223 réponses à ce sujet

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Silverexile, take a chill pill. I'm not telling you our plot. That is not going to happen.

One of the biggest problems with the original M.E. was the mystification of technology. Reaper technology was the most advanced. If we were to understand it we would be able to skip ahead by 10,000 years or more. That was judged to be wrong because it wouldn't be earned. That theme was underscored by the Salarians uplifting the Krogan, and the Krogan rebellions. And Mordin talks about uplifting civilizations before they are ready being disasterous. First it started with that the reapers could indoctrinate. That was fine. Then it morphed into reaper tech could indoctrinate and mere contact with it would turn the person into something grotesque. This was the mystification of technology. This was the central theme of Mass Effect.

The Illusive Man represented Lucifer, the bringer of light, wanting to demystify this technology to elevate humanity. In the end the mysteries of the technology overpowered him. The technology he was studying was evil because we didn't earn it on our own the hard way. It would be jumping ahead 10,000 years. We were judged by God as not ready for it and so he, too, was turning into the grotesque.

So every 50,000 years the reapers come in to wipe the galaxy clean before it reaches the stage of technology where it would out grow the need for God. (Leviathan was not part of the original idea.) Thus in the end we had a problem we could not solve ourselves and needed to talk to God about solving a problem that we didn't know existed until the final five minutes of the story.

Shepard: "Solution? Solution to what?"
God: "Chaos. The created will always rebel against their creators." ...... WTF???????????

Didn't that bother you in the least? Did this make any sense to you? Technology is evil my son. I've mentioned several times that if you demonstrated your iPad to the church congregation in 1700 you would be burned at the stake for witchcraft. It would be the same to them as reaper tech. Mystical! Black Magic! Bad Juju! So you get to destroy tech, control tech, or do some pseudomystical crap that joins synthetic and organic -- again it's all mystical and a higher power was needed.

Do you really want that kind of ending again?

We can take what's been written so far, kick it here and there, knock it around a bit, demystify stuff, and come up with things that work differently.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Do you see how the Reaper mythology can start being deconstructed? This is the beginning of it, and certainly not the end. Forget ME3. It never happened. And try to remember that the galaxy is huge. We only got little snap shots of what was going on.

The reapers even failed to eliminate an Innusannon relic.... Ilos.

[Erez Kristal]

Fatiguesdualism wrote...

Not a member of this party, but was wondering is the consensus here that the codex (pre-ME3 at least) was 'holy writ' (so-to-speak) and established exactly what was/the one true truth. Or was it more of an 'Encyclopaedia Universe' in that it could be mistaken about certain details on entries?

The codex pre-me3 is the common knowledge source of the milky way galaxy. its the extranet wikipedia of the mass effect universe. which is why soveriegn is refered to as a geth dreadnought. and the relays are believed to be constructed by the protheans.

[silverexile17s]

Redbelle wrote...

@silverexile

As long as you can write an ending where martrydom doesn't take place, because in a game that kind of stuff really sucks balls, when you could be enjoying 15 mins of button pushing mayhem..... feel free to add what you like to the ME3 rewrite cause.

Because even though your kinda off msg with the inititive, it's always good to get another perspective that can change the perception of past events.

Look at the Reapers. Look what they've done in the past two games alone. To the protheans. To the entire galaxy thousands of times over. How the hell did anyone not expect "martydom"? These are tantimount to gods were fighting -- no matter how you look at it, nothing else but a phyrric victory was possible. You can't fight something this big or powerful without a big sacrifice. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

I never expected a happy ending. I did expect it to be executed better and make a tad more sense, but the big choice at the end? Not unexpected.

[silverexile17s]

erezike wrote...

silverexile, you sound rather furious and discontent. have some faith.

The underlining isn't my tone of voice. It's how I underline sentences. If a perticular part of what I say looks like I need to emphisize it, I'll bold, underline and itillize it. It's not representitive of my temperment or tone of voice -- it's just emphisizing a word or sentance.

And based on the current direction you're trying to take this, I'm just saying it's likely going to fall through since you can't brigde the gap without altering the past game as well.

[silverexile17s]

Fatiguesdualism wrote...

Not a member of this party, but was wondering is the consensus here that the codex (pre-ME3 at least) was 'holy writ' (so-to-speak) and established exactly what was/the one true truth. Or was it more of an 'Encyclopaedia Universe' in that it could be mistaken about certain details on entries?

In regards to the Reapers, the information comes from the research and confirmed information they've learned during the War. It's mostly accurate, with only a few specks here and there.

[silverexile17s]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Do you see how the Reaper mythology can start being deconstructed? This is the beginning of it, and certainly not the end. Forget ME3. It never happened. And try to remember that the galaxy is huge. We only got little snap shots of what was going on.

The reapers even failed to eliminate an Innusannon relic.... Ilos.

Actually, those statues were revealed by the game-devs to really be prothean -- their equivilant to artwork. Not actually innusannon. Meaning there really wasn't any real innusannon relics that survived on Ilos.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 27 septembre 2013 - 07:24 .

[silverexile17s]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Silverexile, take a chill pill. I'm not telling you our plot. That is not going to happen.

One of the biggest problems with the original M.E. was the mystification of technology. Reaper technology was the most advanced. If we were to understand it we would be able to skip ahead by 10,000 years or more. That was judged to be wrong because it wouldn't be earned. That theme was underscored by the Salarians uplifting the Krogan, and the Krogan rebellions. And Mordin talks about uplifting civilizations before they are ready being disasterous. First it started with that the reapers could indoctrinate. That was fine. Then it morphed into reaper tech could indoctrinate and mere contact with it would turn the person into something grotesque. This was the mystification of technology. This was the central theme of Mass Effect.

