223 réponses à ce sujet

[silverexile17s]

alleyd wrote...

Armass81 wrote...

When reading about the reaper origin i couldnt help to think about this:

Alleyd, whether intentional or unintentional, that reaper origins is rather similar to a past event in another game, called MEs grandfather, Star Control 2. Echoes of the Sentient Milieu and their discovering of the dnyarri species, which also used mindcontrol to enslave the galaxy. You might wanna change it around a bit to make it more original.

Just saying...

Then again mind controlling overlord species aint nothing new in scifi, Known Space had the thrintun, which ruled the galaxy millions of years ago.

(I think Futurama might have copied Hypnotoad from the dnyarri, the resemblance is just too similar to be coincidence imo)

Thanks :-) I've honestly never seen any of the games etc you mention,. I was using ME themes, Leviathan for the giant aquatic predator,  the dangers of uplifting the wrong species. The mind control part was the defining aspect of Reapers to me so I had no choice there.

My perspective is the Reapers could not have built the Citadel or the Relays, they do not fit into the structures and are not a tool using physical shape to my eyes. they didn't invent technology but stole a ride on the back of a race tht does byt using Indoctrination and coerced uplifting

Actually, the Reapers explained that they intentionally designed the Citadel and the Relays to be convinent for organics, hence why it doesn't match their typical archetetcure. They're made to not look like Reaper tech, so that if anyone finds a stray piece of Reaper tech, they aren't going to make the connection between the two at first glance. The did invent the technology. That's a fact here.

[silverexile17s]

alleyd wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

alleyd wrote...

Armass81 wrote...

When reading about the reaper origin i couldnt help to think about this:

Alleyd, whether intentional or unintentional, that reaper origins is rather similar to a past event in another game, called MEs grandfather, Star Control 2. Echoes of the Sentient Milieu and their discovering of the dnyarri species, which also used mindcontrol to enslave the galaxy. You might wanna change it around a bit to make it more original.

Just saying...

Then again mind controlling overlord species aint nothing new in scifi, Known Space had the thrintun, which ruled the galaxy millions of years ago.

(I think Futurama might have copied Hypnotoad from the dnyarri, the resemblance is just too similar to be coincidence imo)

Thanks :-) I've honestly never seen any of the games etc you mention,. I was using ME themes, Leviathan for the giant aquatic predator,  the dangers of uplifting the wrong species. The mind control part was the defining aspect of Reapers to me so I had no choice there.

My perspective is the Reapers could not have built the Citadel or the Relays, they do not fit into the structures and are not a tool using physical shape to my eyes. they didn't invent technology but stole a ride on the back of a race tht does byt using Indoctrination and coerced uplifting

Actually, the Reapers explained that they intentionally designed the Citadel and the Relays to be convinent for organics, hence why it doesn't match their typical archetetcure. They're made to not look like Reaper tech, so that if anyone finds a stray piece of Reaper tech, they aren't going to make the connection between the two at first glance. The did invent the technology. That's a fact here.

I'm describing the perspective of that idea I posted which is a total alternate history of the Reapers. Not making a lore statement

....I stand corrected. Still, it changes a lot..... Oh, WAIT. You're saying the Reaper's learned the tech from their forefather race (Leviathans), and then used that to make the Relays. You're basically saying that while they built the relays and the Citadel, the original examples of the tech were invented by their creators.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

And another thing you have to remember about the reapers. By definition, they cannot be more intelligent than their creators.

[silverexile17s]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

And another thing you have to remember about the reapers. By definition, they cannot be more intelligent than their creators.

I don't know about that.  They probably weren't at first, but then they blended them up took the knowledge by force. I'd think they have all the knowledge.
Unelss you ment how they utilize it. If that's the case, I get that -- after all, the Reapers lack the spark of creativity that us organics do. We can do more with less more abstractly then the Reapers can.

In other words, they're just as intelligent. But they aren't as clever.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 04 octobre 2013 - 03:12 .

[Erez Kristal]

silverexile17s wrote...


Yes there was. Instead of fighting the threat directly like you did with Sovergein, you're running round fighting the pawns rather then trying to put the king in check, and they're moving freely. We waste time playing black ops with a terror network rather then spending time laying a foundation for the actual fight.

No they weren't. They were all focused on their own problems. The Alliance was rebuilding. The Council was trying to restore order to the Verge after the geth Heretics ripped it a new one. The Terminus was in chaos. The geth were still isolated. The quarians were still homeless and trying to figure out how to survive. The krogan were focused on ending their inner conflicts under either Wrex or Wreve. No one was doing a damn thing to prepare for the Reapers in ME2. That was the entire reason for singing on with Cerberus to begin with -- because there was no war prep. None of the technology you had was anything new. All of it came from advancement made in ME1, not ME2. You are the one limiting your perspective by not facing the facts -- ME2 didn't do anywhere near enough, and your claims run counter to everything explained in the game.

No, it wasn't -- as a dark energy weapon, it would have worked fine. Something that simply focuses and channeled dark energy into a focused blast. Like a gaint warp blast. The way it ended out was bad, but the device itself is conceptually sound -- taking giant dark energy engines like the Mass Relays and Citadel and using them as weapons. 

No they didn't. There's so much wrong with that sentance. Cerberus didn't build that weapon-- they found it by tracing the path of the shot back from Kendagon. The weapon itself was 37 million years old.
It's not on Klendagon - it's shot passed by the world. The shot grazed the world and caused a giant canyon, but it's not the world it was built on. And finally, they revealed the weapon was defunct. It's fossilized by now and completely worthelss. It could be studied, sure, but the thing itself is not in any finctioning condition and never will be again.

Somehow, I doubt what you did with Arrival will be any sort of logical plot.

None of the above have been delt with, as I just pointed out. If anything, you're on an even more illogical path then the ME devs were.

*How is fighting pawns, not fighting the reapers* most of the time you have to get through the pawns before you can take down the king
In mass effect 1 you were fighting pawns through the entire game, the fifth fleet fought the reaper directly.

* if you missed all the signs of the aliens races preparing for war then i dont know how to make it clearer. there was nothing more the alien races could do without creating a complete panic among their people. the entire reason for working with cerberus was because the collectors were working in the terminus, where the alliance was limited. the alliance still did the best it coul to improve its fleets and support project overlord with any collected geth technology. derliect reaper, object rho and edi are only a few of the known alliance reaper operations. there are many more going on that you werent even aware of.

* THe crucible, background story, its working mechanics are all ridiculous. the only way the curcible would have been plausible. is if it was a trap.

* i never wrote they built it, i wrote they have it. it can be studied and used to develop a new one if it will benefit humanity.

* its prespective. if you follow logical points. the picutre becomes clearer.


This just might be beyond your comprehension.

This exchange, is over.

Modifié par erezike, 04 octobre 2013 - 09:15 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

silverexile17s wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

And another thing you have to remember about the reapers. By definition, they cannot be more intelligent than their creators.

I don't know about that.  They probably weren't at first, but then they blended them up took the knowledge by force. I'd think they have all the knowledge.
Unelss you ment how they utilize it. If that's the case, I get that -- after all, the Reapers lack the spark of creativity that us organics do. We can do more with less more abstractly then the Reapers can.

In other words, they're just as intelligent. But they aren't as clever.

I'm making a genralizaion. Say we make a fully sentient AI. The Average IQ is 100. The chances are that the IQ will be 100. If the group of people who made it had an average IQ of 120 (and I'm being generous), then the IQ of the thing statistically would not exceed 120.

So the IQ of a reaper will not exceed the average IQ of the race it harvested. They gain all the knowledge of that race, but I also think they gain the average ability to use knowledge. Having knowledge is one thing. Using knowledge is another. 

[aprilia1k]

I guess my ambivalence was quite justified..   So many subjective opinions, interpretations of things that are so very grey, presented monochromatically.   I will say once more - "it's all space magic" - and "believable" is clearly a relative term.  Substitute "generally acceptable" if you like.  To sieze upon one or two specific words or even statements, remove the context - and then refute them - does not a good argmument make.

Silver* said:  "playing shadow war with terrorists going after the symptioms rather then the cause" --

Shepard was fighting the Reaper's only known "face" at the time, and - wasn't Harbinger actually involved in pretty much every altercation with the Collectors?  I think your interpretation is quite subjective Dude - why would you try to portray it as fact?  I did say I wasn't even talking about the merits of ME2 anyway -- but, for you to present that statement as a fact is.. dare I say - specious.   "Shadow war?"  -- they were abducting whole colonies -- I recall "hundreds of thousands" being tossed around as a number... that's hardly a mere act of terrorism.  And, again - Collectors were agents of Reapers - with Harbinger directing them via one flaming avatar after another.  The only reason I point this out is to get you to examine how your description of that is, at best, your opinion - and hardly fact.

