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Passionate Masseffect fans Are Needed For a Big Mass Effect Project.


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#151
silverexile17s

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Xplode441 wrote...

I'm not really understanding your arguments here silver.
You're said on the page back that there's no way it would work unless maybe it was split in two parts.
That's what's happening, now you backpedaled and are just saying it's not possible and are using, "Your going to have to rewrite ME2 for it to work!".
I don't think you realize how easy it is to get around stuff in a science fiction setting because there's always technology and plot devices that weren't introduced before that you can inject to get around roadblocks. Biggest examples would be thermal clips (everyone just acts like they've been around forever) and the crucible (hey, there's this prothean super weapon that was in the archives that we just never found until now).

If you'd want to be helpful, then point out the problems in ME2 that would create continuity issues. It would be good to have a list of any flaws in continuity so any writers could get to thinking of ways to fix them. As of now, it seems like your issue is a personal one in which you take issue with the way the writers' approached ME2. No one is stopping you from making your own ME2 storyline if that's what you want.

I did, until I took the time to realize that ME2 doesn't give enough of a remaining timeframe for that thanks to Arrival. What I said is true -- can't do it without more games. But it's already too late for that thanks to how Arrival played out -- the Reapers are already here. There's not enough time between the Suicide Mission and their attack on the galaxy, and I've seen no plausible way to extend that timeframe to give enough of a window to make the extra game needed. Like I've said before, ME2's narrative failure to be a bridge for a trilogy didn't lay enough of a foundation for ME3.
I don't think you realize that they spicifically said they weren't going to change ME2, yet thus far everything they suggested needs re-write of ME2 to make it work, as many of their ideas thus far invalidate some part of the established cannon from the past games in one way or another. Besides, neither of those are all that shocking compared to Vigil's Citadel off-switch, or the truth about the Collector's origins.

And FYI, I have. They keep getting brushed off by them. It's not any form of personal issue -- I'm just persnickty. An nit-picker - someone who peruses the Codex and in-game info daily, to be frank. Therefore, I tend to deconstruct things quickly. It's nothing personal -- I'm just OCD.
And I have no desire to do that. If I did, I would have already. I simply wanted these people to know just what "seemless rewrite" of ME3 would require -- namely, fixing or bypassing the faulty foundation ME2 gave it.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 02 octobre 2013 - 06:02 .


#152
silverexile17s

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alleyd wrote...

Silverexile, I've sent you an FR and I'd hope to continue our discussion off thread in PM. There's been some confusion and I'd like to clear it up.

Cheers


Trust me, there wasn't any confusion.

#153
silverexile17s

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sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

We could argue the different points until the cows come home, and considering I have no cows that would be forever. So I'll just claim artistic vision and artistic integrity and call it a day. Some things are going to have to be revised in order to avoid the train wreck at the end, and I have no problem with making revisions to make things work.

We're debating with a codex fundamentalist, whereas since we're doing a rewrite and the original game is the original canon, this is by definition an AU, which thus makes this a revisionist view of the story. Our intent is to make it a good one.

Image IPB

Now you sound like the BioWare devs about the original ending -- ignoring any form of coherency for their synthesis ending. Just ignoring past cannon like that is the same path they took.
-- "You've been spending too much time with the enemy. Their dragging you over to their side, their way of thinking."
"Listen to yourself -- you're Indoctrinated."

Problem is, the information you're trying to ignore comes from ME1 and ME2, which you said you planed to leave intact. Yet what your doing now does the complete opposite by ignoring established cannon from the past games. If you were just changing ME3 cannon, that would be fine, but so far, you aren't. You're altering/ignoring cannon from the last two games, even though you explisitly said that wasn't what you were going to do.

#154
silverexile17s

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erezike wrote...

Xplode441 wrote...

If you'd want to be helpful, then point out the problems in ME2 that would create continuity issues. It would be good to have a list of any flaws in continuity so any writers could get to thinking of ways to fix them. As of now, it seems like your issue is a personal one in which you take issue with the way the writers' approached ME2. No one is stopping you from making your own ME2 storyline if that's what you want.

thats a very good argument, xplode.  it would be very helpful in case we have missed anything important

Hasn't made a difference with you -- I've already stated several times what the problem with ME2 was, and you shot me down. I told you that the departure from fighting the Reapers, the lack of building up alliances with other races, the wasting of resources against a symptom instead of the cause, and the failure to introduce important plot-elements like the Crucible then and there rather then akwardly in the intro of the next game, are what ME2 did wrong. Yet you brushed them aside when I brought them up. And thank's to the timeframe left us, there's no longer enough time to make a second game between them before the Reapers arrived.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 02 octobre 2013 - 06:44 .


#155
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Would altering some of the canon of ME2 and one or two things in ME1 be so bad if it made for a far better third and fourth installment? Saying "seamless transition" was probably a poor choice of words. But in fairness, Bioware didn't exactly make a seamless transition between ME2 and ME3 either. Making an improved, different vision of the final segment might have been a better choice while making no promise not to touch the existing canon. We may have to alter or rather improve a few things to make a better story. Take your choice. Do you want a better story? Or do you want the same story told in a different form?

If you want the former, give us a chance, and you'll see. It will take time, but we'll get it done. If you want the latter or insist on putting the same original constraints on the story, there is no point in discussing the matter any further.

Writing a coherent ending with the original reapers given the power they have and not demystifying them or delaying things long enough to give the technology level of the galaxy a chance to rise enough to counter it without using a deus ex machina is simply not possible. It is why Mac Walters did a trash and burn on the MEU with the Original Ending. Even our folk hero DK was going to end the MEU with his DE ending using a deus ex machina: you got swept up to talk to God who explains the DE theory to you and why the cycle exists, and why humans are so important. This to me works fine in a Fantasy setting but all this pseudo-mysticism doesn't work well in a science fiction setting.

#156
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silverexile17s wrote...

alleyd wrote...

