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[silverexile17s]

alleyd wrote...

The rewrite project isn't a trilogy, it is being written as a series and it takes in far more than one person's story. Shepard is one human in charge of a frigate, he does stuff and has to find stuff out and make decisions, but he is not alone and he is a bit player in the bigger picture. It was a one ship special operations unit acting out with the centre of the political and economic spectrum of the Galaxy.

ME1 is far more important than ME2, which has one function, to introduce the cast of characters.

The Universe does not revolve around Shepard and people go about their business, building stuff and researching stuff and you can rest assured that the Galaxy is not the dumb comatose entity that we briefly saw in ME2. The Council etc had no reason to tell Shepard anything, he was allied with a terror organisation that opposed their rule. He was lucky they didn't believe he was a clone and put a bullet in his skull. That is his true level and he knows NADA about wthat the trillions of beings were doing to prepare for the Reapers.

The first act is about educating Shepard in the truth. The Council are keeping the story sealed while they get as much data about the Reapers from Nazara's corpse as possible. The Geth are building a defence mechanism of their own that theortically has the power to out think a Reaper. They remember Nazara's enslavement and how he used them as a slave force. They're doing their bit.

Then you've already failed. You've basically admitted that it's impossible to "seemlessly" rewrite ME3 with the lack of foundation ME2 has -- you'd need more games.
FYI, that never changed. You were still doing that in ME3.

And ME2 should have focused on expanding the factions now that characters were established. Instead, we played shadow war with a terror group.

Look what Shepard did. Shepard's been the behind the seens one-stop matinance crew since the very beginning. The "flaw" your talking about's been present since the very beginning.
The Council didn't believe Shepard. Period. Shepard had been dead for two years. Why believe the commander? And now, Shepard is, seemingly without justifiable reason, working for Cerberus. And Anderson takes you aside and 100% confimrs that that Council doesn't believe in the Reapers. I'm sorry, but you need to face facts -- there is no plan. There is no secret preperation movement. The Council simply didn't believe in the Reapers. The Council hid all information, so no one knows about them. They didn't think they were real. No one even knew they existed.

Anderson told you that nothing of value from Sovergein survived. Something Cerberus and EDI confirm, so you can't say Anderson's lying. Anderson lets you know that not even half of "Nazara" survived or was accounted for, between unathourized salvage, the keepers reprocessing the parts, the destruction upon impact against the Citadel, and possibly the geth taking parts of it back with them, there just isn't enough to make a reasonable study. Hell, there isn't even enough to tell if Sovergein was or wasn't a geth creation.
Wrong. The geth never made any plans to come out and fight. Why would they? What happens to organics isn't their concern -- they would have just huddled up in the Perseus Veil and tried to wait it out.
I'm sorry, but the cold hard truth is that there is no "hidden truth." There's no secret research. There's no secret preperation. The Council didn't believe ib the Reapers. No one else knew they existed.

[Erez Kristal]

You have to think more positve about things silverexile. find the good in things instead of the bad.
Mass effect 2 was a great success, it did almost everything right.(With the exception of kidnapping the crew) People like to talk about how it didnt do enough to advance the plot. i say whats the hurry?
it was a fun game that great exapnded the world of the mass effect universe and turn it into the beloved franchise which we all know and love. it advanced the plot as much as it needed. it thought you about galactic politics. about how the system alliance play a double game with cerberus and the counci. it thought you more about the geth, it gave you a better understanding about cerberus whos exprimenst and actions have always been conducted with the better of humanity in its heart. it thought you about the protheans and their fate. it thought you about how the reaper harvest organics. it gave threads to new sources of power through the shadow broker and prothean galaxy. it set the way for a krogan army at shepard command. and if you look at mass effect2 like you would look on any mature story in life you would understand.

Mass effect was never rated m for nudity or violence, because it would score T on both. it was rated M because you have to be mature to understand the hidden concepts in the story.

Like the fact shepard was on the need to know basis from the illusive man and anderson. just like shepard was in mass effect 1 before going to eden prime.

If a character tells you something you know isnt true hes either lying or misinformed.
At the beginning of mass effect 2. jacob can tell you, you took down a bunch of cerberus operations. if you didnt. jacob was simply mis-informed.

Anderson lies to you about saren in mass effect 1. anderson lies about differnt things. and thats ok because hes just a man.

[Redbelle]

@ silver....

So what you are saying, is that Anderson, Cerberus and EDI tell you nothing of value of Sovvy survived?

Yet they admit that they do not have all the pieces.... So something might have survived. But has just been removed by a party that they do not have authority over. So it is not impossible to assume that something could have survived. And that Anderson, Cerberus and EDI just don't now about it.

Unauthorised salvage may have parts in a storage that the Alliance niether tracked nor know about that may arise at a later date.

Keeper's reprocessing parts leads to the quiestion of where the Keepers come from to process these parts. How do keepers reprocess parts? Do they dissemble them on the spot? Drag them somewhere? Questions, Questions! To which a writer can begin to draw out answers.

The Geth taking parts back with them. What are they doing with the parts? What parts are they? Are the parts they have of no value? Or do they have something? Does it stay in heretic hands or do the True Geth move in and seize it? Does this information reach the migrant fleet and have an effect on the Quarians?

All these possibilities do exist. Therefore, when Anderson, Cerberus and EDI tell you they don't have access to anything useful...... Do they have a full catalogue of all the piece's to say that there is nothing from every piece of Sovvy that is useful. Or are they saying that, to the best of their knowledge, there is nothing useful, fro the limited parts they were able to accumulate?

Because if they are working off limited access to the total sum of Sovvy. Then the rewrite team have a way to find Reaper tech from Sovvy's body that is being held in the hands of third parties.

You must be able to see a way how a start from scratch rewrite of ME3 can make use of this important distinction. You could probably whip up a mission based on this logic yourself.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

@ silverexile - I am The Illusive Woman. Think of what we could learn. Think of what we could achieve. The difference between the The Illusive Man and me is that The Illusive Man was a mere character in the story, not a writer.

[silverexile17s]

erezike wrote...