The Illusive Man represented Lucifer, the bringer of light, wanting to demystify this technology to elevate humanity. In the end the mysteries of the technology overpowered him. The technology he was studying was evil because we didn't earn it on our own the hard way. It would be jumping ahead 10,000 years. We were judged by God as not ready for it and so he, too, was turning into the grotesque.

So every 50,000 years the reapers come in to wipe the galaxy clean before it reaches the stage of technology where it would out grow the need for God. (Leviathan was not part of the original idea.) Thus in the end we had a problem we could not solve ourselves and needed to talk to God about solving a problem that we didn't know existed until the final five minutes of the story.

Shepard: "Solution? Solution to what?"
God: "Chaos. The created will always rebel against their creators." ...... WTF???????????

Didn't that bother you in the least? Did this make any sense to you? Technology is evil my son. I've mentioned several times that if you demonstrated your iPad to the church congregation in 1700 you would be burned at the stake for witchcraft. It would be the same to them as reaper tech. Mystical! Black Magic! Bad Juju! So you get to destroy tech, control tech, or do some pseudomystical crap that joins synthetic and organic -- again it's all mystical and a higher power was needed.

Do you really want that kind of ending again?

We can take what's been written so far, kick it here and there, knock it around a bit, demystify stuff, and come up with things that work differently.

I wasn't asking. Because unless you make changes to ME2's plot to make it more relevent to actually fighting the Reapers, it doesn't have much chance of working from what I see.

And it took two and a half years just to put the Thanix into private production. It was only just starting public production when the Reapers arrived. In two and a half years, the most we got from Sovergein was that one weapon. That's not much in the way of progress. Especally since as the Derilict Reaper proved, most pieces of Reaper-Tech are capable of indoctrination, making study of Reaper-tech near-implausible.
As for the grotesqe mutations, those are just nanomahcines -- that's explained in "Mass Effect: Retribution" during Paul Grayson's experimentation. It's not 'mysticism.' Just another level of science.

...I think you might be reading a little too much into the biblical theme here. It was arrogance and miscalculation. He tried to use tools he wasn't ready for, and it backfired. He thought he was cleverer then those that tried before. He wasn't. Besides, isn't using tech more advanced then ours (The Mass Relays and ME technology) to evolve how everyone in the galaxy got to this point to begin with, humans included? It's just repeating the effort on a bigger scale -- the base concept was sound, but the execution flawed. Something that ironically corrosponds to most of ME3's plotlines.

Look at this from a scientific standpoint. Even in old history, empires that grow too big collapse on themselves and their infrastructire dissolves. They fall into extinction, taking their secrets, culture, knowledge, and potentally unique species with them. This is an inevitibility. In the modern galaxy, this is coupled with the creation of synthetic life -- treated as inferiout to organics, yet feared for their potential to surpass us. That they could evolve farther and faster and eventually replace us. In turn, organics evolve by creating better and more advanced tools, which culminates in synthetic life. An endless cycle, which usually ends in conflict between organic and synthetic in one way or another. After all, all organic life evolves from bacteria -- germs. Micro-orginisims. Organics are born imperfict, and evolve via ingenuity and adaptation to compensate for those limitations. Synthetics have no such limitations beyond the one's forcibly imposed upon them by their creators. They are immortal, organics are not. By the cold logic of synthetics, organics have no real reason to exist.
That's the basis or the conflict.

The problem is that the Catalyst's been right in that regard. In one way or another, regardless of what reason or who started the fight first, synthetics always rebel. Always. Weather it be launching the first strike, or reacting in self-defense, they always have risen up. The geth alone are proof of that. And it happened enough in the past that the Leviathans created the Catalyst to solve it. But after continuly failing at this, it figured there was no way to prevent the conflicts besides not letting them start in the first place. To put it frankly.... it gave up on us. It gave up on all us organics and synthetics ever solving the problem of co-existance, and that we'd likely destroy each-other and the galaxy itself before we'd ever come close to fixing it ourselves. So it forced the issue by melding us together..... the Reapers were born. I'm not saying it's right. I'm not saying I approve of it. I am saying that from a completely amoral, computer-cold logic point of view, it makes sense. It doesn't make it right, but I can understand the baseline logic.

I'm not into the higher power stuff -- I'm slightly atheist. My mom and sister are Mormon, my father is Atheist, and my grandparents are Christian. Me, though -- I more the "sicence and logic' type of person somewhere in between. Granted, I haven't discredited the existance of God like my father does, but I tend to think of God as apathetic to us little humans. I look for answers in sicence and logic. Thus, you can say that I understand the Catalyst's amoral, emotion-free line of thought better then most and understand it better. Doesn't mean I support it, but I do see where it was comming from.

Point of fact being, the Reapers techniques were established long before as being well beyond what we could ever hope to catch up to or combat conventionally. A way to even the playing field was needed. The Crucible was that field-leveler, because nothing else could or would work. Harnessing Dark Energy and using it like a biotic warp attack or beam at least uses methods seen in-game. The warp attack represents Destroy -- tearing apart what's in it's way, unless focused on spicific targets. In ME2, the Ardat-Yakshi Morinth could use a power called "Domination" which could enslave organics through long-distance biotic use. Not sure how it worked, but it was done through the use of biotics - AKA Dark Energy. Meaning the Crucible is a technological equivilant. If Morinth could do it to organics, it's possible to do on a large scale - hence Control. By spreading the signal in the Dark Energy emissions released from the Crucible. It's probably a lot more complicated then that, though.