Souv. was.. how big?  2 kilometers iirc?  Very very big.  In Leviathan there's even a rather large chunk sitting in Dr. Bryson's lab, and - to restate, as alleyd quoted Anderson, "..there's no way to account for even half of that thing..".  That is "clearly showing" - it's a direct quote from the game.  So it was not his interpretation, as you said, in direct opposition of Anderson, Liara, et al.  Again - just pointing out some consistency issues with your "facts".

Is it possible that you have not noticed, perhaps due to the extremely courteous and patient manner of reply, that virtually every other participant here is not quite in agreement with most of your assertions?  It's one thing to be the impassioned voice of the contrarian - it's another thing to completely pummel an equine herbivore to dust....  

Boldly underlined text will only take subjective viewpoints, presented as facts, so far. 

Before my potential offenses pile up further, understand that there are many points and observations you've made that I can agree with, and I'm sure that's true of others -- but as to the ME2-rewrite stance, and various assertions in support thereof - Dude, at least take a breath.

[Edit 20131004:0118 PST] - e.g I agree with you, that the crucible/catalyst are not definitively more deus ex  than any number of other technologies or powers in the MEU.  I wouldn't label them as such - in fact I think they could have worked if handled properly.  I totally hated the way it went down; and to see Shepard more or less "shanghaied",  while comic books made Hackett & Liara pals and galactic saviors, was generally unpalatable for me.  That said - I'm a couple months late to the party - some things have been decided already.  I am not going to waste time and bandwidth arguing about these, especially since the other viewpoints definitely have merit, and have already been agreed upon and incorporated in to the effort.  That is - I will not step in and try to un-do a major plot-point which has already been decided - because I can see that any number of possible alternatives can out-do that element of plot.  The fact that they are being dropped in favor of less "space magic", and more careful and gradual plot development is entirely in accord with "getting it right" (IMHO).  Clearly there's faith involved, but it's bolstered by what I can see already.

I'd never call you a quitter - that is for sure. 

Modifié par aprilia1k, 04 octobre 2013 - 08:58 .

[silverexile17s]

erezike wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...


Yes there was. Instead of fighting the threat directly like you did with Sovergein, you're running round fighting the pawns rather then trying to put the king in check, and they're moving freely. We waste time playing black ops with a terror network rather then spending time laying a foundation for the actual fight.

No they weren't. They were all focused on their own problems. The Alliance was rebuilding. The Council was trying to restore order to the Verge after the geth Heretics ripped it a new one. The Terminus was in chaos. The geth were still isolated. The quarians were still homeless and trying to figure out how to survive. The krogan were focused on ending their inner conflicts under either Wrex or Wreve. No one was doing a damn thing to prepare for the Reapers in ME2. That was the entire reason for singing on with Cerberus to begin with -- because there was no war prep. None of the technology you had was anything new. All of it came from advancement made in ME1, not ME2. You are the one limiting your perspective by not facing the facts -- ME2 didn't do anywhere near enough, and your claims run counter to everything explained in the game.

No, it wasn't -- as a dark energy weapon, it would have worked fine. Something that simply focuses and channeled dark energy into a focused blast. Like a gaint warp blast. The way it ended out was bad, but the device itself is conceptually sound -- taking giant dark energy engines like the Mass Relays and Citadel and using them as weapons. 

No they didn't. There's so much wrong with that sentance. Cerberus didn't build that weapon-- they found it by tracing the path of the shot back from Kendagon. The weapon itself was 37 million years old.
It's not on Klendagon - it's shot passed by the world. The shot grazed the world and caused a giant canyon, but it's not the world it was built on. And finally, they revealed the weapon was defunct. It's fossilized by now and completely worthelss. It could be studied, sure, but the thing itself is not in any finctioning condition and never will be again.

Somehow, I doubt what you did with Arrival will be any sort of logical plot.

None of the above have been delt with, as I just pointed out. If anything, you're on an even more illogical path then the ME devs were.

*How is fighting pawns, not fighting the reapers* most of the time you have to get through the pawns before you can take down the king
In mass effect 1 you were fighting pawns through the entire game, the fifth fleet fought the reaper directly.

* if you missed all the signs of the aliens races preparing for war then i dont know how to make it clearer. there was nothing more the alien races could do without creating a complete panic among their people. the entire reason for working with cerberus was because the collectors were working in the terminus, where the alliance was limited. the alliance still did the best it coul to improve its fleets and support project overlord with any collected geth technology. derliect reaper, object rho and edi are only a few of the known alliance reaper operations. there are many more going on that you werent even aware of.

* THe crucible, background story, its working mechanics are all ridiculous. the only way the curcible would have been plausible. is if it was a trap.

* i never wrote they built it, i wrote they have it. it can be studied and used to develop a new one if it will benefit humanity.

* its prespective. if you follow logical points. the picutre becomes clearer.


They were all dealt with. but it might just be beyond your comprehension.

This exchange, is over.

*Because they're pawns. They're replacible, expendible, and we waste massive resources on what they can replace with a clone vat or by taking our people from us. To end this, we need to be striking the King himself, not the drones around him. It's a waste of time, energy, resources, effort, and takes away from building a united force from the scattered galactic factions.
And in ME1, we were fighting a Reaper directly -- their Vanguard, Sovergein. About as direct a blow as you could strike to their plans at that point. Sovergien was like taking out the queen on the chessboard. Everything after that with the Collectors is just pawns and a waste of effort. We should be convincing the galaxy they're coming and get them to do something  about it, not hide in the shadows.

*Wrong. I'f you've missed all the times that we didn't do any of that, IDK what else you expect me to say.
We could have shown them the Collectors and let them know that there is a threat. We could have been trying to get contact with the Spectres again, and get some help talking behind the scenes. We could have taken Legion and Tali and had a sit-down with the quarian admiralty board and stopped any further confilct between the quarians and geth. We could have helped Wrex/Wreve unite/conquer the other krogan clans to unify them for the fight. We could have been talking with anyone Garrus had pull with in the turian Hierarchy, like his father. We could have talked with Matriarch Athyeta and spoke about ways to get the asari off stripper poles and on the field.
There is so, so much we could have done. Just face it -- ME2 was far from the "meat" you keep claiming it was. There were things we could have hunted down. Things we could have looked for. We could have been a bit more proactive in doing something besides chase the Reaper's puppets.

*No it isn't, compared to what we've already seen. The Original concept of the Crucible was a simple weapon of mass destruction -- shoot a giant wave of dark energy like a biotic blast: sole function. But it wasn't enough for the devs-- it needed to be effective against the rest of the Reapers at once. Multiple rewrites later, we get the current version.
Dude, the thing's base function was pretty damn grounded in logic. Remember the "M-490 Blackstar" weapon that created a singularity when you fired it? This is basically the same thing on a much larger scale -- it was orignally ment to strip Reaper barriers and weaken their eezo cores, so that we could actually fight them conventionally.
If you really think that's the only way the Cruicible is plausible, then you haven't spent enough time in the Codex. And before you say it, I do mean the ME1 & ME2 Codex.

* No they can't. It's 37 million years old for one. Two, I thought you were going to ax the whole "Cerberus Empire" thing? Meaning "how the hell would they ever get the resources to repair it, or even build a new one?" And you really think that, after Shepard defects from Cerberus, that the Council will sit still? The only reason they didn't attack was because Shepard was there -- now the Shep's left them, it's open season on Cerberus as far as the Council cares.

*No it isn't. It's simple facts. Ones that are from ME2 and ME1. Ones you keep ignoring.

They haven't been delt with. That seems to be beyond your comprehension.

Now, this exchange is over.

[silverexile17s]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

And another thing you have to remember about the reapers. By definition, they cannot be more intelligent than their creators.

I don't know about that.  They probably weren't at first, but then they blended them up took the knowledge by force. I'd think they have all the knowledge.
Unelss you ment how they utilize it. If that's the case, I get that -- after all, the Reapers lack the spark of creativity that us organics do. We can do more with less more abstractly then the Reapers can.

In other words, they're just as intelligent. But they aren't as clever.

I'm making a genralizaion. Say we make a fully sentient AI. The Average IQ is 100. The chances are that the IQ will be 100. If the group of people who made it had an average IQ of 120 (and I'm being generous), then the IQ of the thing statistically would not exceed 120.

So the IQ of a reaper will not exceed the average IQ of the race it harvested. They gain all the knowledge of that race, but I also think they gain the average ability to use knowledge. Having knowledge is one thing. Using knowledge is another. 

That doesn't really make any sense if you're speaking in a general sense. I mean, look at the geth -- they bypassed that problem completely by internetworking, exceeding their creators intelligence levels and then-some. But they never developed a creative spark -- something the quarians have. You're discounting synthetic adaptation -- upgrades. Self-optimization. Removial of limitations by improving neural pathways, and linking up with fellow constructs to pool data, and discover better ways. The geth alone disprove that belief.