Silverexile, I've sent you an FR and I'd hope to continue our discussion off thread in PM. There's been some confusion and I'd like to clear it up.

Cheers


Trust me, there wasn't any confusion.


Trust me, there was, you keep on quoting Erezike's criteria in you replies and I told you I did not set those criteria and that I am not affiliated with Erezike's rewrite group. 

#157
silverexile17s

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alleyd wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

alleyd wrote...

Silverexile, I've sent you an FR and I'd hope to continue our discussion off thread in PM. There's been some confusion and I'd like to clear it up.

Cheers


Trust me, there wasn't any confusion.


Trust me, there was, you keep on quoting Erezike's criteria in you replies and I told you I did not set those criteria and that I am not affiliated with Erezike's rewrite group. 

Trust me, there wasn't. I know what you ment, and responded accordingly. The same problems that affect @erezkie's posts affect yours -- the past lore and the lack of development in ME2.

#158
silverexile17s

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sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Would altering some of the canon of ME2 and one or two things in ME1 be so bad if it made for a far better third and fourth installment? Saying "seamless transition" was probably a poor choice of words. But in fairness, Bioware didn't exactly make a seamless transition between ME2 and ME3 either. Making an improved, different vision of the final segment might have been a better choice while making no promise not to touch the existing canon. We may have to alter or rather improve a few things to make a better story. Take your choice. Do you want a better story? Or do you want the same story told in a different form?

If you want the former, give us a chance, and you'll see. It will take time, but we'll get it done. If you want the latter or insist on putting the same original constraints on the story, there is no point in discussing the matter any further.

Writing a coherent ending with the original reapers given the power they have and not demystifying them or delaying things long enough to give the technology level of the galaxy a chance to rise enough to counter it without using a deus ex machina is simply not possible. It is why Mac Walters did a trash and burn on the MEU with the Original Ending. Even our folk hero DK was going to end the MEU with his DE ending using a deus ex machina: you got swept up to talk to God who explains the DE theory to you and why the cycle exists, and why humans are so important. This to me works fine in a Fantasy setting but all this pseudo-mysticism doesn't work well in a science fiction setting.

But you yourself said that wasn't what you were going to do. And the prospect of the Reapers being Cthulhu monsters was the backdrop for their entire exitance. The entire reason they were a threat to existance, and not just some generic synthetic bad guys like the geth. And there no longer is a timeframe for a saga that big. Not with how close the Reapers already are. And to be frank, the same can be said about the transition between ME1 and ME2 with the forced death of Shepard. And now at last, you admit that flaws in the past games caused alot of what went wrong in ME3. Problem is, the level of tech the Reapers display has already cemented them as Cthulhu monsters. You can't change that without altering the entire baseline formula of the MEU. Point in fact, I really don't think there can be a better story without the rewrite extending to ME2 as well -- introduce the Crucible sooner (because, again, the Reapers have already proven that conventional warfare will never succeed against them), do more to actually motivate the respective factions, get some pull going, ect.

No, it really won't. Just from looking at the foundation alone, I believe the building is on shaky ground. I'm not waiting for it to implode on itself. No matter how much time you have, you can't do this without completely rewriting half the established cannon of the series by changing ME2. Even then, you aren't planning to stay faithful to the lore of ME1 regarding the Reapers. There is point to discussing it because I don't want people to work their asses off for something that's not likely going to get off the ground.

It will never BE possible to change that aspect of the Reapers. It's part of their core in the series. Take that away, and you've just got another enemy like the geth -- synthetic missiles that fly at you for the purpose of being killed. There's no tension or suspense or even urgency in such an enemy. The power they have can't change or be lessened, because thay both destroyes the threat they represent and the maginitude of what they're supposed to be: ancient bio-synthetic ships that harvest all life in the galaxy and built the core of modern tech. Nothing except the classification of " Cthulhu monsters" does them any justice. Anything else would be a gross misrepresentation of the power an ancient race like that would have. And AGAIN, it's why everyone at BioWare did that -- you can't just blame Mac Walters for a mess Drew Karpyshyn created, and that everyone else that worked with him didn't bother to fix. Besides, with things like biotics and mind-melding beacons and sentiant psychic plants, ME was already a fantasy story blended with Sci-Fi. In fact, Mass Effect's offcial classification falls under "Sci-fi - fantasy." Half the game is fantastical, with space demons coming to harvest us, biotic powers that work like the force, psychic plant-beings that can grow clones, telepathic insects and so-forth. Why be surprised now?

#159
sH0tgUn jUliA

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I'm not blaming Mac Walters. I'm blaming Drew. It never got fixed. I'm sorry you feel the way you do. I'm am through debating this subject.

#160
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silverexile17s wrote...

alleyd wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

alleyd wrote...

Silverexile, I've sent you an FR and I'd hope to continue our discussion off thread in PM. There's been some confusion and I'd like to clear it up.

Cheers


Trust me, there wasn't any confusion.


Trust me, there was, you keep on quoting Erezike's criteria in you replies and I told you I did not set those criteria and that I am not affiliated with Erezike's rewrite group. 

Trust me, there wasn't. I know what you ment, and responded accordingly. The same problems that affect @erezkie's posts affect yours -- the past lore and the lack of development in ME2.


When you repeatedly named Erezike in reply to my posts, it threw me a bit. Didn't know who you were referring to actually. Our visions of how to tackle ME are quite different. yes

I agree you have to do a lot of work around the whole franchise and take a totally different perspective  I'm personally writing for no other reason than for fun.

#161
silverexile17s

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alleyd wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

alleyd wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

alleyd wrote...

Silverexile, I've sent you an FR and I'd hope to continue our discussion off thread in PM. There's been some confusion and I'd like to clear it up.

Cheers


Trust me, there wasn't any confusion.


Trust me, there was, you keep on quoting Erezike's criteria in you replies and I told you I did not set those criteria and that I am not affiliated with Erezike's rewrite group. 