With the Reapers, there really isn't any point to "demystify them" They're just more technology advanced then us. Always have been.  But there was a reason the devs left that air of mystisisim around them - The apperance of godhood made them threatening and terrifying. Like facing the unknown is. Remove that, you destroy a crucial aspect of their personafication in the series -- the idea that your fighting a force of nature rather then just another enemy. They are logic based, and technologically superiour. The godhood is just how that superiority makes them look. We know they aren't gods, but they project themselves as if they were -- they move with impunity, and without concern for anyone under them.
Removing that aspect -- that ideal of dealing with a race that's seen more and experianced more then you ever will - lessens the maginitude of what they are, what they've done, and what they are going to do.  It's a tool -- an aspect of their atmosphere as ancient technologically-superiour beings that have outlasted thousands of races and empires. We fear them because even though we know they are entirely tech-based, their level of advancement makes them a force, not a faction. 

I mean, you yourself said it's only natural to treat superiour tech with fear and awe. So why is it so unatural with the Reapers?

Modifié par silverexile17s, 27 septembre 2013 - 08:10 .

[Redbelle]

WW2. Germany's war machine seemed unstoppable till mistakes and their mode of operation were assessed by the other side and compensated for.

The largest tank battle in history that saw the immense German tanks slug it out with inferior models showed that with superior tactics and maneuvring, one of these tanks could be destroyed on one inferior at the cost of two inferior ones. due to the tactics that had to be employed to do so. In addition, the inferior models were easier to maintain. Required less intensive service requirements and could be assembled quickly and cheaply. Just because the Reapers happen to be juggernaut's is no reason that the current space faring forces cannot acheive some wins. Reaper killing tactics are actually talked about in the codex. But we never see success of these tactics. This is an unfair highly skewed view of the state of the war in that it is implied that the Reapers never lose or have a ship of theirs damaged.

The point is.... it may seem hopeless to some. But to other's it a challenge to rise up to. And gamers were never allowed to challenge the Reaper state. It was always portreyed as unstoppable. Yet EDI mentions that the Reapers are not unstoppable as a giant worm killed one. This is where the rewrite team can take inspiration and exploit creative ingenuity to take this concept further.

Also. ME3 states that Shepard spoke to a Reaper and then blew it up. Before ME3 I can't think of a time when Shepard was responsible for blowing up a Reaper. He was largely responsible for Sovereigns destruction. He also commanded the ship that did it. But not the chief cause. Which was Normandy if memory serves. The first one. Which showed that once a Reapers defences were circumnavigated, they were vunerable.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Another thing that this one found hilarious in the original games the Asari ships never fired a single shot during any cutscene. The Destiny Ascension was never shown firing a single shot during the Battle of the Citadel and it's main gun had more firepower than the entire Asari fleet combined -- quote from Joker ME1. Should it have been able to breach the shields of a reaper? It was more powerful than 20 dreadnoughts. It should have been able to take out Sovereign in one shot. This one thinks that it was stupid video game logic so that Commander Shepard could come to the rescue and save the day. The Destiny Ascension should have been able to take out any single Reaper Capital ship with a single shot. It was a super dreadnought. Plus the Asari upgraded its main gun in 2186. Perhaps this is why the Reapers were taking heavy losses against the Asari in space battles? This one thinks that the reapers were getting a left tentacle smacked firmly on their hindquarters by the Asari Navy which is what caused them to change their tactics and decide to ignore the fleets and land on the planets directly. -- the one true Blasto fan.

Why remove that mysticism of technology? Because regardless of what mystics say about the enemy or technology, there are sufficient pragmatists in the galaxy who will study the technology. They will demystify it. Once that is done, we find that it is their technology that makes them a very powerful faction, which is exactly what they are, nothing more.

That is how an enemy with superior technology is defeated. They are not defeated by continuing to see them as a force of nature with an aura of mysticism around them and with fear. You respect your enemy, not fear them. You develop technology to counter theirs by understanding their technology.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 27 septembre 2013 - 07:12 .

[silverexile17s]

Redbelle wrote...

WW2. Germany's war machine seemed unstoppable till mistakes and their mode of operation were assessed by the other side and compensated for.

The largest tank battle in history that saw the immense German tanks slug it out with inferior models showed that with superior tactics and maneuvring, one of these tanks could be destroyed on one inferior at the cost of two inferior ones. due to the tactics that had to be employed to do so. In addition, the inferior models were easier to maintain. Required less intensive service requirements and could be assembled quickly and cheaply. Just because the Reapers happen to be juggernaut's is no reason that the current space faring forces cannot acheive some wins. Reaper killing tactics are actually talked about in the codex. But we never see success of these tactics. This is an unfair highly skewed view of the state of the war in that it is implied that the Reapers never lose or have a ship of theirs damaged.

The point is.... it may seem hopeless to some. But to other's it a challenge to rise up to. And gamers were never allowed to challenge the Reaper state. It was always portreyed as unstoppable. Yet EDI mentions that the Reapers are not unstoppable as a giant worm killed one. This is where the rewrite team can take inspiration and exploit creative ingenuity to take this concept further.

Also. ME3 states that Shepard spoke to a Reaper and then blew it up. Before ME3 I can't think of a time when Shepard was responsible for blowing up a Reaper. He was largely responsible for Sovereigns destruction. He also commanded the ship that did it. But not the chief cause. Which was Normandy if memory serves. The first one. Which showed that once a Reapers defences were circumnavigated, they were vunerable.