From what both Harbinger and Sovergein displayed with their hyper-advanced communication abilaties, the Reapers can network with each-other the same as the geth can, removing that problem or lacking information.
Now, in the individual sense, what they lack is the organic's "inspiration." That touch of humanity that can see what cold logic alone will never percieve. You are right on the end part, though - They have more overall intelligence then us in terms of knowledge. But they lack the abilaty to use it in creative and abstract ways.

And I also remind you that people with lesser intelligence can still win against those that are smarter then them.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 04 octobre 2013 - 09:13 .

[silverexile17s]

aprilia1k wrote...

I guess my ambivalence was quite justified..   So many subjective opinions, interpretations of things that are so very grey, presented monochromatically.   I will say once more - "it's all space magic" - and "believable" is clearly a relative term.  Substitute "generally acceptable" if you like.  To sieze upon one or two specific words or even statements, remove the context - and then refute them - does not a good argmument make.

Silver* said:  "playing shadow war with terrorists going after the symptioms rather then the cause" --

Shepard was fighting the Reaper's only known "face" at the time, and - wasn't Harbinger actually involved in pretty much every altercation with the Collectors?  I think your interpretation is quite subjective Dude - why would you try to portray it as fact?  I did say I wasn't even talking about the merits of ME2 anyway -- but, for you to present that statement as a fact is.. dare I say - specious.   "Shadow war?"  -- they were abducting whole colonies -- I recall "hundreds of thousands" being tossed around as a number... that's hardly a mere act of terrorism.  And, again - Collectors were agents of Reapers - with Harbinger directing them via one flaming avatar after another.  The only reason I point this out is to get you to examine how your description of that is, at best, your opinion - and hardly fact.

Souv. was.. how big?  2 kilometers iirc?  Very very big.  In Leviathan there's even a rather large chunk sitting in Dr. Bryson's lab, and - to restate, as alleyd quoted Anderson, "..there's no way to account for even half of that thing..".  That is "clearly showing" - it's a direct quote from the game.  So it was not his interpretation, as you said, in direct opposition of Anderson, Liara, et al.  Again - just pointing out some consistency issues with your "facts".

Is it possible that you have not noticed, perhaps due to the extremely courteous and patient manner of reply, that virtually every other participant here is not quite in agreement with most of your assertions?  It's one thing to be the impassioned voice of the contrarian - it's another thing to completely pummel an equine herbivore to dust....  

Boldly underlined text will only take subjective viewpoints, presented as facts, so far. 

Before my potential offenses pile up further, understand that there are many points and observations you've made that I can agree with, and I'm sure that's true of others -- but as to the ME2-rewrite stance, and various assertions in support thereof - Dude, at least take a breath.

[Edit 20131004:0118 PST] - e.g I agree with you, that the crucible/catalyst are not definitively more deus ex  than any number of other technologies or powers in the MEU.  I wouldn't label them as such - in fact I think they could have worked if handled properly.  I totally hated the way it went down; and to see Shepard more or less "shanghaied",  while comic books made Hackett & Liara pals and galactic saviors, was generally unpalatable for me.  That said - I'm a couple months late to the party - some things have been decided already.  I am not going to waste time and bandwidth arguing about these, especially since the other viewpoints definitely have merit, and have already been agreed upon and incorporated in to the effort.  That is - I will not step in and try to un-do a major plot-point which has already been decided - because I can see that any number of possible alternatives can out-do that element of plot.  The fact that they are being dropped in favor of less "space magic", and more careful and gradual plot development is entirely in accord with "getting it right" (IMHO).  Clearly there's faith involved, but it's bolstered by what I can see already.

I'd never call you a quitter - that is for sure. 

No, my interpertation is not subjective here, because Harbinger wasn't directly involved. He was about a thousand light-years away giving orders. In ME1, it was a direct involvement because Sovergien was there, leading things personally. With Harbinger, it's fighting faceless puppes on remote control, and not doing anything to strike at the Reapers directly or prepare for their comming arrival. I think your comprehension is what's subjective here, pal. It is a fact -- ME2 didn't do anything to strike at the enemy. As  I said the the post with @erezkie, there is a ton of things we could have done but didn't do. A ton of wasted potential.
And FYI, what else do you call fighting alongside an illegal black ops group under the cover of being dead for two years, fighting a threat no one knows about without governent aid? I'm pretty sure that fits the definition of "Shadow War" exactally. I mean, do I really have to remind you how the dissipearing colonies got little to no attention from the Council, who brushed it off as pirates? Even the Alliance wrote off those colonies as unrelated slaver attacks.
And again. Harbinger wasn't there directly leading them like Sovergein was for the geth. The Collectors were pawns, and we wasted time focusing all our attention on them rather then try and get allies.  So far, what's "opinion" is your words, while what I've said is backed by what actually happened in the game.

Again, most of that would be SLAG. Or at the most, simple armor. All the precious core components -- the power core, eezo core, processing center, all the "organs" -- would be slagged or fired. The rest would be damaged or detsroyed when they collieded with the Citadel. Any that do survive colliding with the Citadel are either scrap, or they're recycled by the keepers. Once again, I cite the simple law of equivilant exhange -- if any substantical tech had survived, we would be farther alone by now. All we have is one gun, and one A.I. Ergo, There's nothing left of any value. In "Leviathan," that fragment of Sovergein did jack-all to help us, now didn't It? It was just a simple piece of armor -- nothing technologically siginifgant. You're confusing a piece of armor with being some precious godsend - it's not. All the important core parts of the ship got cored when the thing blew up.
It is clearly shown when the ship is destoryed that the core - where everything of value is - was obliterated. Hardly anything would have survived. Hell, the only surviving pieces of Sovergein's core processing system are likely the ones inside EDI's core.
Just correcting you on the consistancy of these facts -- which you keep ignoring.

And  the same exact things that were wrong in what they said applied to you.  Same faults -- different assumptions.

No. That's just underlining what I say. it's not representitive of my tone of voice.

I'm just being honest -- ME2 dropped the narrative ball in bridging the start of the series with the upcomming war. You need another three years between them, or to have done more with the time given to us. ME2 did neither.

And there's a difference between dropping something because it doesn't work, and dropping something because you didn't like it. The Crucible was more practical in it's original concept -- see my reply to @erezkie to know what I'm talking about.

[silverexile17s]

alleyd wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Again, most of that would be SLAG. Or at the most, simple armor. All the precious core components -- the power core, eezo core, processing center, all the "organs" -- would be slagged or fired. The rest would be damaged or detsroyed when they collieded with the Citadel. Any that do survive colliding with the Citadel are either scrap, or they're recycled by the keepers. Once again, I cite the simple law of equivilant exhange -- if any substantical tech had survived, we would be farther alone by now. All we have is one gun, and one A.I. Ergo, There's nothing left of any value. In "Leviathan," that fragment of Sovergein did jack-all to help us, now didn't It? It was just a simple piece of armor -- nothing technologically siginifgant. You're confusing a piece of armor with being some precious godsend - it's not. All the important core parts of the ship got cored when the thing blew up.
It is clearly shown when the ship is destoryed that the core - where everything of value is - was obliterated. Hardly anything would have survived. Hell, the only surviving pieces of Sovergein's core processing system are likely the ones inside EDI's core.
Just correcting you on the consistancy of these facts -- which you keep ignoring.

Sorry I'm lost. You say in the same statement that there was no precious core components, then make reference to EDI? I think she is more logically re-engineered from a critical component of the Reaper that served the same function, not a piece of charred slag. You keep insisting that Reapers are billions of years ahead of us, yet a small terrorist group was able to reverse engineer and reconstruct a Reaper derived AI.

In case you retort about reduced capability, In the S/M, EDI was able to withstand the hacking power of a Reaper Controlled giant apparatus for the entire S/M timescale and then override the critical internal security and platforms,  even the controls to the Central Power Core. The Collector base is the second largest construction that the Reapers are credited with having influenced or built, yet one tiny human Frigate hacked it for a digital eternity.

The Codex says we're Billions of years behind the Reapers, yet EDI's construction and capability prove it false.

Let's look at the Thanix system a bit more?
WIKi mentions that the humans and Turians spent 3 months collecting the remains and there was a reverse engineered prototype in 11 months. Then it was in mass prodcution retrofit across multiple allies (Human and Turian at least) within 3 years. Not only reverse engineered, but the whole production and operation process in 3 years? 

In case you retort about reduced capability. When compared in the same screen to the Collector Vessel, the Normandy appears vastly smaller.