Trust me, there wasn't. I know what you ment, and responded accordingly. The same problems that affect @erezkie's posts affect yours -- the past lore and the lack of development in ME2.


When you repeatedly named Erezike in reply to my posts, it threw me a bit. Didn't know who you were referring to actually. Our visions of how to tackle ME are quite different. yes

I agree you have to do a lot of work around the whole franchise and take a totally different perspective  I'm personally writing for no other reason than for fun.



I repeatedly named him in my posts to you because both your reasonings have the same faults. They have the same baseline faults in how they contridict what we already established as cannon from the past two games. Doesn't matter that the end-results were different. I said nothing I didn't intend.

And again, with what's already been established in the past of the series, there isn't really much of a direction it can go now without rewriting all of that. You may not care abiut re-writing ME2, but @erezike doesn't believe in it.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 02 octobre 2013 - 09:28 .


#162
silverexile17s

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sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I'm not blaming Mac Walters. I'm blaming Drew. It never got fixed. I'm sorry you feel the way you do. I'm am through debating this subject.


Then it's never going to be fixed. Simple as that. You'll just go down the same path he did -- as BioWare did. Disregarding the established core lore of the Reapers won't end out well -- it won't be anything close to a real AU for ME -- you couldn't accept that conventional victory was impossible, so you change the rules and the entire core of the story because you can't deal with it?
That's not how to solve the problem. Find a different way. Look things over -- if you're serious about this, find something that was missed. Find something that could level the playing field -- conventional victory isn't possible. You need to find alternitives. Look for them. That was the reason for things like the Levathans and the Crucible -- because the standard methods just don't cut it against something like this. You told me I'd limited my view, but it's you that's limiting your view to conventional fighting or nothing.
Find something that changes the scope. It's never going to work in the timeframe we have left unless you do.

#163
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@Silverexile I understand better, it was me that was confused :-). I still don't understand why you are so opposed to people writing fan fiction that is based on their own interpretation of the text or their own imagination.

#164
silverexile17s

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alleyd wrote...

@Silverexile I understand better, it was me that was confused :-). I still don't understand why you are so opposed to people writing fan fiction that is based on their own interpretation of the text or their own imagination.

I'm not. I'm only opposed to it disrearding the cannon they said they'd stay loyal to. He said "no rewrite of ME2," yet so far, all his ideals require rewrite of some aspect of ME2 or another.

My current efforts of brainstorming an alternitive to that while staying true to ME1 & ME2 have failed. And I've seen nothing put out here that does any better, especally when put under a microscope.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 02 octobre 2013 - 11:53 .


#165
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silverexile17s wrote...

alleyd wrote...

@Silverexile I understand better, it was me that was confused :-). I still don't understand why you are so opposed to people writing fan fiction that is based on their own interpretation of the text or their own imagination.

I'm not. I'm only opposed to it disrearding the cannon they said they'd stay loyal to. He said "no rewrite of ME2," yet so far, all his ideals require rewrite of some aspect of ME2 or another.

My current efforts of brainstorming an alternitive to that while staying true to ME1 & ME2 have failed. And I've seen nothing put out here that does any better, especally when put under a microscope.


I know the feeling myself and I do not expect mine will be any better either. :crying:

The MEU is hard to reconcile unless you are really prepeared to stretch things and take risks. It helps that it is a space fanatsy and has so few rules of logic. I'll never convince you to accept my interpretation, as I failed to convince others and that is as it should be, my perspective will be unique and I will make compromises that another fan will object to. All I know is that it would be impossible for anyone to explain a complex attempt at resolving ME in a couple of forum posts.

#166
silverexile17s

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alleyd wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

alleyd wrote...

@Silverexile I understand better, it was me that was confused :-). I still don't understand why you are so opposed to people writing fan fiction that is based on their own interpretation of the text or their own imagination.

I'm not. I'm only opposed to it disrearding the cannon they said they'd stay loyal to. He said "no rewrite of ME2," yet so far, all his ideals require rewrite of some aspect of ME2 or another.

My current efforts of brainstorming an alternitive to that while staying true to ME1 & ME2 have failed. And I've seen nothing put out here that does any better, especally when put under a microscope.


I know the feeling myself and I do not expect mine will be any better either. :crying:

The MEU is hard to reconcile unless you are really prepeared to stretch things and take risks. It helps that it is a space fanatsy and has so few rules of logic. I'll never convince you to accept my interpretation, as I failed to convince others and that is as it should be, my perspective will be unique and I will make compromises that another fan will object to. All I know is that it would be impossible for anyone to explain a complex attempt at resolving ME in a couple of forum posts.



From what @Julia and @erezkie said, they wanted the Reapers to be conventional enemies. But with the current level of tech we have and the short timeframe that's left, I just don't see how thats.......

.... OMG.

I've got it..... I've GOT IT!!!!

I'll be right back.

#167
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Double post 

Modifié par alleyd, 03 octobre 2013 - 03:45 .


#168
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This was what I wanted to do to the Reapers

Alternate Timeline of the Mass Effect Universe  

All dates are in BCE (Before Common Era) and CE (Common Era).

 Prehistoric Times (Unknown BCE - 1,000,000,000 BCE)

 The Time of the Keepers

The Keepers were the original architects of the Citadel and the Relays, the masters of the Mass Effect and the most technologically advanced civilisation ever to exist in the galaxy. The Keepers were an augmented organic race with hybrid hive mind intelligence, able to communicate complex ideas in an instant over vast distances through the relay network. The centre of the Keeper civilization was the Citadel; here the Keeper Queen was
interfaced with the main hub of the relay network itself. Each Keeper was hard wired into the system. This was their greatest asset in their exploration of the galaxy, but also their greatest weakness.

 The Keepers were curious beings, drawn to researching the mysteries of the Galaxy in the search for understanding. A group of Keepers were assigned to observe the environmental collapse of some long forgotten
water world. They arrived to undertake a study of the dying world’s environment’s death throws, little did they know that their doom lay lurking in the hidden depths of the planet.