You have to think more positve about things silverexile. find the good in things instead of the bad.
Mass effect 2 was a great success, it did almost everything right.(With the exception of kidnapping the crew) People like to talk about how it didnt do enough to advance the plot. i say whats the hurry?
it was a fun game that great exapnded the world of the mass effect universe and turn it into the beloved franchise which we all know and love. it advanced the plot as much as it needed. it thought you about galactic politics. about how the system alliance play a double game with cerberus and the counci. it thought you more about the geth, it gave you a better understanding about cerberus whos exprimenst and actions have always been conducted with the better of humanity in its heart. it thought you about the protheans and their fate. it thought you about how the reaper harvest organics. it gave threads to new sources of power through the shadow broker and prothean galaxy. it set the way for a krogan army at shepard command. and if you look at mass effect2 like you would look on any mature story in life you would understand.

Mass effect was never rated m for nudity or violence, because it would score T on both. it was rated M because you have to be mature to understand the hidden concepts in the story.

Like the fact shepard was on the need to know basis from the illusive man and anderson. just like shepard was in mass effect 1 before going to eden prime.

If a character tells you something you know isnt true hes either lying or misinformed.
At the beginning of mass effect 2. jacob can tell you, you took down a bunch of cerberus operations. if you didnt. jacob was simply mis-informed.

Anderson lies to you about saren in mass effect 1. anderson lies about differnt things. and thats ok because hes just a man.

They don't exist for this project -- not with the direction you're trying to go. I'm not being "negative," I'm being realistic -- The Reapers aren't possible to defeat in conventional warefare. They never were and they never will be.

No it didn't. It was completely detached from the series. It's filler. More a sidequel then a sequel. The fact that it was a good game makes it worse, as all that character development amounts to nothing in the grand scheme of things -- and before you even say it, that's how it was long before ME3 ever released.

And the hurry is that there's only three games to do this in. If there had been four games in the series, then I;d agree with you. But there aren't, so you HAVE to hurry, and make every second count. ME2 didn't. It spent too much time being it's own game rather the a piece of a trilogy. So much so that ME3 suffered from it because the narative had to be sped up to compensate for the lack of elaboration and war-foundation in ME2. It's one of the core reasons ME3's narrative was the way it is now, and can't be fixed unless you rewrite ME2 as well. End of story.
Only because the game is nothing but filler. A EU story that doesn't really do anything in the long run for the main plot. You are blowing ME2's importance way out of proportion and giving it far too much credit. It was too isoslated from the main series, and spent all our time and resources fighting a symptom rather then the cause. It should have been a sidequal, or part of a four-game series.
It showed you nothing about politics. Because most of the game, you spent it in the lawless Terminus systems, where politics don't apply. You didn't connect with any of the main factions. You didn't build any bridges, lay any foundations, learn anything about the interactions between the other groups. 
Um.... you do realize that Anderson was acting indepentandly, right? The Alliance wasn't "playing a double-game" because they weren't intrested in getting anywhere near Shepard -- Udina's temperment to Shepard's return is representitive of that. If anything, the Council either plays teachers pet with the Council (Paragon ME1) or is constantly infighting with them (Renagade ME1).
Yeah -- we learned the geth screwed us over by letting the Heretics attack us and not claim any responcibility for them. And that they had Reaper information from Sovergein that they never shared. And that they had suspicions about the Reapers being a bio-technological race.
Um.... that's no different then how Cerberus was portrayed in ME1 -- a group that went rouge because of conflicts of intrest with the Council. And besides, the comics that pre-dated ME2's release do a fair job of explaining that on their own.
James Vega learned the same thing about the Collectors at Fel Prime from a single prothean beacon, in one sitting. The release of "Mass Effect: Paragon Lost" and James' backstory in general renders that revelation a triviality.
James also learned about the Reaper's harvesting methods from that same beacon.
Liara would have given you those resources anyway, since she'd go after the Shadow Broker weather you help her or not. That was the atmosphere she gave off in ME2. Again, nothing game-changing there.
No if didn't. You come begging on your hands and knees to let them accept a tank-bread krogan -- typcially a taboo for them. And even if you saved Wrex in the last game, it all boils down to "I've got my own people to worry about." Because keeping your own safe will always take precidence over helping complete strangers like the humans, or bitter enemies like the turians and salarians. And you didn't do jack to eliveate any of those feelings among the krogan. Also, Mordin spicifically notes that he could easily recreate Maelon's formula, although it would take longer. Meaning you didn't really make any major headway on that either, since it's still easily curible from Mordin's POV.
I think you've got that backwards. If you look at ME2 in relation to the trilogy and the overall story, you would understand -- the fundimental flaws in how detached it was from the main plot were the basis of ME3's problems with rushed narrative.

No. It was rateed "M for Mature" because of: Blood, drug refrence, sexual content, strong language, and violence. IDK if you realize this, but some of the deepest RPG stories like Star Wars: KOTOR and Baldur's Gate -- those are rated "T for Teen.' " mature to understand the hidden concepts in the story" has absolutly jack-all to do with the rating of the game. The strippers, sex-scenes, drug refrences, chain-drinking and Jack's foul-mouth were the reason the game got that rating. Nothing more, and nothing less. You're reading way too much into it.

Anderson never did that to Shepard unless he had no choice. The Illusive Man did so unessessarily.

Dude -- Andeson isn't Jacob. Jacob is an agent that doesn't have access to the high-end records. Anderson is. And no matter what you do, Anderson's responce stays the saim -- the majority of Sovergein was not recovered, and the Council dismissed the existance of the Reapers.
He's got no reason to lie about Sovergein. Lying about theCouncil's beliefs on Sovergein wouod hinder Shepard's movements. Better to let the Commander know ahead of time that there is no plan in the works. It's better to know you don't have a parachute before you jump. And with his position -either as Admiral or Councilor- he possesses the athourity to tell Shepard about any such plans.
Just face it -- there's no plan. The Council didn;t believe in the Reapers.

[silverexile17s]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

@ silverexile - I am The Illusive Woman. Think of what we could learn. Think of what we could achieve. The difference between the The Illusive Man and me is that The Illusive Man was a mere character in the story, not a writer.

And you won't end up any different then him. Your just making the same mistakes he did -- it's the same song to a different tune. Unless you rewrite ME2's plot to be more relivent, it's just going to all fall through -- one game isn't enough to compensate for the lack of foundation that ME2 left ME3.