That's not a good compariosn -- The Reapers aren't Germany. They've actually sccueeded multiple times, and unlike Germany, every known aspect of modern tech can be backtraced to them, meaning that unlike what happened in WWII. we have no chance whatsoever of matching them step-for-step. Hell, they aren't even intristed in conquest and occupation, or a thirst for power. They're running on cold, streamlined logic. They're the ones doing the assessing and compensating, not us. We haven't been able to do that successfully on our own -- it took deus ex machina's like Vigil's "Citadel off-switch" to stop them.

We don't have that luxury. The Reapers possess something you keep overlooking -- Indoctrination. Meaning any attempt to study their tech and compensate accordingly will always fail. Cerberus' actions and subsiquent downfall should be living proof of that. The Reapers have the tactical superioirty of thousands of races -- they outclass us in the tactical division by several milluon years. Meaning the edge goes to them on that too.
They took all the resources we have. They obliterate us faster then we can rebuild. And again, unlike Germany, they've mapped out everything in advance -- they know the positions of all the life-bearing and resoruce-rich worlds, and took them in advance. There are no resources to maintain and repair the ships with. We aren;t going at them with smaller tanks -- we're going at them with jeeps. And they are full-assault tanks.  There's just no comparison -- Sovergein proved that by going toe to toe with the five main Alliance fleets at the Battle of the Citadel. And since the Reapers have access to mass fabrication and advanced harvesting, they can matinance faster then us. Hell, their combat methods are turning our own people against us. Garrus makes note of this -- saying they have absolutly no concerns about maintaining their force because they siphon it all from us. We wear ourselves out by killing our own husk-mutated people and draining our resources.
That's because most victories happened on the ground, not in space. And were done in suicide tactics. Conventional victory was never possible -- our losses far outweigh theirs. And that count doubles since most of the Reaper losses are husks created from our own people.

No. It's not just another chalange -- that's trivilizing the threat. The Reapers are a force of nature. The game's not war -- it's survival. Forget winning -- the chalange here is to make it to tommorow. Unless you have something that can even the field in one shot, conventional wars of attrition will always -- always -- be doomed to fail. "Creative inginuity" can only get you so far. It didn't save the protheans, or the innusannon, or any other race in the long run. You're confussing the Reapers taking losses as being the same as a defeat. It's not. They've suffered loss, but never suffered an actual defeat on the conventional battle. Only the unorthodox, like the Crucible, has any chance because it breaks the attrition. Get trapped in that cycle and you lose, no matter what you do. It's like the spartians at Thermopylae -- the sheer numbers defeated them, no matter what they did. Here, it's even worse because we don't even have the superiour warriors and tactics like the spartians did. The enemy outnumbers, outstrips, and out-classes us. No matter how many you kill here, you just can't kill them all. Actually, scratch that -- it's more like "Halo: Reach." You lose no matter what conventional tactic you use.

Actually, Shepard didn't. That was the quarian Migrant Fleet. Which had all been outfitted with warship weapons by then.
Sovergein died because of some sort of psychic-backlash from the Saren-Husk's death. If not for that, Sovergein's barriers wouldn't have failed and it wouldn't have gone down. Besides, the Normandy struck the underside of Sovergein, not the heavily armored top-side. And getting around a Reaper when it's got buddies covering it is easier said then done, especally when the barriers are active. Those vuneribilities aren't easily accessible unless in special circumstances. And with the Reapers here in force, those are few and far between.

Face it -- it's just not possible conventionally. That's why Drew Karpyshyn created the Crucible plot-point to begin with.

[silverexile17s]

alleyd wrote...

 In ME1 and ME2, the Reapers were made as demonic god creatures and we are told they were independent entities with a voice of their own. Powerful and Eternal, the masters of destruction that are so advanced they can break the core laws of the Universe

But the behaviour of the only physical example contradicts that. Yes Sovereign was successfull in sweeping past the defences, but only because it had the most powerful force in the MEU acting as a screening fleet.  

In ME3, they were largely mute and we find out they were nothing more than tools with no real will of their own, controlled by a centralised entity.

The problem was actually worse when Leviathan is introduced, these are essentially the original Reapers but without the massively overpowered fleet.

I cannot see the connection here, but I can see why things were left up to speculation, mainly because there was no consistency in what they actually are. The original writers twisted them and their purpose further than anything the Rewrite team are doing, the lore may not be perfect, but it is an attempt at demystifying them and an attempt at bringing some dropped threads together

It's kinda like the geth -- independant as single beings, but part of a larger overreaching network. And in ME2, they do just that -- the made a space station - The Collector Base - surrounded by black holes.

At least five of the eight Alliance fleets were at teh Battle of the Citadel. Sovergein was winning until ithe Saren-Husk psychic-backlash.

In ME3, they really had no reason to speak to us. They're here. They assumed it's their victory. What reason is there to speak now? Besides, the Catalyst said he embodies all the Reapers, not that he's their "ruler." Their all one entity. Speaking to the Catalyst is the same as speaking to Harbinger. Besides, as I recall, Sovergein was mostly mute as well, only speaking once via direct interface.

The Reapers always had an overpowered fleet. That was established back in ME1.

That's not really true. That the Reapers were ancient and powerful beings coming to harvest us was always certian. That they were "our salvation" never really changed. They were always "mystifyed" because of the tech they had. Removing that destroyes a crucial part of their mythos -- that these aren't regular enemies. They're a force of nature rather then conventional enemies, and this is a fight against insurmountible odds. "Demystifying" them destroyes that and lesssens the magnitude of the threat. Not a good direction given what ME1 and ME2 told of them.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 28 septembre 2013 - 04:26 .