 
The Origins of the Reapers

The Reapers ancestors were originally a race of aquatic apex predators on this unknown, Eezo Rich water world.  Evolution had gifted them with extended life span, a cunning intelligence and a deadly effective form of biotics, a form that doesn’t only manipulate the physical, but the mental chemistry of its prey. The Reapers were patient ambush predators. They set traps for the unwary, subtly overtaking the minds of their prey and then striking in a powerful mind attack aimed at provoking terror and panic or paralysis. These predators had a taste for fear,
the chemical reactions racing through were their “Ambrosia” and their hunger was insatiable. It was a key function of Reaper society; an individual Reaper’s power is measured in its reserves of “Ambrosia” The more Ambrosia, the more trrifying and powerful an individual Reaper is

The Long Hunger

The Reapers ancestors were limited by their inability to use tools and were tied to their home planet. The planet was facing environmental collapse, prey species were disappearing rapidly and they were facing extinction. This was the period the Reapers still call The Long Hunger, the time when the Reaper’s learned fear for the first time.

They needed to escape their doomed planet and salvation lay in the hands of the Keepers. They patiently enthralled the minds of the Keepers studying them, turning scientific curiosity into an overwhelming religious
belief. This belief spread through into the hive mind of the Keepers rapidly until virtually the entire civilization was converted.

The Reapers encouraged the enthralled Keepers into augmenting their bodies with synthetic tech and Mass Effect Drives to enable them to escape the planet. They burst out of their home world into a galaxy full of
defenceless Keepers. The Reapers are not a co-operative species by nature, their native environment encouraged competition and this had been honed during the Long hunger. Each Reaper raced through the galaxy eager to harvest as much “Ambrosia” as possible to ascend their status. The Reaper’s predatory instincts and greed took over and they entered into a cataclysmic feeding frenzy on the enthralled Keepers.

Harbinger

The most cunning individual Reaper, Harbinger, adopted a different strategy than his brothers. He was weaker physically than other Reapers and did not join the frenzy on the Keeper’s colony worlds. He attacked the Keeper Queen and took over her control of the Keeper augmented communication hub. Here he used his thralls to link his body into the centralised hive mind of the Keeper Queen directly, fortified his defence and he waited his opportunity. When the Frenzy was over, he struck and overwhelmed the fragile bond between each Reaper’s organic mind and its synthetic body and in the process he shackled their instincts to his will.

The Silent Cycle (1,000,000,000 BCE - 68,000 BCE)

The Reapers are extremely long-lived Cybernetic intelligences, virtually immortal but still subject to the Laws of Entropy. Their organic element and Element Zero reserves decay over vast periods of time. The Frenzy had taken out virtually the entire Keeper Civilization, of the trillions of beings spread across the galaxy; only the relatively tiny population within theCitadel remained. Harbinger had control of the only remaining Keeper Queen but the species would never be able to reproduce enough genetic material to sustain or satiate the rest of the Reapers hunger. Another solution was needed

 Harbinger knew the limits of his control, if his brothers became hungry for “Ambrosia”, they would Frenzy and be out with his control, their hunger would drive them to eradicate Organic life totally or they and would turn against him. To protect himself, he constructed a Relay link to the void of Dark Space and built a giant station in Dark Space. He convinced his brothers that entering Dark Space would allow them to enter into prolonged stasis and conserve their resources over the vast period of time that would be required to replenish Organic  reserves to a level capable of sustaining the Reaper population. His brothers saw the benefits, but were unaware of  Harbingers other intention, when they retreated through the Dark Space relay and linked into the giant home base, he struck and overwhelmed them, now the Reapers themselves were enthralled slaves.

Harbinger knew the risks of waiting on evolution offering no guarantees of another race ascending to a level required to feed the Reapers. He bypassed the process by uplifting species that were suitable to Reaper
needs, engineering them a their development along specific paths. To perpetuate their cycle required the thralls to have access to certain technological advances.

 Space flight: The reapers need a vast amount of organic material, more than a single world could provide.

Ability to manipulate Element Zero: The thralls need to have knowledge of how to manipulate stable Eezo, either by evolution (Biotics) or through technology

Creation of synthetic augmentation technology: The thralls need to understand, and construct/ repair advanced synthetic intelligence networks

Uplift Technology: Each cycle must be able to uplift the next.

Ability to construct Dark Energy Devices: Each cycle needs to be able to construct DED’s to enable the Reapers to control the next cycle, construct a Reaper to replenish losses and to extend the web of influence of the Cycle
(Relays and Terminus devices)

This was the perfect system for Harbinger with it he was able to balance the insatiable hunger of his brothers with his own needs for keeping control. He had imposed an order on the chaos of the Frenzy and enabled his race to achieve a form of immortality 

 1,000,000,000 BCE

The Leviathan of Dis, a Reaper casualty of the Frenzy. Its corpse comes to rest on the planet Jartar and remains undisturbed for nearly one billion years until being discovered by Batarian scientists

 37,000,000 BCE

An unknown space faring race fires a mass accelerator round at a Reaper near the planet Mnemosyne. The round penetrates the Reaper, disabling it, and continues moving through space, eventually striking the planet Klendagon and creating the geological feature there known as the Great Rift Valley. Cerberus traced the origins of the weapon and begin to reverse engineer the technology

298,000 BCE

The ancient Arthenn race flourish in the Zelene system, living on the planet Helyme until being destroyed in an unknown event that wiped out all complex life on the planet. They also maintained a presence on other planets in the system including Epho, which bears the scars of an ancient orbital bombardment, and Gaelon, which may have been mined for helium-3.

 125,000 BCE

Ancient spacefaring races called the Thoi'han and Inusannon fight over the planet Eingana, littering the planet with the debris of hundreds of starships. Refined element zero scattered by broken drive cores contaminates
the environment, causing many native species to go extinct and those that survive to show a tendency to develop biotic powers.