Unless you plan to forget the "rewrite of the single game" and pull a "StarCraft" and split the game into "Chapter I & II," I don't see this ever working. You just can't build enough of a foundation for what you keep proposing with just one game.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 29 septembre 2013 - 05:27 .

[silverexile17s]

Redbelle wrote...

@ silver....

So what you are saying, is that Anderson, Cerberus and EDI tell you nothing of value of Sovvy survived?

Yet they admit that they do not have all the pieces.... So something might have survived. But has just been removed by a party that they do not have authority over. So it is not impossible to assume that something could have survived. And that Anderson, Cerberus and EDI just don't now about it.

Unauthorised salvage may have parts in a storage that the Alliance niether tracked nor know about that may arise at a later date.

Keeper's reprocessing parts leads to the quiestion of where the Keepers come from to process these parts. How do keepers reprocess parts? Do they dissemble them on the spot? Drag them somewhere? Questions, Questions! To which a writer can begin to draw out answers.

The Geth taking parts back with them. What are they doing with the parts? What parts are they? Are the parts they have of no value? Or do they have something? Does it stay in heretic hands or do the True Geth move in and seize it? Does this information reach the migrant fleet and have an effect on the Quarians?

All these possibilities do exist. Therefore, when Anderson, Cerberus and EDI tell you they don't have access to anything useful...... Do they have a full catalogue of all the piece's to say that there is nothing from every piece of Sovvy that is useful. Or are they saying that, to the best of their knowledge, there is nothing useful, fro the limited parts they were able to accumulate?

Because if they are working off limited access to the total sum of Sovvy. Then the rewrite team have a way to find Reaper tech from Sovvy's body that is being held in the hands of third parties.

You must be able to see a way how a start from scratch rewrite of ME3 can make use of this important distinction. You could probably whip up a mission based on this logic yourself.

Nothing on the scale you think it did.

All the Citadel races could recover was enough to make the Thanix -- one new weapon from three years of study. Whoop-de-do.
All Cerberus could create was EDI -- one single A.I.
So, one A.I. and one weapon. I wouldn't call that equal returns. Anderson says that "not even half" of Sovergein survived. They have fragemented pieces of the thing, but none of them are in much of a working order. I mean, or all the pieces left of the thing, you actually think much of that will be intact or usible? Let alone the fact that the majority of the ship is unaccounted for.
Anderson says that the Keepers recycled alot of the ships remains. Any "unathourized salvage" would likely lead back to Cerberus -- which again, only resulted in one A.I. since most of the salvage would likely be charred, useless scrap.

Once again. you assume that the parts of Sovergein would be in prestine condition. Likely, they would not. After being blown apart and with the pieces crashing into the Citadel, most of Sovergein would likely be fried -- nothing more then landfill or scrap.The precious internal components wouldn't be salvagible.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. It's all in the Codex -- the Keepers come from protien vats in the Citadel. They're an artifcal race, likely cloned or created synthetically. Like the Collectors. And all material they take is processed and broken down into raw material, then reformated through fabricators into new plating for the Citadel to repair the station with. They can basically take any matter -- organic or synthetic -- and turn it into new plates, conduits, or pannels for the Citadel. So in truth, there's nothing to "drag out" since it's already explained in diolouge and Codex entries from ME1 and ME2.

Salvage. How do you think the Heretics maintained any sort of presence after ME1? Or deciphered Sovergein's black box to format their Virus? They likely had something leftover from the ship. And since the geth were a declining enemy in the Terminus, being reduced to "scattered pockets of resistance," they obviously didn't have anything of value - likely masses of scrap with the occasional circut. Same as the Alliance or Cerberus. Otherwise, if they had better pieces of Sovergein, they would have used it already. Besides, they had the living example in ME1 and look what that got them in terms of advancement. Nothing.

Wrong. You're just blowing it out of proportion. Out of all the surviving pieces of Sovergein, most of it would be charred armor or useless scrap. All the functioning pieces were likely used in EDI or the creation of the Thanix prototype, since no new Reaper-based tech besides those were developed in the two years between the first and second game.
Yes, they'd have a cataloug. It would simply require calculating the mass of Sovergein, then deducting the mass of each part from the total mass of the ship, until you have the entire total mass of Sovergein accounted for. Something the salarians could figure out from sensor readings of Sovergein.
Anderson's word is accurate in that. And with how Sovergein exploded, and how impact damage would have affected every part of it that hit the Citadel, very little of it would be in any working contdition. If two years later they haven't got the rest of the ship, then chances are that there's nothing left to recover -- the rest was either recycled by the keepers, or when recovered was too damaged to study and subsiquently scrapped.

There's nothing left to do that with. Sovergein's gone. What wasn't recovered by Cerberus and the Council got recycled by the keepers, grabbed by the geth in their retreat, shattered on impact with the Citadel, or disintegrated from the explosion of the ship. And most of what survived would be useless hunks of scrap metal anyway from all the damage the blast and impact with the Citadel would do to them.

No, I don't. You'd need rewrite of ME2 to do that, not just ME3. Like I keep saying, ME2 didn't leave enough of a foundation for ME3, hence the problems ME3 had with narrative pacing. And blowing things out of proportion like this doesn't help the matter -- it just creates more flaws.

[Erez Kristal]

We are not going to rewrite me2 plot. we are rewriting me3 plot and beyond, nothing which will be said here is ever going to change that. if you wish to create an alternate me2 plot feel free to do so. please try to keep a positive attidue and avoid any attempts to create back and forth flaming on this thread.

Modifié par erezike, 29 septembre 2013 - 06:06 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

silverexile17s wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

@ silverexile - I am The Illusive Woman. Think of what we could learn. Think of what we could achieve. The difference between the The Illusive Man and me is that The Illusive Man was a mere character in the story, not a writer.

And you won't end up any different then him. Your just making the same mistakes he did -- it's the same song to a different tune. Unless you rewrite ME2's plot to be more relivent, it's just going to all fall through -- one game isn't enough to compensate for the lack of foundation that ME2 left ME3.

Unless you plan to forget the "rewrite of the single game" and pull a "StarCraft" and split the game into "Chapter I & II," I don't see this ever working. You just can't build enough of a foundation for what you keep proposing with just one game.