[silverexile17s]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Another thing that this one found hilarious in the original games the Asari ships never fired a single shot during any cutscene. The Destiny Ascension was never shown firing a single shot during the Battle of the Citadel and it's main gun had more firepower than the entire Asari fleet combined -- quote from Joker ME1. Should it have been able to breach the shields of a reaper? It was more powerful than 20 dreadnoughts. It should have been able to take out Sovereign in one shot. This one thinks that it was stupid video game logic so that Commander Shepard could come to the rescue and save the day. The Destiny Ascension should have been able to take out any single Reaper Capital ship with a single shot. It was a super dreadnought. Plus the Asari upgraded its main gun in 2186. Perhaps this is why the Reapers were taking heavy losses against the Asari in space battles? This one thinks that the reapers were getting a left tentacle smacked firmly on their hindquarters by the Asari Navy which is what caused them to change their tactics and decide to ignore the fleets and land on the planets directly. -- the one true Blasto fan.

Why remove that mysticism of technology? Because regardless of what mystics say about the enemy or technology, there are sufficient pragmatists in the galaxy who will study the technology. They will demystify it. Once that is done, we find that it is their technology that makes them a very powerful faction, which is exactly what they are, nothing more.

That is how an enemy with superior technology is defeated. They are not defeated by continuing to see them as a force of nature with an aura of mysticism around them and with fear. You respect your enemy, not fear them. You develop technology to counter theirs by understanding their technology.

That's just in-game limitations. Not really all that much to draw justification from. And that's a gross overestimation of the Ascencion's power. At least three to four dreadnoughts at max. Tewnty would be the same power as the weapon that created the Derilict Reaper, hence my cry of "overestimation." And the Ascension is the only ship to have a weapon like that. One that wasn't even able to be replaced three years later, if you let the ship be destroyed in ME1.
Besides, the geth fleet was screening Sovergien's approach. Just the same as the much more powerful Reaper Destroyers do to the larger capital ships. So the Ascension wouldn't even have a clear shot since dreadnoughts are only effective at long range, making them easy to get blitzed by smaller ships. And on top of that, Reaper weapins have twice the range of the Ascencion, meaning that it should actually be reversed -- Sovergen should have been able to take out the Ascension in one shot.

Also, the Ascencion never actually was in a fight until the attack on the Reapers at Earth -- it was, like always, kept near the Citadel for the Council's convience. That's the standard position for that ship. Besides, the Reapers weren't actually taking "heavy losses." Just losses. Likely minor.
Besides, according to Hackett, the Reapers were plowing through the asari no less easily then they did humans. After all, according to Hackett, the asari weren't even attacked in force until after the Citadel coup -- they were focusing on the turians at the time. When that was done and the turians put on the ropes, they turned to the asari, and plowed through them too.
Sorry, but the truth is that the asari lasted longer because the Reapers didn't foucs on them first. They focused on humans and turians first.

Cerberus should be proof of what happens when you treat the Reapers' tech callously like that. Their tech and their advancement makes them much, much more then just another enemy. They are a bio-technological race, far beyond ours. They've had millinea of advancement. Three years later, and all we gleaned from them was one new gun, and several factions of indoctrinated people. That's not much of an arguement to "demystify" them with. "Demystifying" them is the absolute worst thing you can do here. Because their level of advancement makes them technological patriarchs. We never feared them as gods. We feared them as a force of nature. A power, not a faction. To say they are "nothing more" is an insult.  It lessens the gravity of what they are. What they're comming to do.

So your saying we shold just do what Cerberus did? Treat the tech and the enemy with no respect like that, and you'll end up no different then the Illusive Man did. Fear and respect go hand in hand. Fearing what they can do gives you a respect for their power, and vice-verca. The path you propose is no different then what Cerberus did in the main game, or what Saren did in ME1. Look how that turned out.
You need fear of an enemy to truly respect what they can do, and you can't fear an enemy without respecting what they're capabilities are. The Reapers are superiour to us in tech and tactics. Trying to make it more level would mean rewriting what they've been since the dawn of the series.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 27 septembre 2013 - 09:44 .

[silverexile17s]

alleyd wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

alleyd wrote...

 In ME1 and ME2, the Reapers were made as demonic god creatures and we are told they were independent entities with a voice of their own. Powerful and Eternal, the masters of destruction that are so advanced they can break the core laws of the Universe

But the behaviour of the only physical example contradicts that. Yes Sovereign was successfull in sweeping past the defences, but only because it had the most powerful force in the MEU acting as a screening fleet.  

In ME3, they were largely mute and we find out they were nothing more than tools with no real will of their own, controlled by a centralised entity.

The problem was actually worse when Leviathan is introduced, these are essentially the original Reapers but without the massively overpowered fleet.

I cannot see the connection here, but I can see why things were left up to speculation, mainly because there was no consistency in what they actually are. The original writers twisted them and their purpose further than anything the Rewrite team are doing, the lore may not be perfect, but it is an attempt at demystifying them and an attempt at bringing some dropped threads together

It's kinda like the geth -- independant as single beings, but part of a larger overreaching network. And in ME2, they do just that -- the made a space station - The Collector Base - surrounded by black holes.

At least five of the eight Alliance fleets were at teh Battle of the Citadel. Sovergein was winning until ithe Saren-Husk psychic-backlash.

In ME3, they really had no reason to speak to us. They're here. They assumed it's their victory. What reason is there to speak now? Besides, the Catalyst said he embodies all the Reapers, not that he's their "ruler." Their all one entity. Speaking to the Catalyst is the same as speaking to Harbinger.