 Protheans (68,000 BCE – 48,000 BCE)

68,000 BCE

The Reapers cycle worked perfectly for aeons, most cycles were pacified and offered little resistance to the harvest. That was until the arrival of the Protheans. The Protheans were the penultimate Cycle race, uplifted by the Inusannon at the behest of Harbinger prior to their Harvest. They achieved  space flight and discover mass effect technology from the ruins of the extinct Inusannon and go on to establish a galaxy-wide civilization linked by the mass relay network with the Citadel as their capital, unaware that they were enthralled by the Reapers

50,000 BCE –48’000 BCE The Cycle is discovered

The Protheans encounter a hostile race of machine intelligences that endanger their existence in a conflict known as the "Metacon War". To combat this threat the Protheans uplifted several races, including an insectoid race, the Rachni

 The Rachni were intelligent insectoids with a hive mind intelligence. Cunning and aggressive, the Protheans uplifted them and with their help turned the tide of the Metacon war, though the conflict was long and bloody.
Evolution had bestowed other gifts on the Rachni, they had an ability to sense the subtle control signal of the Citadel. When they deciphered the meaning and origin of the signal, they rebelled but were eventually defeated by the Protheans, but not before news of the Reaper signal was passed on. 

A team of Prothean Scientists read the genetically encoded knowledge of a Rachni Queen using their unique sensory ability. They were able to decipher more of the signal and tried to warn their leaders of the Reapers, but to no avail. The Citadel’s influence was too strong and their leaders would not leave the Citadel.

48,000BCE The Harvest of The Protheans

When the Reapers invaded, the Prothean Empire was in chaos as a result of the rebellion. The Reapers quickly assumed command of the Prothean leaders but still they had a long and bitter war to defeat the Prothean rebels. This was the first time in history that the Reapers had encountered any real resistance and they were unable to harvest the Protheans with impunity. They had to stall harvesting for their own needs and produce augmented Protheans to supplement their force. Over time this strategy turned the tide of the conflict, each Prothean world the Reapers captured was a factory for enthralled and augmented soldiers.

 It still took the combined fleets of the Enthralled Protheans and the Reapers several hundred years to finally defeat the Prothean rebels, who fought a war of attrition and sacrifice. They destroyed worlds rather than let them be captured or harvested but it wasn’t enough to halt the Reapers, though it did impact heavily on them, who were unable to process the vast amounts of organic material they required. The cycle had been broken. Harbinger recalled the Reapers earlier then previous cycles when the last enclaves of Protheans were destroyed and they tasked their Indoctrinated forces with the task of clearing the galaxy of the last of the rebels and all Reaper or Prothean technology.

The Rebels had one last card to play, cadres of specialists hidden in long-term stasis in remote worlds. These were built to house the best minds of the Protheans. Some were discovered and destroyed, but a precious few
survived into this cycle and were able to sabotage the Reaper system. They closed off the Citadel portal to dark space and sabotaged its mind control signal. Then they wiped out virtually all the Enthralled slaves, who without the Reapers were a vastly reduced force.

Their last acts were to sabotage the Cycle any way they could. They completed their genetic reverse engineering of the uplifted races, built warning beacons and technology archives on or near the home worlds of an uplifted race and closed off many Mass Relays, before vanishing from history.
[/quote]

Modifié par alleyd, 03 octobre 2013 - 03:46 .


#169
silverexile17s

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alleyd wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

alleyd wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

alleyd wrote...

@Silverexile I understand better, it was me that was confused :-). I still don't understand why you are so opposed to people writing fan fiction that is based on their own interpretation of the text or their own imagination.

I'm not. I'm only opposed to it disrearding the cannon they said they'd stay loyal to. He said "no rewrite of ME2," yet so far, all his ideals require rewrite of some aspect of ME2 or another.

My current efforts of brainstorming an alternitive to that while staying true to ME1 & ME2 have failed. And I've seen nothing put out here that does any better, especally when put under a microscope.


I know the feeling myself and I do not expect mine will be any better either. :crying:

The MEU is hard to reconcile unless you are really prepeared to stretch things and take risks. It helps that it is a space fanatsy and has so few rules of logic. I'll never convince you to accept my interpretation, as I failed to convince others and that is as it should be, my perspective will be unique and I will make compromises that another fan will object to. All I know is that it would be impossible for anyone to explain a complex attempt at resolving ME in a couple of forum posts.



From what @Julia and @erezkie said, they wanted the Reapers to be conventional enemies. But with the current level of tech we have and the short timeframe that's left, I just don't see how thats.......

.... OMG.

I've got it..... I've GOT IT!!!!

I'll be right back.


This was what I wanted to do to the Reapers

Alternate Timeline of the Mass Effect Universe

 

All dates are in BCE (Before Common Era) and CE (Common
Era).

 

Prehistoric Times (Unknown BCE - 1,000,000,000 BCE)

 

The Time of the Keepers

The Keepers were the original architects of the Citadel and
the Relays, the masters of the Mass Effect and the most technologically
advanced civilisation ever to exist in the galaxy. The Keepers were an
augmented organic race with hybrid hive mind intelligence, able to communicate
complex ideas in an instant over vast distances through the relay network. The
centre of the Keeper civilization was the Citadel; here the Keeper Queen was
interfaced with the main hub of the relay network itself. Each Keeper was hard
wired into the system. This was their greatest asset in their exploration of
the galaxy, but also their greatest weakness.

 

The Keepers were curious beings, drawn to researching the
mysteries of the Galaxy in the search for understanding. A group of Keepers
were assigned to observe the environmental collapse of some long forgotten
water world. They arrived to undertake a study of the dying world’s
environment’s death throws, little did they know that their doom lay lurking in
the hidden depths of the planet.