You could say that we are pulling a StarCraft and doing a split into two parts. The overarching plot is simply too big for a single game. There was no foundation built anywhere really. We have to build that foundation, and even this isn't going to be a 20 hr campaign for the first part. It's big. 

[Redbelle]

Silver, In your response you wrote yourself into a corner. If the story needs extra Reaper research then you think of a way to write it in.

You seem eager to write out the possibilities. Saying that what isn't recoverable by the Alliance and Cerberus is scrap? How and why do we know this? Because we've already established that Anderson and the rest are not talking to Shepard with perfect knowledge of the location and status of all of Sovvy's piece's. We also know that Shepard is working for Cerberus and that Anderson knows this. And in ME1 it was established that Cerberus is a terrorist organisation...... Anderson has responsibilities to not allow information from the Alliance into said organisation and now Shepard is a conduit that could allow that.......

Despite being hammered by weapons fire and crashing through a planet there was much of the Normandy that survived. Broken though it may be. And the SR2 demonstrated how a ship could be repaired from crashing. Then there is Jacob's Dad's ship that still had power flowing to terminals that allowed records to be located etc etc.

Now seriously. free up you mind and look at the project within the parameter's set. The possibilities being discussed and the rationale behind them cannot be dismissed out of hand on account that they are possiblities, out of a range of possibilites in the direction scenes can take.

A scene with Shepard and Anderson in ME3 where they, for example, reveal a new piece of Reaper engineered tech.

Anderson "Here's something you might like. We recovered it from a private research firm a few years back. It's based on something they recovered from Soveriegn.".

Shepard "I thought you said we didn't get much of Sovereign after the attack".

A "Don't take it personally Shepard. Everyone thought you were part of a terrorist group at the time. I had to keep certain information from you".

S "Cerberus tend to know more than they should".

A "Did they ever tell you about this"?

"No".

"Then either they didn't know or they didn't tell you. Either way, Cerberus aren't all powerful when it comes to gathering information, it seems".

Modifié par Redbelle, 29 septembre 2013 - 07:08 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Exactly, alleyd. We have never said this was a trilogy. Bioware tried to tell a story in a trilogy that couldn't be told in a trilogy. I've said this numerous times.

And you're technically not correct about the Geth. They were planning to fight against the reapers from their Dyson Sphere which they were originally supposed to have had time to complete. Then Chris L'Etoile left and things changed. Chris said they would have been in contact with the Quarians via QE. The tech power of that structure was to have been enormous. He had envisioned a Quarian Live ship about to ram a Sovereign class reaper and the Geth created a singularity that swallowed the reaper and saved the Quarians. Wormhole technology.

So like we've said Shepard is just one person. We've gotten one viewpoint, essentially a microshot of the entire galaxy. There are so many other threads going on you cannot possibly cover them all from one viewpoint.

[TheMyron]

I agree, the MEU is too big to fit on only three games. And I thinks its stupid to apply different sources (i.e. Comic books, cartoons, etc) and then call them "canon".

[silverexile17s]

erezike wrote...

We are not going to rewrite me2 plot. we are rewriting me3 plot and beyond, nothing which will be said here is ever going to change that. if you wish to create an alternate me2 plot feel free to do so. please try to keep a positive attidue and avoid any attempts to create back and forth flaming on this thread.

Not possible without rewrite of ME2.
"Nothing whcih will be said here is ever going to change that."

I have no wish to rewrite it. I simply didn't want to see this project crash and burn -- which it will if you just keep ignoring the fact that ME2's faults in narrative led to ME3's.
I can't keep a "positive attitude" when this will fail if you simply rewrtie one game. Unelss you split ME3 into more then one game, it's not going to work. There's just too much to do then what can be squeezed into one game. Unless you shatter ME3 into two or more seperate games like StarCraft II did, I don't see much hope.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 30 septembre 2013 - 05:01 .

[silverexile17s]

alleyd wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Then you've already failed. You've basically admitted that it's impossible to "seemlessly" rewrite ME3 with the lack of foundation ME2 has -- you'd need more games.
FYI, that never changed. You were still doing that in ME3.

I never set the parameters.  nor claimed it was a trilogy. The plot I was working on carried forward from the end point of ME2 with the full cast of characters. In that it was a seemless continuation from the end point of the dramtic arc. I canoned that DLC marketing strategies were included in game text. The one mission that impacted on the cast was my starting point and it ran in real time. No dropped spaces for Jack to get hair extensions etc :-)

silverexile17s wrote...
And ME2 should have focused on expanding the factions now that characters were established. Instead, we played shadow war with a terror group.

I agree, ME 2 did nothing to move the plot forward in myeyes, I am not fixated on this being any more important in the bigger picture than it deserves. One small "rebel" group acting outwith the remit of the larger galactic community

silverexile17s wrote...
Look what Shepard did. Shepard's been the behind the seens one-stop matinance crew since the very beginning. The "flaw" your talking about's been present since the very beginning.

The Council didn't believe Shepard. Period. Shepard had been dead for two years. Why believe the commander? And now, Shepard is, seemingly without justifiable reason, working for Cerberus. And Anderson takes you aside and 100% confimrs that that Council doesn't believe in the Reapers. I'm sorry, but you need to face facts -- there is no plan. There is no secret preperation movement. The Council simply didn't believe in the Reapers. The Council hid all information, so no one knows about them. They didn't think they were real. No one even knew they existed.

And politicians lie, especially to an enemy of the state that is miraculoulsy reappeared from the dead. Citadel DLC confirmed that the Council acknowledged the Reapers. They buried the data in the Vaults under Spectre Authority. Classified the data, making it Top Secret. This is open acknowledgement in game that the Council were denying Top Secret data and research to 3 members of a terrorist organisation.  Nothing more, you can take things on face value all you like. I've learnt to read subtext and look beyond obvious falsehoods. The belief that a political organisation would ignore an open attacj of the sort they experienced and not act is very hard to believe. No political group in history has ever ignored such an attack.

silverexile17s wrote...
Anderson told you that nothing of value from Sovergein survived. Something Cerberus and EDI confirm, so you can't say Anderson's lying. Anderson lets you know that not even half of "Nazara" survived or was accounted for, between unathourized salvage, the keepers reprocessing the parts, the destruction upon impact against the Citadel, and possibly the geth taking parts of it back with them, there just isn't enough to make a reasonable study. Hell, there isn't even enough to tell if Sovergein was or wasn't a geth creation.