The Normandy is a large vessel, no official canon dimensions were released in ME2, but scaled up from FMV analysis and official models, the Ship is around 380mtrs in length. Compare that with the Collector Vessel in this perspective, the Normandy is in the foreground and the full size of the ship is hidden by persepctive. One thing is definitive, that ship is not Cruiser sized, not even the size of an Alliance Dreadnought, Its virtually the same size as Sovereign, An Apex Reaper, the largest, accoridng to Codex

Taken down by a frigate in seconds, so we have a bit of the Reapers bite in mass Production and use in less than 3 years.

Suddenly the Billions of years advantage claim is very suspect. 

I quoted Anderson's contradcition to Reaper Tech, here is further evidence on this Y/T  link at 26.36 onwards


It shows pieces of Reaper structure, around 4mtrs or so tall and 6 mtrs in length, based on the scale of the trees around it. There are larger pieces out of shot, and this is just one frame. Evidence that large and relatively complete structures of Reaper survived.

Reference an exploding core, it didn't annhiliate its atoms,or even blast nuclear radioactivity if people on the Citadel were capable of living, it was a smaller explosive  reaction and it would still leave all the atoms intact for study. 

Of course this isn't in lore, but it is in game

The galaxy had the material and the need and the sub structure to reverse engineer it. The material acquired was reengineered into production in 3 years, Of course the Coucnil are keeping stum, they're getting rich and they're controlling the message.

All this had  nothing to do with the players story in the ME2 game, but the galaxy is not a one man show. Life happens, and you can guarantee that in a capitalist society, the value of Reaper Tech will be astronomical and you where told of unofficial salvage, you flew in the results of part of that salvage, but technology like that would not exist alone.

It's wise not to fall for the trick of thinking that  the absence of evidence = evidence of absence. Especially when game sources and dialogue flatly contradict a false interpretation or assumption.

I think you missed something.

I said that none of the core processors survived. Whatever parts are in EDI would be minor sub-processors, not core processors. Big difference -- EDI isn't any match for a Reaper in one-on-one hacking. They didn't reverse-engineer EDI from Reaper-Tech, as shown in the logs on Cronos Station -- they basically took the Hannibal V.I. from Luna, plugged Reaper-Tech into it and crossed their fingers. They never replicated the effort to make an A.I. with Reaper-Tech, you might notice -- likely because the result would not be predictable.

No, she wasn't. That thing was an automated Reaper-virus, not an actual Reaper. Plus, by the time of the Suicide Mission, she had the Reaper IFF, which was basically the key to the system. So that doesn't count at all.

We are billions of years behind them, and we only succeeded because we got lucky by finding a master-key to their viral codes (The Reaper IFF). We still don't know anything about how the tech works. Hell, the Reaper IFF neary killed us to use, and if not for unlocking EDI's restrained functions, the thing would have overwhelmed EDI. And as stated before, EDI is hardly an acomplishemnt, since they just plugged in the Reaper-Tech and prayed it wouldn't claim to be the "Vanguard of our destruction." Why do you think Cerberus shackled her in the first place?

Again, it's one gun. Compared to the armor, sensors, shields, ME field, computer codes, and point-defense system that weren't able to be salvaged, one gun isn't euqal returns. Plus, the Collector ship is much weaker and more fragile then a Reaper -- it doesn't have barriers the same strength as a Reaper vessel, and is made of of semi-organic hive compound for the outer hull, which isn't as durible as a Reaper hull.
And I remind you that in the following two years after that, it still isn't avalible for public use and armament, not even past it's private production statge by the time of ME2. One gun in three years is nothing compared to the total possible information that could have been glemed, but wasn't because of the lack of surviving and/or usible pieces.

Once again, the Collector Ship is half-cosntructed out of flimsy silicone hive-material. It's nowhere near as dense or durible as a Reaper ship, made from weaker materials and having weaker barriers, and as we've seen during the "Collector Ship" mission, the interior is mostly hollow, leaving little structural reinforcement if it takes direct hits. So please stop making that comparison with Reapers. Size is all they have in common. Nothing more.

Meaning the "billions of years" claim is no more suspect then it was an hour ago -- which is to say, it wasn't.

Oh, good grief, dude, all that is slagged. Or at the very least, smashed up internally beyond repair from the impact of crashing into the Citadel. Hell, half of what's in that room was likely recycled by the keepers the next day, since they congrigate around the Citadel Tower more then any other spot on the station. Any that survived, is a cunk of a toe, What technology of value are we going to get from a Reaper toe? Esepcally a charred, smashed-up one?

And shouldn't the fact that Anderson says "we don't have much to look at" after seeing that room prove to you that not much of it survived, or was recovered in working condition? The core "organs" were obliterated when Sovergein blew up. What survived was either smashed up when it hit the Citadel, or recycled by the keepers. Most of what survived would have been unusibe.

You want a refrence, watch the vid you just showed me. At 25:49 onward, watch the shot core the center of the Reaper, blasting out a good protion of it's core components. Then, watch the red inferno leaking through the cracks in it's shell as it's internal components are flash-roasted from the inside-out by it's ruptured core. Then, wacth the explosion that rips it to shreads, showing the insides are smouldering slag at this point. "Atoms" to jack-all for us. We need the core components intact to study them. A strip of metal from a lamp-post is "atoms" too, but you can't do much by reverse-engineering that. It needs to be intact and functional to get anything from it. Everything Sovergien isn't.

The galaxy didn't have the material because it was just raw mass -- most of it fried or slagged scrap metal. It didn't have the need because no one knew the threat existed -- your entire reason for siding with Cerberus to begin with. It didn't have the sub-structure because there was little to no functioning or valuible tech left among the wreckage and slagged scrap that was Sovergein. The Citadel isn't doing jack. Again, the entire reason you join Cerberus is because of this. Anderson confirms it, and the lack of activity from them on the Shadow Broker network clinches it. They aren't keeping mum, because they aren't doing anything.

Yet, one person is the only thing that saved it repeatedly. That's kinda the point of RPG's -- go on quest, get help along the way, save the day. It centers around one person and the advantures they have, and in the case of fantasy-sci fi like this, save everything and everyone by doing that.
Again, the Shadow Broker network found nothing. If such tech existed, Liara would have known about it. It never turned up -- AKA, it never happened. There's nothing left of value from Sovergein that survived the explosion of the ship.

It's also wise to acknowledge the simple facts when they're right in front of you. Lack of progress = lack of surviving valuble tech. Especally when the entire basis of the game is based upon the simple fact that no one's doing anything to prep.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

And the reapers do not invent. The reapers are Leviathan tech and nothing more. We develop along the technological paths they desire. Every cycle develops Leviathan tech. The IFF is software. Can I ask how "no one has ever returned from the Omega 4 relay before" because they allegedly need this magical Reaper IFF to do it. Why? Because drift can put you in a black hole. Well, Cerberus got in just fine afterward. Why? Because the crew on that derelict reaper had already sent a copy of the software to TIM. You went there to retrieve it? For what? To see what happened to the crew and destroy the derelict reaper so the Alliance couldn't go there and study it, and Shepard could have no proof of the reapers. Nothing magic about it. But this is also speculation.

They come in and cap the galaxy before the civilizations surpass them in tech. Without their magic ability to indoctrinate, and their tech's magic ability to indoctrinate, if a civilization ever surpassed their tech level, they'd be beaten. The protheans came close.

But here we also have to remember that Bioware purposely kept the lore so general that it would be open for speculation.

The quote at the bottom of the endings: "Speculations from everyone"

Are you speculating?

[silverexile17s]

alleyd wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

I think you missed something. 

I said that none of the core processors survived. Whatever parts are in EDI would be minor sub-processors, not core processors. Big difference -- EDI isn't any match for a Reaper in one-on-one hacking. They didn't reverse-engineer EDI from Reaper-Tech, as shown in the logs on Cronos Station -- they basically took the Hannibal V.I. from Luna, plugged Reaper-Tech into it and crossed their fingers. They never replicated the effort to make an A.I. with Reaper-Tech, you might notice -- likely because the result would not be predictable.

No I didn't, you contradicted yourself  and fail to grasp what the term REVERSE ENGINEERING means. 

"Reverse engineering[/b] is the process of discovering the technological principles of a device, object, or system through analysis of its structure, function, and operation. It often involves disassembling something (a mechanical device, electronic component, computer program, or biological, chemical, or organic matter) and analyzing its components and workings in detail - for either purposes of maintenance or to support creation of a new device or program that does the same thing, without using or simply duplicating (without understanding) the original"

Cerberus did precisely that function with the creation of EDI and then "plugged  Reaper tech into it". You even said that yourself in the same sentence as your denial of my observation that Cerberus actually used Reaper Technology in the creation of the system. (The Hardware architecture most likely imo, the Lunar VI was Software, just one element in a much larger system.) 

silverexile17s wrote...
No, she wasn't. That thing was an Reaper-virus, not an actual Reaper. Plus, by the time of the Suicide Mission, she had the Reaper IFF, which was basically the key to the system. So that doesn't count at all.