 

The Origins of the Reapers

The Reapers ancestors were originally a race of aquatic apex
predators on this unknown, Eezo Rich water world.  Evolution had gifted them with extended life span, a cunning
intelligence and a deadly effective form of biotics, a form that doesn’t only
manipulate the physical, but the mental chemistry of its prey. The Reapers were
patient ambush predators. They set traps for the unwary, subtly overtaking the
minds of their prey and then striking in a powerful mind attack aimed at
provoking terror and panic or paralysis. These predators had a taste for fear,
the chemical reactions racing through were their “Ambrosia” and their hunger
was insatiable. It was a key function of Reaper society; an individual Reaper’s
power is measured in its reserves of “Ambrosia”

 

The Long Hunger

The Reapers ancestors were limited by their inability to use
tools and were tied to their home planet. The planet was facing environmental
collapse, prey species were disappearing rapidly and they were facing
extinction. This was the period the Reapers still call The Long Hunger, the
time when the Reaper’s learned fear for the first time.

 

They needed to escape their doomed planet and salvation lay
in the hands of the Keepers. They patiently enthralled the minds of the Keepers
studying them, turning scientific curiosity into an overwhelming religious
belief. This belief spread through into the hive mind of the Keepers rapidly
until virtually the entire civilization was converted. The Reapers encouraged
the enthralled Keepers into augmenting their bodies with synthetic tech and
Mass Effect Drives to enable them to escape the planet.

They burst out of their home world into a galaxy full of
defenceless Keepers. The Reapers are not a co-operative species by nature,
their native environment encouraged competition and this had been honed during
the Long hunger. Each Reaper raced through the galaxy eager to harvest as much
“Ambrosia” as possible to ascend their status. The Reaper’s predatory instincts
and greed took over and they entered into a cataclysmic feeding frenzy on the enthralled
Keepers.

Harbinger

The most cunning individual Reaper, Harbinger, adopted a
different strategy than his brothers. He was weaker physically than other
Reapers and did not join the frenzy on the Keeper’s colony worlds. He attacked
the Keeper Queen and took over her control of the Keeper augmented
communication hub. Here he used his thralls to link his body into the
centralised hive mind of the Keeper Queen directly, fortified his defence and
he waited his opportunity. When the Frenzy was over, he struck and overwhelmed
the fragile bond between each Reaper’s organic mind and its synthetic body and
in the process he shackled their instincts to his will.

 

The Silent Cycle (1,000,000,000 BCE - 68,000 BCE)

The Reapers are extremely long-lived Cybernetic intelligences,
virtually immortal but still subject to the Laws of Entropy. Their organic
element and Element Zero reserves decay over vast periods of time. The Frenzy
had taken out virtually the entire Keeper Civilization, of the trillions of
beings spread across the galaxy; only the relatively tiny population within the
Citadel remained. Harbinger had control of the only remaining Keeper Queen but
the species would never be able to reproduce enough genetic material to sustain
or satiate the rest of the Reapers hunger. Another solution was needed

 

Harbinger knew the limits of his control, if his brothers
became hungry for “Ambrosia”, they would Frenzy and be out with his control,
their hunger would drive them to eradicate Organic life totally or they and
would turn against him. To protect himself, he constructed a Relay link to the
void of Dark Space and built a giant station in Dark Space. He convinced his
brothers that entering Dark Space would allow them to enter into prolonged
stasis and conserve their resources over the vast period of time that would be
required to replenish Organic food reserves to a level capable of sustaining
the Reaper population. His brothers saw the benefits, but were unaware of
Harbingers other intention, when they retreated through the Dark Space relay
and linked into the giant home base, he struck and overwhelmed them, now the
Reapers themselves were enthralled slaves.

 

Harbinger knew the risks of waiting on evolution offering no
guarantees of another race ascending to a level required to feed the Reapers.
He bypassed the process by uplifting species that were suitable to Reaper
needs, engineering them a their development along specific paths. To perpetuate
their cycle required the thralls to have access to certain technological advances.

 


Space
flight: The reapers need a vast amount of organic material, more than a
single world could provide.
Ability
to manipulate Element Zero: The thralls need to have knowledge of how to
manipulate Eezo, either by evolution (Biotics) or through technology
Creation
of synthetic augmentation technology: The thralls need to understand, and
construct/ repair advanced synthetic intelligence networks
Uplift
Technology: Each cycle must be able to uplift the next.
Ability
to construct Dark Energy Devices: Each cycle needs to be able to construct
DED’s to enable the Reapers to control the next cycle, construct a Reaper
to replenish losses and to extend the web of influence of the Cycle
(Relays and Terminus devices)
[/list]
 

This was the perfect system for Harbinger with it he was
able to balance the insatiable hunger of his brothers with his own needs for
keeping control. He had imposed an order on the chaos of the Frenzy and enabled
his race to achieve a form of immortality

 

1,000,000,000 BCE

The Leviathan of Dis, a Reaper casualty of the Frenzy. Its
corpse comes to rest on the planet Jartar and remains undisturbed for nearly
one billion years until being discovered by Batarian scientists

 

37,000,000 BCE

An unknown space faring race fires a mass accelerator round
at a Reaper near the planet Mnemosyne. The round penetrates the Reaper,
disabling it, and continues moving through space, eventually striking the
planet Klendagon and creating the geological feature there known as the Great
Rift Valley. Cerberus traced the origins of the weapon and begin to reverse
engineer the technology

 

298,000 BCE

The ancient Arthenn race flourish in the Zelene system,
living on the planet Helyme until being destroyed in an unknown event that
wiped out all complex life on the planet. They also maintained a presence on
other planets in the system including Epho, which bears the scars of an ancient
orbital bombardment, and Gaelon, which may have been mined for helium-3.

 

125,000 BCE

Ancient spacefaring races called the Thoi'han and Inusannon
fight over the planet Eingana, littering the planet with the debris of hundreds
of starships. Refined element zero scattered by broken drive cores contaminates
the environment, causing many native species to go extinct and those that
survive to show a tendency to develop biotic powers.