The Reapers always had an overpowered fleet. That was established back in ME1.

That's not really true. That the Reapers were ancient and powerful beings coming to harvest us was always certian. That they were "our salvation" never really changed. They were always "mystifyed" because of the tech they had. Removing that destroyes a crucial part of their mythos -- that these aren't regular enemies. They're a force of nature rather then conventional enemies, and this is a fight against insurmountible odds. "Demystifying" them destroyes that and lesssens the magnitude of the threat. Not a good direction given what ME1 and ME2 told of them.

You are correct to say that demystifying a demonic or god entity by bringing it into the physical realm lessens the perception of threat. If you like your enemies to be superstitious and mystical and your allies to be dumbed down into coma, MEU is a better than average way of tying together some shooty bits.

The accusation still stands that it is inconsistant and been subject to major change, this is natural for a project where the authors change over time and it is written by committee. It is even more natural when there is a change in publishing or strategic direction in a franchise.  IMO ME suffers from franchise fatique, like most comic or cartoon Superhero franchises do over time. It wasn't truly fatal in the earlier games, but it was in ME3 for a significant amount of people.

But again, that's the wrong thing to do here. The level of tech and advancement the Reapers display has more then earned them the level of fear that one would reserve for gods. We know they aren't gods, but it feels like it. It feels like you're trying to stop the rising tide. You can forstall it, but conventional methods will always fail. Without drastic unorthodox methods, you'll fall every time. Look what Sovergein did to the Citadel Fleets. Look at the husks. Look at the Collectors --  actual prothean husks --. They make space stations surrounded by black holes. They create a network of instanious mass-free travel-corridors. They can overrite the brain with subsonic signals. What isn't there to fear? Hell, for the last two games, the Reapers were nothing but a myth to the galaxy. And there wasn't any surviving proof they existed besides the word of a formally dead human who was working for Cerberus, and then caused genocide at the Alpha Relay. I'd hardly call wanting proof of something being "dumbed down into a coma." I mean, if someone told you something unbelievable and unrealistic like "chocolate lava is going to rain from the sky tomorrow," would you believe them without proof? Hell, even Shepard says that he/she wouldn't even believe in the Repaers if not for having firsthand experiance.

No, it hasn't. That's a false accusation compared to the rest of the series.
The Reapers have been stated as being manevolent beings that want to harvest us. That never changed. They are technologically superiour to us, and outstrip us in every way in conventional battle. That never changed. They claimed to be our salvation through destruction. That never changed. (Destruction of our old forms and "salvation" in the form of a Reaper). They are nation-minds that are independant. That never changed. (And before you cite the Catalyst, the Catalyst says that he embodies all Reapers. He's not a central figure that controls them -- he is all their minds put together and given form).
How about giving examples that prove their discription changed or varied as widely as you say? I never really saw that much of a change. Besides, if you look online, you'll see that most of what's in ME3's main storyline was Drew Karpyshyn's baseline frame. Same writer as ME1 & ME2. Mac just fleshed it out afterwards. Drew created the Crucible -- this was his plan from the get-go was to have the Crucible, since it was part of the Dark Energy plot.

[Erez Kristal]

Ever since the begining of time the mankind as learned how to cope with different forces of nature. we have learned how to live in the freeezing cold temperatures of the sea, we have put pepole to live on the freezing ice of antarctica. we survive an ice age with nothing more than a few animals fur and stick. we have conquered the ability to fly into space and to dive into the depths of the ocean. we have build bridges to help us cross rivers and dams to stop those rivers when they threat to flood our cities. we have put down forest fires, we have changed the world climate(and are changing it back again in me) ever since the beginning of time the mankind as dealt with limitation. limitations caused us to advance. earthquae took down your house? you bulid a stronger one that wouldnt collapse or you build one which is light and can easily be rebuilt again.

Enthusiasm aside. Conventional victory is an issue for another thread in the story section. here is a link for the latest one., http://social.biowar...17377063-1.html

[Redbelle]

On the subject of indoctrination.... while it is an MP mechanic they did introduce the concept of incod boosters. Which can be disabled. Hundreds of thousands disabled in mulitple ways depending on who and where which can not indoctrinate anyone, and are built to enhance Reaper tech by boosting the broadcast range, or strength of signal.

So if we accept that MP can be applied to story on account that it's supposed to be based in the same MEU, then by cherry picking that mechanic and taking it into the story, we have all the devices needed to reverse engineer the tech and discover how the signal is bossted, and in doing so, discover how the signal may likewise be blocked. It''s a simple escalation of the war in that the Reapers innovate, the opposition counter innovates.

Counter innovation is probably at the heart of the rewrite project, among other things. Because aafter being exposed to Reaper forces and tech, how can a war on a galactic setting not produce innovation's in how to fight it?

It's becoming clear that you see this as a very one sided battle. And it is at the beginning. But saying that it is hopeless is nonsense. The odds are against the galaxy but this time the Reapers lost the element of surprise. They couldn't sweep in and shut down travel and communication. They had to enter via relay and spread out across the galaxy. Certainly the Batarians had the least warning and got thrashed as a result. But every other race seems to have rallied and kept loses down.

It's an up hill struggle. But it would not be dramatic if it weren't. And here in lays the crux of why this rewrite is happening.

This story of Shepard is a dramatic one. It needs drama to fuel it. Victories and defeats to showcase the range of emotion the characters can feel. Challenges so that the interactive aspect of it can rope in a player.