Andersons exact words were " "We don't have much to look at. Pieces of it rained all over the station. It was chaos. With who knows how many species combing the wards for their dead. We secured as much of it as we could, but between the keepers and a whole lot of unauthorised salvage, there's no way to account for even half of that thing. Another Reason why they don't want to acknowledge what Soveriegn was"  

So you don't get the quote right, how do you expect me to accept your headcanoning.? The Council failed to secure their defences and secure thousands?? Millions of tonnes?? of advanced technology. Unauthorised salvage essentially means black market smuggling and trading. The Council couldn't police the station effectively and they are controlling the message of their failure. Another reason to suspect a conspiracy.

silverexile17s wrote...
Wrong. The geth never made any plans to come out and fight. Why would they? What happens to organics isn't their concern -- they would have just huddled up in the Perseus Veil and tried to wait it out.
I'm sorry, but the cold hard truth is that there is no "hidden truth." There's no secret research. There's no secret preperation. The Council didn't believe ib the Reapers. No one else knew they existed.

They built the largest and most powerful Dreadnought for a reason, also they were building a Dyson Sphere or Bubble, something even the writer's acknowledge at one point had the capacity to exceed the processing power of a Reaper. The True Geth knew the Reapers had no use for them and didn't share their goals, conflicty was inevitable once they invaded. A planet sized network of AI that get exponentially smarter the more platforms are added. Reapers may have more individual processing power, but they are super computers. Billions of geth linked in a network? Processing powerone vast network.

On the subject of reverse engineering. One aspect of the Reapers would be relatively easy to reverse engineer, that is their armour. When you have a physical example for materials testing and analysis, the process of research begins and the Reapers must be made of something that exists in Nature, not some fantasy wishuponastarium material. 


In any case, neither of us is technically correct. Different interpretations and opinions, I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of accepting things on face value. I excercise my right to use my own imagination as a fan and believe there are threads that are external to the player. One Human being, the universe doiesn't revolve around him/her and the world doesn't stop when you leave the room. 

1) Then you admit that you can't do this with ME3 alone. You'd have to create an entire new story between the timeframes to make it work -- ME2 just didn't leave enough foundation.
You've already admitted just now that it can't be "seemless" with just three games. There's too much to explain.
But that's implasuible. Running it all in "real-time" runs the risk of it all becoming a big mess. You need pacing caused by time-lapses. Otherwise it all runs together in one big soup. It won't be "seemless."

2) The only way I see that could do that would be to do what "StarCraft II" did -- split ME3 into two, possibly three chapters to represent the finale to the series. That way, you could at least fix the pacing issue of the narrative. Time-lapses of about two, maybe three months per game, maybe?

3) But Anderson doesn't play politics. ME1 proved that when he helped steal the Normandy -- politics can take a flying leap for all he cares. Lying about something like that would serve no purpose, other then to screw Shepard over -- the one thing Anderson would never do.
Wrong. Citadel DLC confimred that they filed away the truth. They ackonolwdged it as a theroy, but not a possibility. IDK if you know this, but half the things in that archive were things hidden from the public. Things that the Council either wanted hidden, or wanted to forget. Sovergein was the latter -- the entry was for posterity. Nothing more and nothing less.
The reason for that was because they counted it as a myth. One that would only spread superstitoius panic among people if it got out. They figured Sovergein wasn't real, so no one needed to start a panic about something that didn't exist. You are making the Council far too noble then they really were. They didn't believe in the Reapers, so they figured no one else needed to worry about a simple myth. Nothing more, nothing less. Besides, Anderson could have privately taken you aside once you regain Spectre status and shown you the things -- he'd trust you not to tell Cerberus. As Admiral/Councilor, the Council wouldn't be able to do jack to stop him.
Face it -- you're grasping at straws here. The Council never had any plan. They never had any secret goal. They were just ignorant about the Reapers. There were no "obvious falsehoods," because Anderson makes sure you know that. Also, I remind you that if these things existed, Liara would have told you about them, both before AND after becoming the Shadow Broker. She didn't, because they didn't exist.
Also, I must remind you that the Council did with the geth. They didn't send a fleet to torch the Perseus Veil in responce to the attack on the Citadel. I mean, you're huminizing the Council too damn much --- they've got multiple political powers to maintai, it's not just one. Diverting any resources that could be used to sustain them, especally toward unproven myths, is political suicide, both in public and in closed doors.
Oh, and the Council did the same with the Batarians in "Mass Effect: Galaxy." Attempt to kill the entire Council with a bio-weapon? No retaliation whatsoever against the Batarians.

Also, ou seem to have forgotton that the entire point of working for Cerberus was because the Council had no plan. That was the entire core principle of ME2 -- working with Cerberus because they were the only group doing anything
to prep for the Reapers. Liara's info net, and later on her Shadow Broker network, show the Council doesn't consider the Reapers a threat, since they haven't done anything in both secret or private. Cerberus and Anderson both corrilate the same from their respective sides of the fence -- the Council isn't doing anything.
Sorry, but the truth stands -- they don't do anything if it casts a shadow on their reputation, or if there isn't solid, irrifutible evidence. The lengths you had to go to expose Saren in ME1 and to fight the Collectors on your own in ME2 should be proof of that.

4) Wrong. You didn't get that right.
First off -- It's the same thing. Saying that there isn't much to look it is saying that there isn't much of Sovergein around to study. He in that same sentance stated that between the keepers and the salvage, not even half of Sovergein was recovered.
Second -- just look at the explosion. Just how much of Sovergien would be in prestine condition? Most of the thing would be charred slag, irrepairable. Charred steel. Melted slag. Nothing intact enough to study. I mean, two and a half years later, all there is was the Thanix. That's it. On Cerberus's end, there is EDI. One single A.I. That's it. All that "advanced technology" you're fantisising about is mostly burnt-out wreckage. Anything that could be studied already was -- that's where the thanix came from. All you're doing is grasping at straws -- there's nothing left of real value. Anything that didn't get pulverized on impact with the station or recycled by the keepers was melted into slag by Sovergien's explosive death. What little of value that did survive has already been used, and hasn't gotten us far.