 

 

Protheans (68,000 BCE – 48,000 BCE)

68,000 BCE

The Reapers cycle worked perfectly for aeons, most cycles
were pacified and offered little resistance to the harvest. That was until the
arrival of the Protheans. The Protheans were the penultimate Cycle race,
uplifted by the Inusannon at the behest of Harbinger prior to their Harvest.
They achieved  space flight and discover
mass effect technology from the ruins of the extinct Inusannon and go on to
establish a galaxy-wide civilization linked by the mass relay network with the
Citadel as their capital, unaware that they were enthralled by the Reapers

 

50,000 BCE –48’000 BCE The Cycle is discovered

The Protheans encounter a hostile race of machine
intelligences that endanger their existence in a conflict known as the
"Metacon War". To combat this threat the Protheans uplifted several
races, including an insectoid race, the Rachni

 

The Rachni were intelligent insectoids with a hive mind
intelligence. Cunning and aggressive, the Protheans uplifted them and with
their help turned the tide of the Metacon war, though the conflict was long and
bloody.

 

Evolution had bestowed other gifts on the Rachni, they had
an ability to sense the subtle control signal of the Citadel. When they deciphered
the meaning and origin of the signal, they rebelled but were eventually
defeated by the Protheans, but not before news of the Reaper signal was passed
on.

 

A team of Prothean Scientists read the genetically encoded
knowledge of a Rachni Queen using their unique sensory ability. They were able
to decipher more of the signal and tried to warn their leaders of the Reapers,
but to no avail. The Citadel’s influence was too strong and their leaders would
not leave the Citadel.

 

The Prothean Scientists rebelled and started to try and
sabotage the Reaper cycle in other ways. They sabotaged the cycle any way they
could. Destroying beacons, sabotaging relays and reverse-engineering the
genetic modifications of the uplifted species.

 

48,000BCE The Harvest of The Protheans

 

When the Reapers invaded, the Prothean Empire was in chaos
as a result of the rebellion. The Reapers quickly assumed command of the
Prothean leaders but still they had a long and bitter war to defeat the
Prothean rebels. This was the first time in history that the Reapers had
encountered any real resistance and they were unable to harvest the Protheans
with impunity. They had to stall harvesting for their own needs and produce
augmented Protheans to supplement their force. Over time this strategy turned
the tide of the conflict, each Prothean world the Reapers captured was a
factory for enthralled and augmented soldiers.

 

It still took the combined fleets of the Enthralled
Protheans and the Reapers several hundred years to finally defeat the Prothean
rebels, who fought a war of attrition and sacrifice. They destroyed worlds
rather than let them be captured or harvested but it wasn’t enough to halt the
Reapers, though it did impact heavily on the Reapers, who were unable to
process the vast amounts of organic material they required. The cycle had been
broken. Harbinger recalled the Reapers earlier then previous cycles when the
last enclaves of Protheans were destroyed and they tasked their Indoctrinated
forces with the task of clearing the galaxy of the last of the rebels and all
Reaper or Prothean technology.

 

The Rebels had one last card to play, cadres of specialists
hidden in long-term stasis in remote worlds. These were built to house the best
minds of the Protheans. Some were discovered and destroyed, but a precious few
survived into this cycle and were able to sabotage the Reaper system. They
closed off the Citadel portal to dark space and sabotaged its mind control
signal. Then they wiped out virtually all the Enthralled slaves, who without the
Reapers were a vastly reduced force.

Their last acts were to sabotage the Cycle any way they
could. They completed their genetic reverse engineering of the uplifted races,
built warning beacons and technology archives on or near the home worlds of an
uplifted race and closed off many Mass Relays, before vanishing from history.

Yeah, um..... I don't know about all that. That re-writes the entire past of the Reapers and lesses what they are. That would invalidate ME1. If we're going to try and find a way to beat them, it shoud be us getting better alternitives, and not weakening the Reapers and all that they are for the sake of plot convinece. That's the easy way out.
Not to mention that I personally didn't find all that much wrong with Levaithan's explination of the Reaper's origins and the sick, twisted irony that the Reaper's harvests were the result of a math equasion regarding conflicts. To me it was fine.... with the excpetion of the Leviathans actually still existing in modern times --  an archive or just their artifacts, or perhaps a caretaker system similar to Vigil, I could believe. The race itself still being around irked me a bit.
However, I did figure out a possible way to get the extra time @Julia wanted to try and develop new ways to combat them. I'll PM it to you.

#170
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Yeah I thought some of the problems were so serious you actually needed to reach out there. I may have over reached and the idea got out of hand. :-)

Look forward to the PM. Thanks

#171
Erez Kristal

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silverexile17s wrote...

departure from fighting the Reapers, the lack of building up alliances with other races, the wasting of resources against a symptom instead of the cause, and the failure to introduce important plot-elements like the Crucible then and there rather then akwardly in the intro of the next game, are what ME2 did wrong.


Actions in our plot regards to the reaper war and me2

Departure from fighting the reapers- there was never a departure from fighting the reapers. the collectors were controlled by the reapers and you fought them. its just like iran claming not be attacking anyone when they are in fact controlling hamas and hezbollah. you know, the two worldwide proclaimed terror organizations.
Lack of buld up - Being dealt with in our story,

Wasting resources? - everyone were gearing up for war in m2, project overlord, building dreadnoughts, upgrading technology. you were already in war with the collectors, you took them out and may even have gotten stronger by keeping their base and technology. these efforts seem meaningless to you because you are focusing on the events of the original mass effect 3. instead of what could have been done. you are limtiing your prespective. mass effect 3 could have been a lot better if it didnt go the same line it did.

It wasnt a faliure - the crucible was bad plot device.

as for super weapons -  cerberus had giant canon Kledagon. the one which killed a reaper.

Dlc Arrival - Dealt with and actually gives a lot of good story telling material once you look at it from the right prespectve.


All of the above have been dealt with without retconns or rewrites no one has gone derp, on the contray factions and characters are smarter than before. these issues has been dealt with by offering a new prespective and by creating an interesting and logical story.

Modifié par erezike, 03 octobre 2013 - 06:43 .