Maybe in your headcanon, Understanding the IFF is a remarkable technical achievement, cracking the cryptographic codes of a billion year old being and integrating it into current technology effectively. It counts for a LOT, and it disproves your belief that the Reapers are so advanced we can't understand them. We can understand the most fundamental part of their communication and we can override it as well. Cryptography is HARD science, especially if you have a totally alien system


All evidence in game of Harbinger actually controlling active elements of the chain, including the central network,  can give the observation that Harbinger was controlling the synthetic defence of its base as well, and that would infer that he was the one attacking EDI. The Collector base was controlled by Harbinger, Harbinger is a Reaper. Muster EVERY defence and "ASSUME CONTROL"  Add them together, Harbinger attacked EDI. 

I'm not going to go any further with a tedious debate, or indulge you whatever small intellectual satisfaction you may gain by proving your interpretation as " fact. "

Fact is you have posted wrong quotes, ignore gameplay evidence,  and make wild assumptions. Seem to believe in the superstitious hyping that derailed the franchise and on one hand claim that its all space magic and nonsense, but you then show a fundamentalist zeal in defending the nonsense.

Consider this, you sent me a PM message about an idea you had to rewrite a section of ME universe. You made an addition that you felt was logically bettered justified in the short message you sent me. In doing so you changed the lore. You applied external knowledge to something that you felt was incongruous in the MEU and gave a succinct explanation to the change. You deviated from Lore

My response was positive and encouraging, Was it not? I could EASILY trashed your ideas as being a change from lore, but I CHOSE not to. I only ASK that you reserve the same for others with their attempts at communicating their vision and changes they would make to the MEU. Yet you are discourteous enough not to extend the same in return, indeed you seem to take immense satisafaction in attempting to trash the interpretation or inspiration of another person. 

This thread was started by a fan asking other fans to contribute ideas to a group based alternative interpretation of the Mass Effect Universe. It is in the fan Creations section of the Social Community, where people who are creatively inspired by the Mass Effect brand have a chance to express their creativity, in any form they can or choose to do. Whether it be painting a scene of Krogan babies or attempting to reimagine the entire phase space of stories that the Mass Effect universe contains. This thread is blatantly advertising its theme as personal expression of a reimagined Mass Effect story, that has different authors and different themes it wishes to explore. All official lore is up for reimagining or extending or twisting in any way these authors feel needful to justify their theme, you did it yourself and I bet it felt good that others support your vision. Give other people the same chance and actually participate in that manner. Not much to ask.

If you want to keep to Lore, save yourself some energy and argue your point with people who may actually value the "debate"  Try out the story discussion boards, they are fit for purpose more than this thread. This  is most definitely NOT the place to debate the rights and wrongs of anyone's perception of the official canon and lore, no one is wrong and no one knows what is FACT. The tagline, written in the handwriting of one of the leads and distributed in official product says "Speculation for Everyone"  what that means is any ones guess, I certainly have no clue and  and unless I am speaking to any of the creative team of Bioware about the central themes and design/script/lore decisions made during the lifetime of the franchise, neither have you.

Wrong again. You failed to comprehend and grasp the simple fact that IF there's NOTHING to reverse-Engineer, the process FAILES because it NEVER TOOK PLACE TO BEGIN WITH.

According to the logs in Chronos Station, Cerberus did NONE of what you just described. The scientist said that they grafted the tech into EDI, meaning they put the original components into her, [/b]INSTEAD of reverse-engineering them. TIM said the entire point of the Shackles was because he didn't know how 'it' would think and didn't trust 'it.' It's right there in plain sight. There was no reverse-engineering dony by Cerberus on the tech because they couldn't afford to risk destroying their only working samples. It's not rocket-science @Alleyed -- you have to disect the tech to reverse-engineer it, meaning you can't re-use it. And there was only enough to use in Making EDI. Making an A.I. that could operate with Reaper-level efficancy was more important then reverse-engineering the tech, so they just plugged it in.

And EDI has their tech, but is not proficiant enough to use it to beat the Reapers. Not without soucre-codes to their systems -- the Reaper IFF. She basically needs one to have any chance of standing up to them -- she herself says that the Reaper virus programs inside it exceeded the Anti-Reaper codes that were in her black box. It's not headcannon, pal -- it really happened. There is no "amazing technological feat" because EDI does Not understand the IFF anymore then we understand the Mass Relays -  which BTW, more then prove that you can use tech like this without knowing how it operates or how to replicate it. It counts for nothing because EDI is just using them without understanding, like a caveman would use a gun to fight without knowing how to re-create the device. There is a difference between using something and understanding it's workings, and the Mass Relays and Citadel (and Crucible) all prove. All this througholly disproves your belief that we have anything onhow to understand  the Reapers - especally since ME2's entire story revolved around the fact that we have not been able to understand them. So please, stop overestimating.

But he's NOT HERE. With Sovergein, you were making a direct strike on the Reaper's movements. You crippled their arrival by killing their vanguard. Here, you're just wasting time with drones while Harbinger sits light-years away in dark space, laughing at how nothing you do is delaying their advance. The only thing in the entire game that was an actual blow against the Reapers was the "Arrival DLC" events. Everything with the Collectors was was an inconvinece to them rather then an actual blow to their plans -- I mean,we did nothing to lay groundwork for uniting the galaxy. We wasted all the time on the Collectors -- on the mindless drones, rather then making any effort to prepare for their masters. And the Collector General was controled by Harbinger. The base was automated. As were the majority of the counter-intrustion systems.

I think the above has proven the opposite, -- I'm the one listening to the facts in the game. You're subscribing to overestimation blind optimisim.

Wrong.  That's was your MO with what happened in ME2. You posted false interpertations to quotes in the game. You take Anderson's direct admittance that "we don't have to look at" and say "they've got lots of it hidden away?" Even though Cerberus and the Broker network all corrilate what Anderson said? I believe that there are better alternitives to beating the Reapers, without ignoring the fundemnetal baseline cannon in the game -- something you've given up on. I disagree with the route the story took with rushed narrative, not the space-fanatsy lore of the game itself. I disagree with practial things like simplified character development, ect, not the tech like Relays or the Cruicible or the Reapers. The simple truth is that none of that prep happened in ME2. You can't change that, because it's acore part of the game's story and why you join Cerberus at all. The entire existance of ME2 disproves your theroy -- end of story.

And my PM was actually grounded in what we did know about Reaper tech, and how Object Rho worked. I did that without having to subscribe to the headcannon idea that the Council was actually prepping for the threat, since (A) noithing of noteworthy value survived Sovergien's destruction besides a few minor articles of tech, and ( they don't believe the Reapers exist. I showed a different direction that the lore could take without taking the easier way out by retconning everything that didn't agree with my idea. I worked [/u]through the problem going against the Reaper's Arrival, not around it. I dervived from the timeline of the story without changeing the baseline lore of the two past games.

And good. Do so. I'd [b]like that. If my work doesn't get trashed by someone, I might never be able to see flaws in it that I didn't see before and fix them accordingly. Harsh critisim is just as good as positive critisim -- both help me figure out a route to take.

Problem is, it was done under the request to not alter ME2 or ME1's lore. Your ideas are the exact opposate, needing major rewrite of events in ME2, and partial change of ME1.
And seeing faults in things is just how it happens for me -- I'm OCD, a nit-picker, and the biggest cynical sceptic I know. If I see a fault or flaw in pre-established lore that hasn't been accounted for, I point ot out.

But when the lore you say you aren't changing - the same lore you say you're keeping, is in fact the same exact lore that [u]contridicts what you're doing, it becomes a bit of a paradox.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 05 octobre 2013 - 05:49 .

[silverexile17s]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

And the reapers do not invent. The reapers are Leviathan tech and nothing more. We develop along the technological paths they desire. Every cycle develops Leviathan tech. The IFF is software. Can I ask how "no one has ever returned from the Omega 4 relay before" because they allegedly need this magical Reaper IFF to do it. Why? Because drift can put you in a black hole. Well, Cerberus got in just fine afterward. Why? Because the crew on that derelict reaper had already sent a copy of the software to TIM. You went there to retrieve it? For what? To see what happened to the crew and destroy the derelict reaper so the Alliance couldn't go there and study it, and Shepard could have no proof of the reapers. Nothing magic about it. But this is also speculation.

They come in and cap the galaxy before the civilizations surpass them in tech. Without their magic ability to indoctrinate, and their tech's magic ability to indoctrinate, if a civilization ever surpassed their tech level, they'd be beaten. The protheans came close.

But here we also have to remember that Bioware purposely kept the lore so general that it would be open for speculation.