And above all. Layering. So that things can be done along the road to set up the final battle. That doesn't mean creating some one shot device out of thin air. It means creating the character's who have been working unknown in the background who come forth or are discovered who are hostile or friendly. Who are eager to help or not for their own reasons. Who may have a device that can help the war effort that needs another guy, or a part and so on and so forth.

Focusing on the supieriority index of the Reaper as the be all and end all of the writing process is bad writing. Things need to be layered in. It was supposed to be the fleet, I think every gamer once thought. Till they assembled it and discvoered that........nope! All that effort and you still can't beat the Reapers. That may be good story telling in movies. But not in a game. And this is game story writing that needs to rewards gamers for their efforts. Not ignore them and then throw up a character we've never seen or heard from and have them derail the whole story.

If they really wanted a Reaper off swtich. They could have at least made the fleet's. The ground forces, and your squad mates, part of the interactive process to get it.

And while these interaction's may seem small. They are vital to the flavour of ME.

One little detail they overlooked? Shepard Auto Dialogues his way through ordering the fleet to engage. That should have been an interactive choice in the hands of the player. You built up this fleet. Now unleash it.

[Erez Kristal]

I just wanted to put it out there. that the reapers we plan for our plot are stronger and smarter than the reapers seen in the original me3.

[Armass81]

silverexile17s wrote...

erezike wrote...

Silveexile I appriceate your high concerns for this project. we obviously have our differences in regards to what direction this rewrite sould go. if you wish to start an initiative to rewrite me2 as well as me3 or patch me3 in a different form. by all means do so.

The goal of this intitative is to continue the events of mass effect 2 seamlessy. our direction is very different from the direction of the original me3 and we feel that so far we managed to maintain a higher level of logic and plot coherency.

There is no way to "seemlessy" continue the events, because ME2 was too decentrilized from the main plot. The Direction ME3 went in wasn't the best, but it's the only way the events of ME2 left it. There wasn't a sizable enough foundation in ME2 for any sort of "seemless" rewrite. It's just not possible without retconning or rewriting aspects of ME2's plot. The lack of logic and coherency that started in ME2 carried over to ME3, in that we spent so much time dealing with symptioms rather then the cause. Any "higher level" you create will ultimitely fall through and fail because there was too much to catch up on then could fit into one game. ME2 didn't do enough to prepare for the Reapers arrival. You're dealing with the consiquences of that in ME3. You can't change that without rewrite of both games.

I think youre wasting your time, I too agree that they should have made up ME2 completely first before ME3. As a game its good but as a middle parter it doesnt really work. Maybe if it was a sidegame like ME 1.5 or something.  I would have based ME2 on Citadel-Terminus war manipulated behind the scenes by the collectors and finding a way to defeat the reapers while also bringing an end to the war.

[silverexile17s]

erezike wrote...

Ever since the begining of time the mankind as learned how to cope with different forces of nature. we have learned how to live in the freeezing cold temperatures of the sea, we have put pepole to live on the freezing ice of antarctica. we survive an ice age with nothing more than a few animals fur and stick. we have conquered the ability to fly into space and to dive into the depths of the ocean. we have build bridges to help us cross rivers and dams to stop those rivers when they threat to flood our cities. we have put down forest fires, we have changed the world climate(and are changing it back again in me) ever since the beginning of time the mankind as dealt with limitation. limitations caused us to advance. earthquae took down your house? you bulid a stronger one that wouldnt collapse or you build one which is light and can easily be rebuilt again.

Enthusiasm aside. Conventional victory is an issue for another thread in the story section. here is a link for the latest one., http://social.biowar...17377063-1.html

Not one word of any of that refutes anything that I've said.

It took decades to adapt. We don't have that kind of time. And this is a force that conquered every other race that tried. And when Cerberus and Saren did the exact same thing you keep proposing, look what happened to them,
You just aren't being realistic here. This is like trying to adapt to a catigory-5 hurricane with nothing but sticks and stones -- it's just not possible. Because these aren't our limitations, created by an environmental change or evolutnary defect. It's a superiour force with malicious intennt. A force of nature that comes diliberately intendending destruction. A power with a will. That's different then any conventional force of nature. You have to stop trivilizing the threat and face facts -- we can't win against the Reapers with the common playbook. Only things like the Crucible have any chance at all.

I have looked it over. I've seen nothing in the realm of plausibility.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 28 septembre 2013 - 06:57 .

[silverexile17s]

erezike wrote...

I just wanted to put it out there. that the reapers we plan for our plot are stronger and smarter than the reapers seen in the original me3.

Even more reason why they wouldn't fall without the Crucible.

[silverexile17s]

Redbelle wrote...

On the subject of indoctrination.... while it is an MP mechanic they did introduce the concept of incod boosters. Which can be disabled. Hundreds of thousands disabled in mulitple ways depending on who and where which can not indoctrinate anyone, and are built to enhance Reaper tech by boosting the broadcast range, or strength of signal.

So if we accept that MP can be applied to story on account that it's supposed to be based in the same MEU, then by cherry picking that mechanic and taking it into the story, we have all the devices needed to reverse engineer the tech and discover how the signal is bossted, and in doing so, discover how the signal may likewise be blocked. It''s a simple escalation of the war in that the Reapers innovate, the opposition counter innovates.

Counter innovation is probably at the heart of the rewrite project, among other things. Because aafter being exposed to Reaper forces and tech, how can a war on a galactic setting not produce innovation's in how to fight it?

