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[lil yonce]

At Andoral's Reach: "The mages here today have elected to instead be represented by their fraternities. I ask your leaders to stand now, and make your votes heard."

So, how did they vote on the voting? Who was in favor of fraternity representation and who wasn't, numerically? Did the mages use the same method to vote on separation as they used to vote on the voting? And if they didn't, why not?

[ladyiolanthe]

There's more than one meaning to the word 'elected', of course...

elected  past participle, past tense of e·lect (Verb)

1.Choose (someone) to hold public office or some other position by voting.
2.Opt for or choose to do (something).

I read that sentence you transcribed from Dragon Age: Asunder  as having the second meaning.
 

Modifié par ladyiolanthe, 28 juillet 2013 - 08:41 .

[PsychoBlonde]

Yes. "Have elected" = "have chosen". If there was a vote, it would be "were elected".

English is *full* of words that mean slightly different things in different contexts. It's why correct grammar is so vital, because a comma or different verb tense can completely change the meaning.

Granted, I haven't studied other languages in depth, so I'm sure you can find cases for this in other languages too.

[lil yonce]

Then how was the method to vote on separation chosen if not voted on? And why wouldn't something like that be voted on?

[ladyiolanthe]

My interpretation of what happened in the book was: the mages chose to have their fraternity leaders represent them, since not all the First Enchanters could make it to the Conclave. Individual fraternity groups met prior to the Conclave and decided, as a fraternity, what their stance would be. This is probably when the voting actually took place. The fraternities selected representatives to present the majority outcome of their votes as the unified voice of each fraternity. Thus, Adrian lets the Conclave know that the Libertarians chose to fight; Rhys tells everyone that the Aequitarians chose to fight as well. The unnamed old dude representing the Loyalists lets everyone know that they, as a group, chose to submit. It's not that weird or mysterious, really...

Modifié par ladyiolanthe, 28 juillet 2013 - 10:38 .

[Angrywolves]

not DAI related so a mod could close the thread.
I assume it's from one of Gaider's books.
The tc needs to explain and tie the topic to DAI in some fashion.
shrugs.
A lot of us don't read the books or comics btw.

[lil yonce]

ladyiolanthe wrote...
My interpretation of what happened in the book was: the mages chose to have their fraternity leaders represent them, since not all the First Enchanters could make it to the Conclave. Individual fraternity groups met prior to the Conclave and decided, as a fraternity, what their stance would be. This is probably when the voting actually took place. The fraternities selected representatives to present the majority outcome of their votes as the unified voice of each fraternity. Thus, Adrian lets the Conclave know that the Libertarians chose to fight; Rhys tells everyone that the Aequitarians chose to fight as well. The unnamed old dude representing the Loyalists lets everyone know that they, as a group, chose to submit. It's not that weird or mysterious, really...

Except this is untrue, or at least unclear. From my understanding, no one knew which way Rhys was going to vote. He was undecided on his vote until the moment he cast it. Of Rhys: "He felt like a poor substitute for his mother. Even so, no one presumed what his answer would be." 'His vote'. Not necessarily the Aequitarian vote. And even still, how did they vote on the voting? If it was a democratic vote, why not give each mage his own vote on separation? And the conclave at Andoral's Reach was small, so really, why not give each mage his or her own vote? Why be represented by a fraternity at all? Fraternities and 'First Enchanters' are now remants of a Circle they've just abandoned. They're simply mages now. And had it been a purely democratic vote, and not a republican vote, would separation have been rejected?

EDIT: And then there is this I just found in the text: 
Adrian: "You're they're representative?"
Rhys: "Apparently they trust my judgement."
Adrian: "And how are you going to vote?"
Rhys: "I haven't decided yet."

So, no Rhys' vote is not a collection of every Aequitarian's at the conclave. It is his own personal vote. So, the mages elected, chose (whichever word you want to use) to be represented by their fraternity leader? How? Democratic vote? Hence, how did they vote on the voting? And the Aequitarians agreed to be represented by the opinon of one man, who hours before the vote, was a Libertarian? Why, when they could have voted on separation the same way they voted on the voting?