5) To protect THEMSELVES. I mean, the True Geth didn't shed any tears when the Heretics carved a bloody swath through the Attican Traverse and Skyllian Verge. Hell, they didn't even give a warrning or try to mutigate the damage in any way, shape or form.
They were building a dyson sphere to evolve THEMSELVES. They wanted a centralized existance -- free of interfearance form other races. The geth didn't care about us, as long as we didn't interfere in their matters. Hence why everyone that ever went into the Veil turned up dead -- they didn't tolerate intruders in their borders. And FYI, the dyson sphere would be able to potentally exceed a Reaper. And even then, it would only be one Reaper. Not the entire collective Reaper fleet working in tandum.
You assume that ment they would side with organics? Why? What use would that serve them? They would diminish resources on aiding others when they could more easily consolidate resources on a centeralized base of operations. And you forget that the Reapers are the same. It's mentioned more then once in both ME1 and ME2 that the Reapers are capable of wireless contact with each-other like any other machine race is. Hell, in ME3, it was confirmed that they operated on a similar internetworked conciousness -- the Catalyst being the avatar of that. Even if you ignore ME3, ME1 and ME2 both already confirm that the Reapers can internetwork the same as the geth. So the geth have no advantage.

No, it wouldn't. The material is incredably dense, and, since there is only one Capital Reaper every 50,000 years, the material is likely very resource-expesive to make. It takes the collective resources of the entire galaxy to make one Sovergein-Class and five to six Destroyer-Class. And the Reapers don't have to worry about time constraints -- we do. Meaning producing our own Reaper-armor is unfeisble. It would likely cost as muct as an entire dreadnought to armor a single light frigate. Also, the Reapers can create ME fields strong enough to resist the pull of black holes.  We don't have that kind of power, so we can't ever hope to compact the materials into the hyper-dense armor of a Reaper to begin with.

I respectfully disagree with that observation. The pre-established lore of the past games is a constant. You can't ignore those without rewriting the last two games, and it becomes a continious domino effect. The lore is fact here -- I'm just showing how it contridicts your ideas.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 30 septembre 2013 - 11:20 .

[silverexile17s]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Exactly, alleyd. We have never said this was a trilogy. Bioware tried to tell a story in a trilogy that couldn't be told in a trilogy. I've said this numerous times.

And you're technically not correct about the Geth. They were planning to fight against the reapers from their Dyson Sphere which they were originally supposed to have had time to complete. Then Chris L'Etoile left and things changed. Chris said they would have been in contact with the Quarians via QE. The tech power of that structure was to have been enormous. He had envisioned a Quarian Live ship about to ram a Sovereign class reaper and the Geth created a singularity that swallowed the reaper and saved the Quarians. Wormhole technology.

So like we've said Shepard is just one person. We've gotten one viewpoint, essentially a microshot of the entire galaxy. There are so many other threads going on you cannot possibly cover them all from one viewpoint.

In other words, you've basically admitted that one game's worth of rewrite isn't enough.
And you might want to look over the responce I gave @alleyd regarding those responces.

Okay, I'm kinda glad that plan was dropped -- it's beyond impossible without massive amounts of power. More then the geth could both attain, or get the tech to channel said power into anything even comming close to that. And if the get did build a dyson sphere that could do that, it would syphon away solar energy from Rannoch, damaging what little ecosystem the world would have left at that point.

And last I checked, they all in one way or another converged on Shepard. That was the case even in ME2.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I read the response, and I'm also choosing to ignore some of the myths about the reapers. There is a lot that we do not know is true. All I can say is that you shall see. I cannot PM you. But I will tell you this. Things aren't always what they seem, and I will ask you a question. Has a package you ordered ever not arrived when you thought it would, but instead took a lot longer?

[silverexile17s]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I read the response, and I'm also choosing to ignore some of the myths about the reapers. There is a lot that we do not know is true. All I can say is that you shall see. I cannot PM you. But I will tell you this. Things aren't always what they seem, and I will ask you a question. Has a package you ordered ever not arrived when you thought it would, but instead took a lot longer?

But they ALL were true in one way or another. Sovergein solidly confirmed all our fears about the Reapers power -- there aren't any "myths" left to fall back on.

So far, all I can see is that you're likely just going to ignore anything that has anything to do with what we know about the Reapers from past games and cherry-pick traits of theirs in an attempt to "conventionallize" them. In ME1, it was confirmed how terrifyingly powerful the Reapers were, and that conventional methods would never claim us victory over them. That's been a fact since ME1. Not a myth - a fact.

Tell "things aren't always what they seem" to Sovergein. Because he was taking on all five of the key Alliance fleets until the psi-backlash from the Saren-Husk's death. That seems to pretty damn well confirm that everything we feared about the Reapers has been 100% true.

NO. I've never been in a situation like that in my life where it "took a lot longer." And Again, with the strength of Reaper ME fields being able to negate black holes in large amounts, they could completely negate their entire mass, making them able to move as fast as a fighter through FTL. Add to that they are millions of years beyond us with propulsion systems that outclass ours by miles, and that they have extra power to add to movement speed because they don't need weapons or barriers in dark space, and them arriving three years later is more then plasuible. Especally since its never confirmed just how far out in dark space the Reapers were. If anything, they should have been here sooner.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

silverexile17s wrote...

NO. I've never been in a situation like that in my life where it "took a lot longer." And Again, with the strength of Reaper ME fields being able to negate black holes in large amounts, they could completely negate their entire mass, making them able to move as fast as a fighter through FTL. Add to that they are millions of years beyond us with propulsion systems that outclass ours by miles, and that they have extra power to add to movement speed because they don't need weapons or barriers in dark space, and them arriving three years later is more then plasuible. Especally since its never confirmed just how far out in dark space the Reapers were. If anything, they should have been here sooner.

Then you have been very lucky. I had a guitar that was shipped to me via UPS and took a month. It should have taken 5 days. It arrived in pieces. It was in the UPS hub for 3 weeks. I guess they were trying to figure out what to do with it after they dropped it 12 feet and ran over it with the forklift. 

Perhaps a better example would be that you put a bunch of stuff in your grocery cart including a nice T-bone steak and other items to go with it, but when you arrived at home, you discovered the steak was missing, and when you checked your receipt, the checker didn't ring it up?