The quote at the bottom of the endings: "Speculations from everyone"

Are you speculating?

No, they don't invent -- they don't need to. They always make sure their harvests are done before we get to that level. And the Leviathans say the Reapers made the Relays, so the Relays do count as Reaper tech, even if they did steal the designs from the Leviathans.
And the likely solution for that is that Cerberus extracted or copied some of the source-codes from the IFF -- likely Kelly Chambers, back before she realized that Cerberus wasn't all sunshine and flowers. Remember, she was still Cerberus, even though Shepard wasn't, and she went back to them after all was said and done. EDI had access to the IFF for at bit before the virus disabled the Normandy -- enough time to copy some of the codes.
It's still not enough, since copying an access signiture isn't the same as effectively using it. So, no, that team didn't send anything to TIM from the Reaper directly -- if they had, TIM wouldn't have sent you to begin with.

No, the protheans didn't. Liara was talking about the Crucible when she said that. Javik, and before him Vigil, both set the record straight -- in the conventional fight against the Reapers, it was a one-sided slaughter, same as always.

Look at what's happened in-game. If there's no advacement, then no new tech was aquiered. If there was any secret movement, we would have joined that instead of Cerberus. Those are simple facts.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 05 octobre 2013 - 05:59 .

[silverexile17s]

alleyd wrote...

 Leviathan was supposed to outline the ending a bit more, an after release addition to the franchise, released to reconcile/or outline the Reapers creation
That was the intention BUT, it confirmed that this was not a Science fiction, it had more magic and total impossibilities thrust into the script, and there is NOTHING scientific about the existence of a living Leviathan in this cycle.
Its Organic life, it must have evolved through a chain of ancestry to suit the challenges of its environment. Yet it can live in totally opposite environments, the cold vacuum of space, where the temperature is below that required for complex organic chemistry to function, all the way through to the relatively hot environment of the deep ocean of an aqueous world. What sort of natural environment could generate the evolutionary pressures that are totally opposite to the other and account for all the differences in between those states, the total extremes in pressure, energy retention, ability to resist the highly radioactive environments that exist in nature, Each variation needs more justification
What did this creature Eat? Life gets the energy for its existence through food, the Leviathan  would need massive amounts of energy to sustain itself, and even more to actually traverse space, energy to keep its form warm enough and generate the extreme energy requirements of fast travel. This can only be replenished from food intake

How could it actually travel through space? Did it have a way of gathering the fuel from external resources, eg gathering atoms from the vaccum, converting them in its body and expelling them to thrust itself forward? Or did it use Leviathan farts to push its way through space?

More importantly, how could examples have survived for Billions of years through all the changes that have happened and escape the attention of its progeny, the Reapers? 

These questions have no answer in the Lore, mainly because of the need to avoid looking at them too closely from external perspectives and test for solutions. The SCIENCE part. Instead the Lore waves these basic questions away and the end result is its appearance as "Magic". 

What IF, you took the magic out and reran the universe in a consistant logic based on the change in the franchise? You would get a different end solution. Would it be viable? That is up to the skill of author in framing their vision and making use of the varaibles their lore needs. Will the end result reconcile with existing game Lore? that's easy to answer, NO.

It was capable of surviving in space, so it conciquenscially must be able to survive on land too. And again, it's thrall races would have built aprattus to them to use on the ground, like the Mass Effect anti-gravity pads that the hanar use to stay upright on land when they lack a skeletal structure.

Whales do it through consumption of micro-orginisims. Hell, for all we know, Leviathan can filter-feed. The oceans are where a majority of life on the planet can be found in or by -- it's not like they would ever have to worry about a shortage of food sources.

It's shells evolved to withstand the massive pressure of the bottom of the ocean. That would be the same as how it would be in the vaccum of space - their shells are completely air-tight and sealed. They're like giant crabs -- they've already got a naturally-evolved hard-suit. All you'd need is something to cover the mouth and they're golden. And it's possible they used biotics to travel -- they did require eezo, after all. Other then that, an apperatus for spaceflight they built from wrecks or whatever tech they could, constructed by thralls.

As I told you before, I was iffy on that. They have long life-spans, and I don't know how big the original population of Leviathan survivors was -- for all we know, these are the last children out of a hundred survivors.

So, as you can see, there is no "science part" that contridicts their existance either.

As I said before, just look at the Codex -- that's already done with the Reaper's indoctrination -- it's all subsonic waves. The same is likely true for how the Leviathan's communicate: subsonic waves stimulating different parts of the brain.

[silverexile17s]

alleyd wrote...

 Silver I am not WRONG in the definition of reverse engineering in this context. They (Cerberus) and (Turians) took examples of a technology and/or material, did a thorough analysis and engineered it into a different form. Wether it be Reaper main gun into Thannix, Reaper cryptographic codes in to the IFF, or Reaper Tech "plugged in" to create EDI. These are all examples of REVERSE engineering performed on Reaper Technology that were built into the timeframe. 

There is a substantial amount of technology, as was proved in ME1 FMV, and was confirmed in the Anderson statement. You take your impression of these statements and look for supporting evidence in the LORE without questioning its validaty or reframing it. Chronos station happens in the ME3 timeline and Script, as this thread is about a reimagining of this timeframe,this information has little or no bearing on an alternative reimagining.

I'm not deviating from the OP's reasons and breaking the conventions of forum by having any more lore debates about our difference in perspective. I repeat though, unless you are one of the Creative Team of Bioware and were directly involved in the creation of the story, you have the same validity in your interpretation of events or Lore as any other person. Neither of us is RIGHT and neither is WRONG factually, we only have an opinion. And opinions are not facts, especially if the subject in question is a speculative excercise or has no actual grounding in reality.

To critique something with a preconceived opinion is a form of Bias, also in certain cultures, to be critical is to be discourteous. I would refrain from a critique of a factoid of data that is obviously a small part of a larger piece. Until I read through how the author used their source data in the context of a complete work,  I would not choose to critique individual points. It's like forming an opinion of a painting from a single brushstroke.  That form of critical approach says volumes more about the critic than the author.

And in reference again to Erzike's criteria, they are his to choose and resolve as best he can., as is mine or any other fan who wishes to reimagine any of the MEU, no-one needs to seek the approval or service the opinions of another fan, maybe take heed of a constructive form of criticism. That is nowhere near the form that you have displayed to my eyes. I view your criticism as invalid, biased, wrong headed and throughly destructive and you have little real credibility as the role you have appointed yourself, Arrogance in my part to write your opinions off so casually,? In defence I tried to engage in positive communication with you, you refuse the same in return and this conversation is over.

Apologies to others for diverting the thread into a tedious Lore debate.

Alleyd, yes, you ARE wrong in your definition of reverse-engineering, because you need tech to reverse-engineer.
Which there isn't any in the sense you're using. They (Cerbeurs) Didn't reverse-engineer the tech -- they pluged it into to a V.I. and crossed their fingers. They didn't do anything else to the tech because that would require disceting it, and losing the possible benifets of having the tech intact.  And as for them (turians), they had to work with humans to get enough salavge, and even then, it only amounted to one gun -- one gun that still wasn't even past private production two years later. Face facts. Cerberus didn't do jack with what they had other then taking a leap of faith, and the rest of the galaxy only managed to cobble enough surviving tech from the 2 kilometer ship to make just one new gun. Just what other proof do need that we don't know what the hell we're doing with this stuff? This isn't rocket sicence Alleyd, no matter how much you try to play it off as such. The Reaper IFF and the Creation of EDI are examples of using the tech blindly, NOT of reverse-engineering the tech to create our own variants, because we didn't reverse the tech. And the turians are hardly shining examples of your belief, since in two years, all they got from Sovergein was one gun, which wasn't even ready for public production until six months later.

[/b]Wrong again. Once more, I point you to the vid of Sovergein breaking up, energy spilling out of it as all it's core "organs" are roasted from the inside-out by it's own ruptured power core. And also, here's  a little tip --  when Anderson says that they can't even account for half the thing, he's being straight with you, Most of it is gone -- when it's parts crashed into the station, they were either wrecked by the impact, or recycled by the keepers. And just by looking at the explosion that killed Sovergein, most of the wreckage would be bits of armor or melted slag. Anderson also confirms that nothing that did survive the blast was any more advanced then what they got from the geth -- they couldn't even tell that the geth didn't create it. So much for advancement if between half of it being slagged, damaged, and more being recycled, what little survived is no more ground-breaking then the geth's tech, which we already salvaged in abundance. Just face facts. There's nothing of any real value that survived Sovergien's death besides what's already inside EDI, and those aren't even core components. You don't even listen to the lore when everything is contridicting you. You have to look for some hidden message everywhere when we already know from three seperate sources (Lack of activity on Shadow Broker network, TIM's statements, Anderson's admission) that there's noithing. You can't "re-imagine" what isn't there to begin with -- it completely invalidates ME2's plot of joining Cerberus, which I thought you were avoiding doing.

