, with no ability to retreat, call for backup, and conveniently recieve a magical gas grenade that instantly incapacitated the people trying to kill her.

Shepard was lucky enough to start out prepared far away from the colony with time to make a plan of attack and prepare special equipment for the task. The colonists at Zhu's Hope didn't turn on her while she was in the middle of the colony, unprepared for their attack.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 29 juillet 2013 - 03:06 .

[AresKeith]

StreetMagic wrote...

I don't hold any of that against Samara. My only reason for bringing it up is to point out her Renegade tendencies.

Which just about every character has

[teh DRUMPf!!]

HellbirdIV wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Morinth kills one person every few days. Samara kills groups of people how often while she's on Morinth's trail?

Most likely very rarely. The Code forbids killing innocents (the cops on Ilium are, by the Code, guilty of obstructing the Justicar's duty) so she'd most likely not kill anyone at all 90% of the time.

And the merc lieutenant and her company that Samara killed were guilty of... ?

[HellbirdIV]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

And the merc lieutenant and her company that Samara killed were guilty of... ?

They were Eclipse. The list of their crimes is so long I don't know even a fraction of it beyond murder (how each Eclipse sister earns her uniform), smuggling (people and goods) and illegal weapon modding.

[dreamgazer]

HellbirdIV wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Yes, alternatives could've been considered, especially when the mental control could likely cease with the elimination of the objective. Why the brute force when you know the stakes going in?

None of those are relevant to Samara's story.

Sure they are.

In Samara's story, she was assaulted by the mind controlled villagers while attempting to apprehend Morinth, quote "She threw her followers at me to buy herself time to escape", so eliminating her to break the control was impossible.

She applied brute force out of necessity to defend herself, with no ability to retreat, call for backup, and conveniently recieve a magical gas grenade that instantly incapacitated the people trying to kill her.

Which is all well and good, assuming that Samara had no prior knowledge of the village being controlled.  

Did she?

[HellbirdIV]

dreamgazer wrote...

Which is all well and good, assuming that Samara had no prior knowledge of the village being controlled.  

Did she?

Why don't you play the game and answer that yourself?

[dreamgazer]

HellbirdIV wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Which is all well and good, assuming that Samara had no prior knowledge of the village being controlled.  

Did she?

Why don't you play the game and answer that yourself?

I have.  Why the attitude? 

http://youtu.be/ISt8MCfDCBk?t=3m41s

Modifié par dreamgazer, 29 juillet 2013 - 03:23 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

HellbirdIV wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

And the merc lieutenant and her company that Samara killed were guilty of... ?

They were Eclipse. The list of their crimes is so long I don't know even a fraction of it beyond murder (how each Eclipse sister earns her uniform), smuggling (people and goods) and illegal weapon modding.

And my issues with that are:

--> Being part of a mercenary band is not necessarily illegal itself.
--> Samara cannot know if those she killed were guilty of any crime. Maybe she came from an Eclipse faction outside of Illium where killing someone is not a required part of their initiation. She wouldn't know, though, because part of being a vigilante is bypassing due-process to take the law into your own hands -- and that is a problem.
--> Death penalty as a punishment for smuggling and illegal mods is pretty extreme. I mean, Shepard carries an outlawed weapon in his own armory (Eviscerator shotgun). So... off with his head?

Should I be worried about looting wall safes in Blue Suns bases while she's in my party?


(... brb, gotta walk the dog).

[AlanC9]

Fixers0 wrote...

Perphaps from your incredibly biased and limit point of view, doesn't disprove my point though. Destroying it makes Mass Effect 3's narrative look completely idiotic

But it's good to know to that you consider destroying research that when utilized would invetibly lead to war to be a dumb choice, reminds me what kind of person I'm talking to.

Dude, petty insults are no substitute for an argument. If you want to have a fight about this I'm up for it, but you gotta actually make some kind of point.

Though it's kinda OT since this seems to be a Samara thread now.

Modifié par AlanC9, 29 juillet 2013 - 03:32 .

[ShepnTali]

My paragon Shep has some bad boy in him, looting those wall safes. Yeah, the ladies dig it.


Reminds me of ME2, paragon Shep lecturing the looters in the apartment...

[HellbirdIV]

dreamgazer wrote...

I have.  Why the attitude? 

http://youtu.be/ISt8MCfDCBk?t=3m41s

I get irritated when people make troll arguments or arguments from ignorance. Samara says nothing to indicate wether she knew or not, so your question was clearly one or the other.

HYR 2.0 wrote...

--> Samara cannot know if those she
killed were guilty of any crime. Maybe she came from an Eclipse faction
outside of Illium where killing someone is not a required part of their
initiation. She wouldn't know, though, because part of being a vigilante
is bypassing due-process to take the law into your own hands -- and
that is a problem.
--> Death penalty as a punishment for smuggling and illegal mods is pretty extreme.

Yes. That's kind of the point.

Samara's morals are based on what the Justicar Code says, unlike our own morality where a punishment should fit the crime and it is considered better for ten guilty men to go free than for one innocent to be punished.

We weren't discussing wether or not the Eclipse mercs really deserved to die or by what measure they would be judged guilty, though - they were judged guilty by the Justicar Code, as that is the only morality Samara adheres to.

EDIT:

I should also note that Samara specifically states that the Eclipse merc she neckstomps was actually offered a chance to surrender. This implies that the Justicar's Code does permit for taking even the guilty in alive.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 29 juillet 2013 - 03:40 .