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 29 juillet 2013 - 12:21 .

[ladyiolanthe]

I re-read the pertinent pages and you're right, it's unclear. I thought "no one presumed what his answer would be" referred to the mages present at the Conclave who were not part of the Aequitarians; re-reading it, I think there is room for this to mean that the Aequitarians held a silent vote and maybe they don't all know what its outcome was, but it could also be that Rhys is voting based on his own sense of where the Aequitarians stand, like a minister of Parliament who is representing the people of his/her riding (I'm Canadian... as is David Gaider).

The conclave is described as being unusually large, actually - Rhys observes that there are "far more than a dozen-odd first enchanters", and hundreds of mages are packed into the chamber, unlike the last conclave. So, they might have chosen to vote this way because the fraternities are kind of like political parties and it's more efficient than giving every mage a vote. But it's unclear, you're absolutely right.

I'm unclear whether Asunder will have impacts on DA3... I know the first two books are canon since they don't affect decisions made by players in Dragon Age: Origins, but Asunder is another creature altogether. I expect some aspects of it will be brought into play in DA3, but they'll have to be introduced as brand new in the video game, which is the standard response of devs, including Gaider.

Modifié par ladyiolanthe, 29 juillet 2013 - 12:29 .

[lil yonce]

ladyiolanthe wrote...
I re-read the pertinent pages and you're right, it's unclear. I thought "no one presumed what his answer would be" referred to the mages present at the Conclave who were not part of the Aequitarians; re-reading it, I think there is room for this to mean that the Aequitarians held a silent vote and maybe they don't all know what its outcome was, but it could also be that Rhys is voting based on his own sense of where the Aequitarians stand, like a minister of Parliament who is representing the people of his/her riding (I'm Canadian... as is David Gaider).

I think this is the case, generally, but also, he gets to make a decision with his personal opinion in mind, and the latter carries more weight overall.

The conclave is described as being unusually large, actually - Rhys observes that there are "far more than a dozen-odd first enchanters", and hundreds of mages are packed into the chamber, unlike the last conclave. So, they might have chosen to vote this way because the fraternities are kind of like political parties and it's more efficient than giving every mage a vote. But it's unclear, you're absolutely right.

How many Circles are there? I thought there were only about fifteen. And at least two First Enchanters are dead. So, thirteen First Enchanters are present? And, yes, at the last conclave, the White Spire conclave, the vote was going to rest on an incredibly tiny conclave in only the First Enchanters too. Not fair to me at all either.

At the College of Enchanters, I assume a democratic vote from the two-hundred in attendance is first taken before a fraternity, republican vote is cast on an issue, and even still, with less than a thousand people voting at Andoral's Reach, I think a democratic vote is feasible, certainly on the most important issue the Circle has ever been confronted with. And why worry about efficiency? What else are they doing besides twiddling their thumbs? And if the voting on voting was democratic, why not use a democratic vote to settle separation?

I'm unclear whether Asunder will have impacts on DA3... I know the first two books are canon since they don't affect decisions made by players in Dragon Age: Origins, but Asunder is another creature altogether. I expect some aspects of it will be brought into play in DA3, but they'll have to be introduced as brand new in the video game, which is the standard response of devs, including Gaider.

I hope it is mentioned, especially this vote.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 29 juillet 2013 - 02:12 .

[lil yonce]

Bump. No one else is curious about this? The Andoral's Reach conclave, to me, took power out of the hands of the mages, and concentrated it in the hands of five people. If the mages had elected to be represented by their Circles, at least fifteen votes would have been counted. Even though its not fair enough, as likely the First Enchanters would have cast their vote based mostly on personal opinion as the fraternity representatives did, that's more fair than five votes. And electing to be represented by the opinion of a leader, and not your collective votes as a fraternity is odd to me. They voted on the voting, but they couldn't vote on the issue itself? And what were the numbers from voting on the voting? How many mages were against fraternity representation? Can we really say separation was the will of the Circle? I don't think we can.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 30 juillet 2013 - 06:50 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Youth4Ever wrote...