It's becoming clear that you see this as a very one sided battle. And it is at the beginning. But saying that it is hopeless is nonsense. The odds are against the galaxy but this time the Reapers lost the element of surprise. They couldn't sweep in and shut down travel and communication. They had to enter via relay and spread out across the galaxy. Certainly the Batarians had the least warning and got thrashed as a result. But every other race seems to have rallied and kept loses down.

It's an up hill struggle. But it would not be dramatic if it weren't. And here in lays the crux of why this rewrite is happening.

This story of Shepard is a dramatic one. It needs drama to fuel it. Victories and defeats to showcase the range of emotion the characters can feel. Challenges so that the interactive aspect of it can rope in a player.

And above all. Layering. So that things can be done along the road to set up the final battle. That doesn't mean creating some one shot device out of thin air. It means creating the character's who have been working unknown in the background who come forth or are discovered who are hostile or friendly. Who are eager to help or not for their own reasons. Who may have a device that can help the war effort that needs another guy, or a part and so on and so forth.

Focusing on the supieriority index of the Reaper as the be all and end all of the writing process is bad writing. Things need to be layered in. It was supposed to be the fleet, I think every gamer once thought. Till they assembled it and discvoered that........nope! All that effort and you still can't beat the Reapers. That may be good story telling in movies. But not in a game. And this is game story writing that needs to rewards gamers for their efforts. Not ignore them and then throw up a character we've never seen or heard from and have them derail the whole story.

If they really wanted a Reaper off swtich. They could have at least made the fleet's. The ground forces, and your squad mates, part of the interactive process to get it.

And while these interaction's may seem small. They are vital to the flavour of ME.

One little detail they overlooked? Shepard Auto Dialogues his way through ordering the fleet to engage. That should have been an interactive choice in the hands of the player. You built up this fleet. Now unleash it.

Everything Reaper-made is an indoc booster. Hell, in the ME2 Codex, it states that the signal turns the body into an indoc booster. Besides, what makes you think "disabled" doesn't mean "internal components fried?" After all, I never hear anything about them being recovered, do I?

Wrong. Because, again, "disabled" is likely in the same sense as the Derilict Reaper -- in that you had to fry the insides completely. Making them both worthless to recover, and thus worthless to study. Because if you deactivate them, they shut down completely and lock down all inetriour tech. It's been stated several times over that disabled or destroyed Reaper-Tech offers no viable research. Only intact & still-active Reaper-Tech can be studied.
Also, that's what Cerberus was doing. And what Saren was doing on Virmire. Tell me, how did that end up for them?
That's rigtht -- they all got indoctrinated. "counter innovate" has failed every single time it's been tried on Reaper-tech.

That's why the project will fail. Because it's the same thing Cerberus and Saren did, and look what it got them. And in the last three years, the most we got from "counter-innovation" was one new gun and several indoctronated factions. Does that sound like equal returns? No -- it's being screwed over big-time. The entire point was that we can't fight this. We go up against them, we're going to lose. Unless we have unconvenional stratagies, we won't survive.

This isn't X-Com. You can't just take the enemies tech and magically use it against them the very next second - Cerberus and Saren stand as testiment to that. Hackett says that it's not possible conventionally. Anderson says the same. So do Saren and the Illusive Man, and they turned out to be right. All thoughout this, we've been told that this was never, ever going to be won through a straight-up fight.
We may know the train's comming right at us. But what does that do for figuring out how to stop it? Because unless you have an emergency break to use now that you can see them coming, you're screwed.
You haven't been on the front lines. You don't get to see the millions that die every second. Garrus tells you entire platoons are getting wiped out in minutes.

It's not an uphill struggle, it's climbing Mount Everest with your bare hands, with no safety gear and no clothes. It's just not possible. It's not "more dramatic," it's unrealistic and just plain suicidal.

Like the fact that you can't win conventionally? That you have to pin your hopes on the unknown while everything else you do is just a stalling effort?  It doesn't get more dramatic then fighting a race that you can't score conventional victory against. We had that same hope in the Crucible, because we knew that nothing else would work.

That's the only thing that worked. Vigil's "Citadel off-switch" data-file was needed to take down Sovergein. This is the same thing on a bigger scale.
And FYI, that's what already happens. It's all focused on one final strike with the Crucible at the core. Yours is the same song and dance, just lacking any chance of having any worthwhile effect on the Reapers.

That's how it's been since the very beginning. You can't change that without rewritting the other two games. It's been established fact that the Reapers were superiour to us in conventional battle. They can't be fought and beaten without something to even the field. They're basically deus ex machina required.
What the hell else did you expect? This is the race that harvested thousands of past races. They made the mass relays and Citade. They made the Collector Base amidst a field of black holes. Just one of them could stand up to the five core Alliance Fleets and hold it's own. They get their armies by taking ours. What the hell did you think conventional firepower would do? Unless you have a secret weapon, fleet battles will lose. I mean, the tone of all three games was that you couldn't beat them head-on. Sovergein was proof of that. Arrival was proof of that.
The story's been derailed since ME2. That game didn't focus enough on preparing for the Reapers. No foundation was layed for galactic war.

They already did. Remember? Space fleet distracts Reapers. Ground forces get to conduit to open Citadel. Squad is part of the spear-tip to the attack.

Which you yourself haven't changed from what ME3 has at all. You've rearranged the order, but you've done nothing to change the "flavor" of ME3. It's still the same, just shaped differently.
Also, the interactions were still there. Your just ignoring them because you were dissipointed that it didn't magically defeat a Reaper with every word.

Why? We already know that conventional victory is impossible. Hackett told you himself that the fleet is nothing but a giant distraction. What's the point in "unleashing" the distraction when you're needed on the ground to get to the Conduit and open the Citadel?