I know that has happened to me on several occasions. Sometimes it was the steak. Sometimes it was something else.

Think about it and try not to reason why that's wrong.

[silverexile17s]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

NO. I've never been in a situation like that in my life where it "took a lot longer." And Again, with the strength of Reaper ME fields being able to negate black holes in large amounts, they could completely negate their entire mass, making them able to move as fast as a fighter through FTL. Add to that they are millions of years beyond us with propulsion systems that outclass ours by miles, and that they have extra power to add to movement speed because they don't need weapons or barriers in dark space, and them arriving three years later is more then plasuible. Especally since its never confirmed just how far out in dark space the Reapers were. If anything, they should have been here sooner.

Then you have been very lucky. I had a guitar that was shipped to me via UPS and took a month. It should have taken 5 days. It arrived in pieces. It was in the UPS hub for 3 weeks. I guess they were trying to figure out what to do with it after they dropped it 12 feet and ran over it with the forklift. 

Perhaps a better example would be that you put a bunch of stuff in your grocery cart including a nice T-bone steak and other items to go with it, but when you arrived at home, you discovered the steak was missing, and when you checked your receipt, the checker didn't ring it up?

I know that has happened to me on several occasions. Sometimes it was the steak. Sometimes it was something else.

Think about it and try not to reason why that's wrong.

Sorry, but I will reason why, and this is that reason.

First - That's a freak accident. And I must remind you that's hardly the case for the rest of the world -- 9 times out of 10, packages arrive in the expected amount of time, barring the miraculous or the unexpected. Same is true of the Reapers -- nothing but a field of black holes in their path would give the delay that you seem to think they'd have. I mean, dark space is an open field with zero obstacles to obstruct their path, and no worlds to worry about frying with drive discharges, meaning it's a straight shot to the galaxy with nothing in the way.

Once again, same thing -- Freak accident, and it happens in the minority. Besides, the few times that happened to me, it was out of my own negliance -- I'd left items on some godforsaken isle while rearranging them. I even found it in the same damn spot when I came back the next day. So no, that example isn't really relivent to me, nor does it provide any better an example. I've never been in a situation where a cashier forgot to ring up a purchase.

...Then again, half my purchases are doen via self-checkout since that's more convient, so I guess that balances out. But the point is I haven't been in a situation where it was anyone's fault but mine that something was left out or forgotten.

I'm sorry, but none of that is any convincing arguement -- if anything, it's proof of what I said. Freak accidents like that are uncommon, And there isn't any freak accident that's going to stop or delay the Reaper's arrival all the way out in the empty reaches of dark space. There's nothing out there to cause a delay with. It's all empty space. Your example still rings false because there isn't even one single thing out there in the empty dark space that could cause such inconvince to the Reapers on their way here.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 01 octobre 2013 - 02:49 .

[silverexile17s]

Redbelle wrote...

Silver, In your response you wrote yourself into a corner. If the story needs extra Reaper research then you think of a way to write it in.

You seem eager to write out the possibilities. Saying that what isn't recoverable by the Alliance and Cerberus is scrap? How and why do we know this? Because we've already established that Anderson and the rest are not talking to Shepard with perfect knowledge of the location and status of all of Sovvy's piece's. We also know that Shepard is working for Cerberus and that Anderson knows this. And in ME1 it was established that Cerberus is a terrorist organisation...... Anderson has responsibilities to not allow information from the Alliance into said organisation and now Shepard is a conduit that could allow that.......

Despite being hammered by weapons fire and crashing through a planet there was much of the Normandy that survived. Broken though it may be. And the SR2 demonstrated how a ship could be repaired from crashing. Then there is Jacob's Dad's ship that still had power flowing to terminals that allowed records to be located etc etc.

Now seriously. free up you mind and look at the project within the parameter's set. The possibilities being discussed and the rationale behind them cannot be dismissed out of hand on account that they are possiblities, out of a range of possibilites in the direction scenes can take.

A scene with Shepard and Anderson in ME3 where they, for example, reveal a new piece of Reaper engineered tech.

Anderson "Here's something you might like. We recovered it from a private research firm a few years back. It's based on something they recovered from Soveriegn.".

Shepard "I thought you said we didn't get much of Sovereign after the attack".

A "Don't take it personally Shepard. Everyone thought you were part of a terrorist group at the time. I had to keep certain information from you".

S "Cerberus tend to know more than they should".

A "Did they ever tell you about this"?

"No".

"Then either they didn't know or they didn't tell you. Either way, Cerberus aren't all powerful when it comes to gathering information, it seems".

Wrong. That's just your perception.
And no, I won't, because there is no way to do so in the span of one game.

You are the one that's eager to write off simple logic. If more eixsted, there would have been more advancment by ME2 then a single gun and a single A.I. Also, Again, I urge you to re-watch the massive explosion that completely tore Sovergein apart. Why don't you look at that and tell me just how much of the core components of Sovergein could have survived when the majority of it was slagged from the heat of it's own explosive death, and whatever was left was likely either destroyed when it colided with the Citadel, recycled by the keepers, or too melted and charred to be studied. You can tell this by both Anderson's staements, and just by looking at Sovergein's death.[/b]  And once again, I point you to the complete lack of development in the two years following ME1. All we have is one new gun, and one illegal A.I. That's all we got. If more had been intact, there would have been bigger results -- eqivilant exchange, pal. Little progress = little recovered tech.

Dude, Alchera was a planet with low gravity and little atmpsphere, meaning no re-entry heat to slag the remains and a slow decent. Not to mention the Normandy was already well within the world's gravity field, so it didn't have all that far to go. In layman's terms, unsusal/unique circumstances led to the Normandy surviving re-entry after being attacked by the Collectors. Not duribility of ships in general. In other words -- that example doesn't count at all here.

The SR2 was taken in for full re-fit by the Alliance after that. I'd hardly call that quick repairs. If you;re talking about the scene where the crew's fixing up the ship, I remind you that the amount of time it took to do that is unspecified. It could have taken weeks, or a return to a dry-dock like Omega or Illium to get it fully repaired. We aren't shown, so you can't assume fixing the ship was that easy.