At Andoral's Reach: "The mages here today have elected to instead be represented by their fraternities. I ask your leaders to stand now, and make your votes heard."

So, how did they vote on the voting? Who was in favor of fraternity representation and who wasn't, numerically? Did the mages use the same method to vote on separation as they used to vote on the voting? And if they didn't, why not?

Each fraternity might have a different mechanism for making group decisions.

[lil yonce]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Each fraternity might have a different mechanism for making group decisions.

EDIT: But if the mages aren't being represented by their fraternities at this point, why would they use fraternities to make a group decision? I can only assume "one mage, one vote" to settle representation. The words "The mages here today have elected", and "make your votes heard," lead me to believe that at some point there was a group-wide, pure democratic vote counted on the the issue of representation. And if there was a democratic vote on the voting, why not just use a democratic vote to settle separation?

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 30 juillet 2013 - 07:34 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Why must you assume that? I certainly can't advance some other, differing assumption as better, but why did you make that one?

[lil yonce]

Filament wrote...
Why would democracy be the obvious go-to solution in a place like Thedas?

Its not about Thedosian tradition. This vote is a matter of life or death for most of the mages there, and they don't get to decide for themselves how this plays out? If my life will be on the line, I want a say. I don't want someone to make that decision for me. I think that's a natural reaction. They aren't soldiers, so this is a big deal to me. And this response is ammusing to me since any civil rights argument similar to this gets spun around on templar supporters.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 31 juillet 2013 - 08:46 .

[lil yonce]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Why must you assume that? I certainly can't advance some other, differing assumption as better, but why did you make that one?

If you have no representation, you aren't being represented by anyone other than yourself. The mages hadn't argreed on representation in voting, so they have no representation for the voting on the voting. So, how do you vote on voting when you have no representation? You represent yourself. One mage, one vote. And even if they said let's use our fraternity representation to vote on the issue of representation in the vote on separation, how did they agree on that if not by a pure democratic vote? So, even if there was voting on the voting on the voting, or however far they wanted to carry that, which I wouldn't want to carry far at all, at some point there had to have been a pure democratic vote to decide anything, so why not just do that to decide separation?

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 31 juillet 2013 - 09:19 .

[DatOneFanboy]

Corporate monopoly. does it ever go by the rules?

Modifié par DatOneFanboy, 31 juillet 2013 - 08:54 .

[Nightdragon8]

sounds like its a republic honestly. they seem to have to have gone to fanterinites, like states, and then a leader from each one got a vote to pick a "leader" that sort of thing.

as for the Who voted for who. that may later be told in another story or become relevant at some other date. or it will always remain a mystery.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Youth4Ever wrote...

If you have no representation, you aren't being represented by anyone other than yourself. The mages hadn't argreed on representation in voting, so they have no representation for the voting on the voting. So, how do you vote on voting when you have no representation? You represent yourself. One mage, one vote. And even if they said let's use our fraternity representation to vote on the issue of representation in the vote on separation, how did they agree on that if not by a pure democratic vote?

Who says they did?  Perhaps the heads of fraternities speak for their members out of traditional, so it's simply presumed that what the fraternity head wants is what the fraternity members want.

This is defensible when the frasternity head was chosen in some sort of democratic way (and thus the mages chose to let that guy make decisions on their behalf, without seeking further input from them - this is how modern representative democracries work), but it could be that the fraternity heads are chosen by some sort of elite cabal with no input from the mages at all, and are still presumed to speak for the mages.

There are lots of ways for representation to work, and many of them don't involve direct voting.

[lil yonce]

Nightdragon8 wrote...
sounds like its a republic honestly. they seem to have to have gone to fanterinites, like states, and then a leader from each one got a vote to pick a "leader" that sort of thing.

But how would the mages decide to do that-- go to each fraternity leader and say, you're going to vote on the issue of representation for the vote on separation? There had to have been a vote to decide to do that.

[lil yonce]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Who says they did?