It's not a "difference in perspective" -- you're ignoring the simple facs in the Lore. Plain and simple. You'd have to completely x out ME2 with your ideas, because you wouldn't even have joined Cerberus to begin with if any of that was true -- you would have learded via the Shadow Broker network, or Anderson would have told you to get you away from Cerberus. If you want to keep ME2 intact (which you said you did), then that means sticking to the actual story in ME2, in which these Ideas cannot possibly exist because they comprimise the entire basis of the opening plot. You just aren't thinking this through.My poinion is based on the facts that you yourself said were part of the foundation for your re-write -- the maintaining of ME2.

No, it isn't. Finding flaws lets you know what to fix -- if there is any potential flaw to fix or repair. It's not "bias" -- just a critisim, positive or negitive. And unlike you apperantly, I keep the Codex close at hand with the games, so I have seen the whole picture, and study it before I post. So you may want to rethink that a bit.

AGAIN, you claimed the same route. You wanted to re-write ME3 and keep ME2's story intact. Which, for the same reasons, isn't possible. You're ideas invalidate the entire opening plot, and the simple statistics that were proven fact -- miniscule advancement in two years = little functioning technology. Joining up with Cerberus = no one else is doing anything behind closes doors. It's not my approval -- it's the baseline plot and lore of the game. It's not me that you need to worry about -- you simply aren't keeping in check with the very lore you claim you want to preserve, makininh YOUR comments "invalid, biased, wrong headed and throughly destructive, and you have
little real credibility as the role you have appointed yourself - Arrogance in my part to write your opinions off so casually."
They're invalid because they ignore the basis of the lore you said you would keep, their biased because they ignore any and all critique given simply because you don't want to see a problem, they are wrong-headed because they go in the complete opposite direction you claimed you wanted, and throughly destructive because it's the same thing you accused BioWare of doing -- throwing out lore and plot consistancy. They can't do it but you can? Wow.
You have little real credibility because you've proven multiple times that you obviously heven't read the Codex for this information and disregard the characters themselves telling you stright-up your theroies about war-prep aren't true
It's not "lore debate," it's simple fact, proven by the game's events themselves. You refuse to [b]acknowledge that, and thus the conversation is over.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 05 octobre 2013 - 10:35 .

[silverexile17s]

alleyd wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

It was capable of surviving in space, so it conciquenscially must be able to survive on land too. And again, it's thrall races would have built aprattus to them to use on the ground, like the Mass Effect anti-gravity pads that the hanar use to stay upright on land when they lack a skeletal structure.

That is the same as saying that humans can live in space because we can live on land without technology. 

The thrall statement is speculative, without a true historical source or grounding in Lore, it's your impression or assumption made from a couple of ambiguous and unexplained statements

Whales do it through consumption of micro-orginisims. Hell, for all we know, Leviathan can filter-feed. The oceans are where a majority of life on the planet can be found in or by -- it's not like they would ever have to worry about a shortage of food sources.

That is feeding on another lifeform and that lifeform would require to have been in place prior to the Leviathan and its ancestors and it would have to exist in far higher numbers in bodymass to sustain the Leviathan's hunger and to breed and survive. How can this bio mass exist in space AND in the total opposite environment of Hydrogen Monoxide, the universal solvent? How had it escaped the Reapers attention for billions of years? These were formed from Leviathans and  would know what food the Organics need and where to find it. If they suspected a Leviathan existed, simply stake out the food, or wipe IT out

The largest biomasses in nature are the smallest. There are 20 times the mass of Viruses in the Oceans than there is Whale biomass, and even higher numbers when you get to the bacteria and archea level

It's shells evolved to withstand the massive pressure of the bottom of the ocean. That would be the same as how it would be in the vaccum of space - their shells are completely air-tight and sealed. They're like giant crabs -- they've already got a naturally-evolved hard-suit. All you'd need is something to cover the mouth and they're golden.

Crabs do not exist in space and sea. Also there is no " truly effective Pressure Hull" in nature, the construction and limitations of such a shell have more restrictions on life than benefits. It would need to grow, breathe, eat and excrete. It would need holes in the structure and flex built in to the system. Also there ae restrictions in the size of hard shelled creatures imposed by gravity and atmospheric pressures. 

In the sea A leviathans shell would need to account for the tremendous gravitational variables as applies to ours.  Its massive size would be of more importance than a hard shell. The Sperm whale can travel between 1g and the massive pressures of the deep ocean, its pulpy mass and large size, and internal skeleton enable this abilityl. Take a giant aqeous animal like a whale out of the water, it dies unable to move. Take it into Zero gravity?  I predict it would get messy

The pressure variation between the sea and space is FAR too extreme for any organic to have evolved, they are opposite pressure enviroments and cannot exist in nature in the same habitat at the same time for the timescales for the evolution of the Leviathan. It's a complex lifeform, its had to evolve over a vast period of time and through many generations

Bioware chose a Squidy type body form, tentacles and long, streamlined body inspired by a natural animal. It is therefore justified to a degree to apply the known data of the Earth type creature to the animal. The benefits of its shape in evolutionary terms and its restrictions. I made a comment that squids have no tools, That is a Scientific FACT of the known science, can other sqidyy shapes evolve tools on another planet? It is slightly harder to believe, that body shape has been in Nature for several hundred millions years in an aqeous environment, the creatures that have that shape ARE intelligent, but they have no evolutionary imperative or the ability to mianipulate technology in their environment. Water is the universal solvent, it inhabits more than you think

Then you have the variance in radiation. Water is an insulator, held within others, a gaseous atmosphere and an electromagnetic field. The Leviathan would evolve to suit that environment's radioactive state and the planet it evolved on would protect it. Take all those factors away to the extreme and you have deep space


I said in my propsal that Leviathans were uplifted by an "alien" race that they indoctrinated. The Land is as alien to a water based dweller as space is. Since there are more natural contradcitions to the Leviathans being tool users, so the other. land based, animal was technological and tool using. Since it had the ability to uplift and build spaceflight capable beings (Reapers) they also have a form of Extelligence, the ability to share information and store it. Extelligence is books, internet, media.  There are Intelligent Aqueaous lifeforms on Earth, but only one Extelligent one, Humans. To escape an aqeous planet requires the same extelligence resource as mankind built to enter space flight. Squidy shaped, Aqueous creatures of the Leviathans evolved form haven't done that.

So in essence wether the tool user was native to the Leviathan homeplanet's land mass or it came from another planet. It is ALIEN to the Leviathan. 

As I told you before, I was iffy on that. They have long life-spans, and I don't know how big the original population of Leviathan survivors was -- for all we know, these are the last children out of a hundred survivors.

That means that these creatures are billions of years old and have fed, brethed and lived in the same universe as their ultimate enemy which knows their nature intimately. You find that small part hard to believe and begin to question. All I am saying is I question more of their reasoning for inclusion into the franchise.

So, as you can see, there is no "science part" that contridicts their existance either.

As I said before, just look at the Codex -- that's already done with the Reaper's indoctrination -- it's all subsonic waves. The same is likely true for how the Leviathan's communicate: subsonic waves stimulating different parts of the brain.

Sorry Lore is not science and the Codex is a myth statement to support a computer game story. It exists for no other reason. IT IS NOT REAL. I've used REAL science observational perspectives to my creation story, just as a thought exercise and an attempt at explaining away the myth.

1> As I've said many times before, they likely enthralled the other races they shared their world with, just like how the protheans dominated other races on theor own world with their senory abilaties. And as races like the hanar and the volus and the elcor have proven, size and shape don't do anything to detter evolution and advancement -- sooner or later, you evolve. We evolved from the sea to walk on the land. Is it really so improbable that the Leviathans couldn't do the same? Especally with help from the enthralled races that they likely shared their world with? There are many ways they could have gotten started, and none of them impossible or improbible.

2> Like we're any different? All life survives on other lifeforms.
And the idea that there were millions of micro-orginisims on the Leivathan home-world is impossible......how? Just look at whales -- same concept. You'll always find more micro-orginisims on a world then you will full-fledged sapiants. And what the hell are you talking about "in space?" I'm talking about the planet surface and how they colonized other worlds. If you've ment space traval, then the answer's simple -- storage tanks or feeding tubes. Besides, they're the one's the Reapers learned stole the secrets of ME tech from -- they wouldn't need to stay in space all that long. If anything, the Leviathans strike me as a race that would direct things from lofty vantage points on the worlds themselves and leave the bulk of space exploration to the enthralled.