Um.... did you actually take the time to look at that ship? It was a worn-out husk. Only three terminals and a beacon with a seperate power source were still intact. Also, Jacob's dad made a point of explaining how the supplies last longer when there's just one person using them -- that goes for replacement parts and repain materials too, you know. Most of which would be sub-standard when stranded.

"Now seriously," accept facts. Stop ignoring the truth and look at what the game's shown us -- The Reaper's aren't defeatible through conventional methods. The entire point of ME2 was to help Cerberus because nobody else had a plan. The possibilities being discussed and the rationale behind you have no bearing, because they ignore cold hard facts shown in the lore of ME1 & ME2. And again, no - as I said before, the lack of direction ME2 had gave no other possibilities for the series to take.

Again, wrong. Anderson told you that there wasn't any plan and ment it, because lying about that won't serve any purpose besides screwing you over. And again, the entire point of working for Cerberus was because we KNEW the Council wasn't doing anything.  That was proven time and again. Both Cerberus and Anderson corrilate this from their respective sides of the fence, and the lack of activity from the Council on the matter via the Shadow Broker network clinches it. They aren't doing anything.

Entire monolouge = Irrellivent. Like I said, equvilent exchange. Little tech = little advancement. There was little advancement in ME2, meaning little tech was recovered in working condition. I mean, you never, ever stopped to consider the fact that no new processing systems were created? That's because the important core pieces of Sovergein didn't survive. They were slagged, with the only surviving pieces being in EDI.
The Shadow Broker network not having any information about new tech or "Reaper counter-movements" only clinches the facts -- Cerberus and Anderson are being 100% straight with you -- The Council has no research,[b] no tech, and no plan.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 01 octobre 2013 - 03:32 .

[silverexile17s]

 

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

@ silverexile - I am The Illusive Woman. Think of what we could learn. Think of what we could achieve. The difference between the The Illusive Man and me is that The Illusive Man was a mere character in the story, not a writer.

And you won't end up any different then him. Your just making the same mistakes he did -- it's the same song to a different tune. Unless you rewrite ME2's plot to be more relivent, it's just going to all fall through -- one game isn't enough to compensate for the lack of foundation that ME2 left ME3.

Unless you plan to forget the "rewrite of the single game" and pull a "StarCraft" and split the game into "Chapter I & II," I don't see this ever working. You just can't build enough of a foundation for what you keep proposing with just one game.

You could say that we are pulling a StarCraft and doing a split into two parts. The overarching plot is simply too big for a single game. There was no foundation built anywhere really. We have to build that foundation, and even this isn't going to be a 20 hr campaign for the first part. It's big. 

Well, then, you've basically failed the base concept -- "seemless rewrite of ME3." That's not possible and in saying that you have to make ME3 more then one game, you've admitted it.

I'm not against the Idea itself. I just think I should point out that it will disregard the idea that a "seemless" re-write was ever possible.

Still, at least this would be possible then.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 01 octobre 2013 - 08:39 .

[aprilia1k]

I am ambivalent about chiming in here -- but it seems clear that this should be dropped. FTMP all have had their say, and while there is one voice calling for an ME2 rewrite - right? I know I heard it at least once. ;-) There seem to be a few voices that are mostly in agreement. Let it go, man. Just remain convinced that you'll be able to say "I told you so" if you must. Joking aside - I, for one, found alleyd's last post quite compelling - and it opened with something that seemed to slip right by:

"I never set the parameters. nor claimed it was a trilogy.".

Also - the repeated argument about needing to do this ME2 rewrite doesn't ring as true, to all ears, as it's proponent thinks it does. This is fiction. Science Fiction, yes - but fiction nonetheless. One could argue that many different technologies and "facts" regarding wormhole mechanics and dark energy physics are just minor (and generally accepted) variations on deus ex machina. We invent what we need to drive the story forward, and try to keep it within the subjective realm of "believable". Your claim about needing two games to "fix" things makes so many assumptions, all of which conveniently support the claim, that you have to approach from such a rigid position - wherefrom there's "no way X could have happened" (e.g. souv tech being unaccounted for - which alleyd very clearly showed, with verbatim quotes from ME2, was contrary to some of those assumptions). IT IS FICTION. These things aside - what is the exact "size" of one game anyway? Is it a certain number of characters or words, dialogs, scenes? This is a story. It begins where ME2 leaves off. Let's move on. Perhaps it is time to let go of the need to convince everyone that a singular ME3 rewrite is doomed. That's not only impossible to prove, it is pretty defeatist. With good planning, passionate writing and <u>an open mind</u> then of course it can be done. Hell -- what odds would you have given Shepard for most of his efforts in any of the games? Getting to Ilos and back? Returning from the core after jumping the Omega-4? There is NO WAY these things could have possibly happened? You might think that, yet there's a rather large group of passionate fans that more-or-less accepted the story. Note that I'm not arguing about the merits of ME2's story and whether it advanced plot. It's just moot now.

I would caution that care be taken, however, with the minimization of Shepard and his activities and role. I even find myself bristling a little bit when someone says he's just a "bit player". Let's not lose sight of the concept of the "singular protagonist" of the evolving story thus far. The player. It even ticked some people off that he was incarcerated while the Admiral and Liara went about discovering how to defeat Shepard's Nemesis. I think one or two writer's egos, and the need to create a comic-book hero (Liara) may have actually detracted from the main story. Just a thought. Not going to argue or elaborate further. It's one viewpoint.

Cheers.

[BiowareFan321]

(Excuse me if someone's already said this or something similar, I haven't read all the posts on this yet)


Why do the reapers have to arrive in ME3? Why not ME4, and the Mass Effect 3 rewrite is kind of building up to them coming. ME3 could have Shepard using the collector base (savored or destroyed) as evidence of the reapers existence.

[silverexile17s]

BiowareFan321 wrote...

(Excuse me if someone's already said this or something similar, I haven't read all the posts on this yet)


Why do the reapers have to arrive in ME3? Why not ME4, and the Mass Effect 3 rewrite is kind of building up to them coming. ME3 could have Shepard using the collector base (savored or destroyed) as evidence of the reapers existence.

How? If destroyed, then the majority of it is slagged beyond recognition. Anything would likely be akined to being Collector-made technology and not Reaper made. If saved, it will be under Cerberus care, and thus, the Council won't believe that the tech wasn't altered, corrupted, or even fabricated by Cerberus.