Because Fiona says the mages voted on the issue of representation. "The mages here today have instead elected to be represented by their fraternities." If you have no representation, how do you vote on voting besides democratic vote? And even if you use your fraternities to vote on the voting on the voting, at some point there was a pure democratic vote to decide to do anything. So why not use a democratic vote in the first place to vote on separation?

Perhaps the heads of fraternities speak for their members out of traditional, so it's simply presumed that what the fraternity head wants is what the fraternity members want. This is defensible when the frasternity head was chosen in some sort of democratic way (and thus the mages chose to let that guy make decisions on their behalf, without seeking further input from them - this is how modern representative democracries work), but it could be that the fraternity heads are chosen by some sort of elite cabal with no input from the mages at all, and are still presumed to speak for the mages.

That is the case for at least one fraternity. Irving asked Rhys to represent the Aequitarians and Rhys accepted. No vote on that. Also unfair to me.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 31 juillet 2013 - 09:50 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Who says they did?

Because Fiona says the mages voted on the issue of representation. "The mages here today have elected to be represented by their fraternities."

That just means they chose, not that they voted.

And Fiona might be presuming consent based on tradition.  Even the words might be part of the ceremony, and not even perceived by the particpants as literally true.

You're drawing unfounded conclusions.

If you have no representation, how do you vote on voting besides democratic vote? And even if you use your fraternities to vote on the voting on the voting etc., at some point there was a pure democratic vote to decide to do anything.

The system of undemocratic representation might have been imposed on the mages without their express consent.  We don't know, because we haven't been told, but you seem insistent on making it up.

That is the case for at least one fraternity. Irving asked Rhys to represent the Aequitarians and Rhys accepted. No vote on that. Also unfair to me.

There you go, see?  It's possible no one got to vote.

[lil yonce]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
That just means they chose, not that they voted.

And how do you choose anything if you don't vote on it?

And Fiona might be presuming consent based on tradition.  Even the words might be part of the ceremony, and not even perceived by the particpants as literally true.

No, representation was an issue. There was debate, as she also says, whether or not to be represented by Circles or by fraternities. Fraternity representation was chosen. How? Hence, how did they vote on the voting? My assumption? Democratic vote because its the easiest way, and even if it wasn't, at some point to decide anything there must have been one. And in the context of when she said it, voting does not at all sound like a formality.

You're drawing unfounded conclusions.

I don't think you've read the book.

The system of undemocratic representation might have been imposed on the mages without their express consent.

Then that makes it even easier to cast aspersion on this vote.

We don't know, because we haven't been told, but you seem insistent on making it up.

It was not imposed on them. They choose it by vote. That's the only logical conclusion. Fiona says they debated and they voted. Circle or fraternity represenation were the choices, and they chose fraternity by vote. And, as I said, even if they used representation to vote on the voting on the voting, at some point there was a democratic vote to decide to do that because how do you vote without representation? Because how do you decide to do anything without voting on it?

There you go, see?  It's possible no one got to vote.

Then the entire separation vote was a sham. And the Rhys issue could be negated because of voting on representation. Doesn't matter if he's the leader because you can decide against using fraternity representation. Though the timing would matter since he was asked to be the representative a few hours before the vote was cast. And if Irving at least asked the Aequitarians if they had any concerns and there was no real objection, I would consider that acceptably democratic enough.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 01 août 2013 - 03:01 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Youth4Ever wrote...

I don't think you've read the book.

I have.

It was not imposed on them. They choose it by vote. That's the only logical conclusion. Fiona says they debated and they voted.

Fiona doesn't even use the word vote.  She said they elected to be represented - they could have done that through an informal discussion.

Then the entire separation vote was a sham.

Does that matter?  Does the separation initiative need democratic legitimacy?  Frankly, the entire concept of democracy seems a bit odd, given the pseudo-medieval setting.

[Thomas Andresen]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Frankly, the entire concept of democracy seems a bit odd, given the pseudo-medieval setting.

There certainly doesn't seem to be any precedent for democracy anywhere in Thedas, as far as I've seen.