3> Take a good look at them. They survive easily in well past crushing depths. Humans use similar methods to train for space survival. The difference is that the Leviathans evolved theor own natural hard-suit, just like the turians evolved skin-plates to compensate for the higher raidation of their planet's sun.
And again, you're making the mistake of assuming that they spend the bulk of their time in space, or that normal shellfish grow that damn big. Porpotions, pal -- bigger it is and deeper in the see it lives, denser the shell will be to protect the organs. As for your sentance of there being "no truly effective pressure hull," the crabs and shellfish living at the bottom of the ocean floor completely disprove you. And again, I point out the fact that compensating for those limitations is why they built an empire out of enslaved races in the first place -- to do what they couldn'tdo with their physical limitations. The turians did it with the volus. The protheans did it to everyone they met. The Leviathans doing it is so impossible?

Just look at the elcor. They evolved so big because of dense gravity fields. Perhaps the Leviathan homeworld had denser gravity, and combined with evolving from life at crush-depth, they're shells became more durible. Besides, I again pointed out that they created the original ME technology, making that zero gravity concern of yours completely irrlivent -- they can create a mass effect field to negate that sort of issue.

Once again, they created the original ME tech - those fields would take care of those gravity issues. And modern crabs can survive the difference between the cursh-depth of the sea floor and the shallow waters, and can even move over land. And again, who's to say how many generations they took to evolve? Hell, when they became technologically advanced, they might have even done gene minipulation to further compensate for anything that ME fields couldn't do for them.

Read the above -- the Leviathan's were crustatious in origin, and the Reaper's shells are an extension of that. And again, if that's true, what makes the Leviathans coming up onto the land so impossible?

Again, between their thick shells and a rebrether system to give water to their gills or whatever they have, there'd be no problem. The Volus have rebrethers, as do the quarians. Besides, you act like they would spend larg amounts of time out of water anyway. They likely had thralls terraform worlds to suit their needs like the rest of the galaxy does.

I have said that your proposal is likely true in reverse -- the Levithans became intelligent, then absorbed other races into themselves to compensate for their limitations. It's not as impossible as you keep saying it is. The sea is just as alien to us, yet we can go there. The same is true for the Leviathans -- you keep ranting to me that I have a closed mind, yet look at you with what evolution can do depending in the circumstances. It was NOT alien to the Leviathans -- if the volus could evolve to do it, and the hanar could evolve to do it, the Leviathans can as well. Any race can given enough time.

4> It likely took billions of years for them to evolve, just like us -- we have no idea how long their civilization lasted or how long it took to emerge, you forget. And again, it's not impossible -- The Reapers stay hidden from us every single time. The Leviathans do the same as the Reapers -- kill off all trace of their existance. Sure, they probably know the Leviathans are still out there, but can't prove it -- ironically, the same situation we end up in with the Reapers. So, after seeing their creations do it daily, no, I don't have a hard time questioning it.

5> "Sorry" but sicence contridicts you on this.  REAL science is that anything can adapt and evolve given enough time and resources. That's applicable to the Leviathans. I've ALSO used real sicence observational perspectives in what I've said, and found flaws in what you claimed every time.

[silverexile17s]

alleyd wrote...

 Re indoctrination in Infra Sound?
Sorry Sound waves of any form do not exist in a vacuum Infrasound has long wave lengths and needs air particles to be transmitted. Sound is a physical force and an infrasound wave powerful enough to indoctrinate would be felt in other areas of the body. In humans you FEEL infrasound far more acutely than you think

In any case that was a supposition by one scientist, taken from a fossil source and with no observational data of the indoctrination process happening. To make a definitive statement on infra sound indoctrination, would need observation of the process throughout its cycle and evidence to support the hypothesis against challenge. Sound would need a constant transmission source and energy reserves to power it. It would only work when the infrasound device was active and the indoctrinated person was in proximity.

There are other ways that could explain indoctrination in the ME canon with a little imagination and scietific knowledge. Indoctrination is something that alters the brain chemistry of the subject and it operates in many environments, including vacuums. Infrasound CANNOT work in a vacuum and the idea is untested and without observation of the mechanism.

WE saw two forms of forced Reaper processing in the games. In ME1 we saw Reaper inspired Geth use Dragons Teeth to create husks. Nano tech was introduced through an extreme and violent reaction which killed the organic subject, nanides were introduced into the body.

In ME2 we saw Reapers used nanides to process and create themselves. Another violent reaction which killed the organic.

So in 2 Reaper processes to alter Organics use Nanotech, easy to extend the concept to slow term indoctrination by nanides. Instead of a violent force, a more controlled release that has the Organic absorb the nanides through its pores or breath. Its longer term and less violent.

In the supplemantary novels Greyson had implants that fed nanites into his bidy where they beghan to reprocess the organic tissue into more nanotech

How the nanides would work in brain? I suspect they would possibly manipulate the chemical structure, altering amino acids or protein chains. Thinking is more a chemical than electrical process. The protein chains produce these chemicals the power the thought process. Subtle changes to these proteins have been suggested in psychiatric medicine and there have been fatal brain diseases that feature protein abnormalities, drugs DO NOT work and medical treatment would be virtually impossible. You'd have to remove the nanides totally, rebuild the broken tissues and then change the chemistry back.

A very difficult challenge and the person will be forever altered in the process without a lot of space magic. Does that form of medical technology exist in ME? Yes, it's the contentious reanimation of Shepard solves all the medical problems perfectly

If this hypothesis is more "sound" that infrasound (pun intended) There is an irony, Cereberus had the abilities to theoretically treat indoctrination and repair the victim. In doing so they also had the ability to immunise against indoctrination in many ways.

Anyway that is again only an alternative imaging of the MEU. Not a statement of anything canon, 

Dude, have you not heard of a little thing called "Radiowaves?":whistle:
Let me clear something up for you - Indoctrination already DOENS'T occour in dead space. The signal is transmittible via tightbeam to indoctrination devices on the ground which then emmit the signal. Didn't you notice that indoctrination only ever occours on the ground, or inside the artifical atmosphere of the Reaper itself? That's because it needs air to resonate, and thus, you need to be inside atmosphere - which is why Reaper's maintain an internal life support for a crew (Sovergein with Saren, Derelict Reaper with Cerberus team). Object Rho too -- It didn't indoctrinate anyone until it was placed inside an atmosphere. And it's not just infrasonic/ultrasonic fields, there's an electromagnetic field that binds them.
So that "travel through space" thing doesn't even apply here because Indoctrination hasn't ever taken place in dead space, so that's not a flaw because said flaw doesn't exist.
Meaning that thus far, Indoctrination is indeed scientifically accurate.

...Actually, I think you may have just discovered the secret to studying Reaper Tech risk-free - Seal it in a Vacuum!!! The indoc signal can't get you if there's no atmosphere to carry the soundwaves or uphold the electromagnetic field emissions!! G*ddamn, why didn't I think of that before?! Why hasn't anyone else thought of it before?! Cerberus could have avoided the entire mess on the Derilict Reaper by not pressurizing the damn thing!!

So far, we've got all those -- the Reaper indoctrinates with it's own ambiant power from it's core. Reaper indoc boosters have to come online to be a danger. Rana Thanoptos already did a study on it in ME1 and found the corrilation between the signal's source (Sovergein) being a signal that's typically untratible unelss you know how to look. The Codex in ME2 on indoctrination seems to corrilate everything she said.

As said in the ME2 Codex, that's what the signal is:

"Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.

Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind. Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents.

A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resultingchaos can bring down nations.

Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable.Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years."

The primary method is infrasonic and ultrasonic noise coupled with minipulating neural activityin the brain and limbic system with electromatnegic fields. However, I think electromagnetic field suffers from the same problem -- it's needs atmosphere to carry it over distances.

Once again, that's my point -- Indocnrtination's never, ever been witnessed to work outside of an atmosphere, unless you are directly implanted with nanites that pump the signal into the brain matter directly, or just physically re-write the process themselvess. Also, in "Retubition," it's implied they stuck a needle into Grayson's skull and injected the nanites directly into his brain tissue.

And once again, it doesn't matter because Indoctrination has never been witnessed to work in a vacuum outside of people that have been implanted already. Ironicly, you may have stumbled onto a way to reverse-engineer the tech without risk of indoctrination -- just work in a vacuum and the subsonic field can't affect you because there's no atmosphere to carry the signal. If the electromagnetic field is a problem, carry a counterbalance -- a magnet or dampener of some sort.

All this time, I figured that Saren and TIM were proof that working with active Reaper tech would always just bit us in the ass. I never even realized until now that I'd never seen Indoctrination take place in space before. If this line of thought is true, and Reaper tech can really be made safe to study by putting it in a vacuum environment, then the things we could study from the Collector Base or the scattered Reaper artifcats would be.....
God, I need to think this through.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 05 octobre 2013 - 11:50 .