#172
Armass81

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When reading about the reaper origin i couldnt help to think about this:

Alleyd, whether intentional or unintentional, that reaper origins is rather similar to a past event in another game, called MEs grandfather, Star Control 2. Echoes of the Sentient Milieu and their discovering of the dnyarri species, which also used mindcontrol to enslave the galaxy. You might wanna change it around a bit to make it more original.

Just saying...

Then again mind controlling overlord species aint nothing new in scifi, Known Space had the thrintun, which ruled the galaxy millions of years ago.

(I think Futurama might have copied Hypnotoad from the dnyarri, the resemblance is just too similar to be coincidence imo)

Modifié par Armass81, 03 octobre 2013 - 08:46 .


#173
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Armass81 wrote...

When reading about the reaper origin i couldnt help to think about this:

Alleyd, whether intentional or unintentional, that reaper origins is rather similar to a past event in another game, called MEs grandfather, Star Control 2. Echoes of the Sentient Milieu and their discovering of the dnyarri species, which also used mindcontrol to enslave the galaxy. You might wanna change it around a bit to make it more original.

Just saying...

Then again mind controlling overlord species aint nothing new in scifi, Known Space had the thrintun, which ruled the galaxy millions of years ago.

(I think Futurama might have copied Hypnotoad from the dnyarri, the resemblance is just too similar to be coincidence imo)


I'm aware of Star Control 2. Yeah, there's nothing original out there. We're kind of doing this for fun, but we're putting some different twists in it, and like I've said, I'm not seeking approval. We're seeking people who can and want to write. We're keeping the group small. 

#174
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Armass81 wrote...

When reading about the reaper origin i couldnt help to think about this:

Alleyd, whether intentional or unintentional, that reaper origins is rather similar to a past event in another game, called MEs grandfather, Star Control 2. Echoes of the Sentient Milieu and their discovering of the dnyarri species, which also used mindcontrol to enslave the galaxy. You might wanna change it around a bit to make it more original.

Just saying...

Then again mind controlling overlord species aint nothing new in scifi, Known Space had the thrintun, which ruled the galaxy millions of years ago.

(I think Futurama might have copied Hypnotoad from the dnyarri, the resemblance is just too similar to be coincidence imo)


Thanks :-) I've honestly never seen any of the games etc you mention,. I was using ME themes, Leviathan for the giant aquatic predator,  the dangers of uplifting the wrong species. The mind control part was the defining aspect of Reapers to me so I had no choice there.

My perspective is the Reapers could not have built the Citadel or the Relays, they do not fit into the structures and are not a tool using physical shape to my eyes. they didn't invent technology but stole a ride on the back of a race tht does byt using Indoctrination and coerced uplifting

#175
silverexile17s

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erezike wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

departure from fighting the Reapers, the lack of building up alliances with other races, the wasting of resources against a symptom instead of the cause, and the failure to introduce important plot-elements like the Crucible then and there rather then akwardly in the intro of the next game, are what ME2 did wrong.


Actions in our plot regards to the reaper war and me2

Departure from fighting the reapers- there was never a departure from fighting the reapers. the collectors were controlled by the reapers and you fought them. its just like iran claming not be attacking anyone when they are in fact controlling hamas and hezbollah. you know, the two worldwide proclaimed terror organizations.
Lack of buld up - Being dealt with in our story,

Wasting resources? - everyone were gearing up for war in m2, project overlord, building dreadnoughts, upgrading technology. you were already in war with the collectors, you took them out and may even have gotten stronger by keeping their base and technology. these efforts seem meaningless to you because you are focusing on the events of the original mass effect 3. instead of what could have been done. you are limtiing your prespective. mass effect 3 could have been a lot better if it didnt go the same line it did.

It wasnt a faliure - the crucible was bad plot device.

as for super weapons -  cerberus had giant canon Kledagon. the one which killed a reaper.

Dlc Arrival - Dealt with and actually gives a lot of good story telling material once you look at it from the right prespectve.


All of the above have been dealt with without retconns or rewrites no one has gone derp, on the contray factions and characters are smarter than before. these issues has been dealt with by offering a new prespective and by creating an interesting and logical story.


Yes there was. Instead of fighting the threat directly like you did with Sovergein, you're running round fighting the pawns rather then trying to put the king in check, and they're moving freely. We waste time playing black ops with a terror network rather then spending time laying a foundation for the actual fight.

No they weren't. They were all focused on their own problems. The Alliance was rebuilding. The Council was trying to restore order to the Verge after the geth Heretics ripped it a new one. The Terminus was in chaos. The geth were still isolated. The quarians were still homeless and trying to figure out how to survive. The krogan were focused on ending their inner conflicts under either Wrex or Wreve. No one was doing a damn thing to prepare for the Reapers in ME2. That was the entire reason for singing on with Cerberus to begin with -- because there was no war prep. None of the technology you had was anything new. All of it came from advancement made in ME1, not ME2. You are the one limiting your perspective by not facing the facts -- ME2 didn't do anywhere near enough, and your claims run counter to everything explained in the game.

No, it wasn't -- as a dark energy weapon, it would have worked fine. Something that simply focuses and channeled dark energy into a focused blast. Like a gaint warp blast. The way it ended out was bad, but the device itself is conceptually sound -- taking giant dark energy engines like the Mass Relays and Citadel and using them as weapons. 

No they didn't. There's so much wrong with that sentance. Cerberus didn't build that weapon-- they found it by tracing the path of the shot back from Kendagon. The weapon itself was 37 million years old.
It's not on Klendagon - it's shot passed by the world. The shot grazed the world and caused a giant canyon, but it's not the world it was built on. And finally, they revealed the weapon was defunct. It's fossilized by now and completely worthelss. It could be studied, sure, but the thing itself is not in any finctioning condition and never will be again.

Somehow, I doubt what you did with Arrival will be any sort of logical plot.

None of the above have been delt with, as I just pointed out. If anything, you're on an even more illogical path then the ME devs were.