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[jamesthessj4]

I am a bit divided when it comes to this choice at the end of the game. Both sides give plenty or reasons why their side is best. Though as far as the mages go well....there are lots of reasons why one should side with the templars and thats just because of all the crazy blood mages who want to bring back the days when mages ruled over man or they are just plain crazy. The hardest choice of all of course is to kill or spare Anders life for what he does. There could of been peace between the two groups but of course if he had not of done what he did then what would be the main focuse of the next game? If you think about it, Flemeth knew it was going to happen. She hinted at it earlier in the game i think. Any ways back on topic. Do mages deserve true freedom or will said freedom give rise to another tevinter imperium? So in the end im not sure which sides cause is more noble and just and deserves to be defended. 

[dragonflight288]

jamesthessj4 wrote...

I am a bit divided when it comes to this choice at the end of the game. Both sides give plenty or reasons why their side is best. Though as far as the mages go well....there are lots of reasons why one should side with the templars and thats just because of all the crazy blood mages who want to bring back the days when mages ruled over man or they are just plain crazy. The hardest choice of all of course is to kill or spare Anders life for what he does. There could of been peace between the two groups but of course if he had not of done what he did then what would be the main focuse of the next game? If you think about it, Flemeth knew it was going to happen. She hinted at it earlier in the game i think. Any ways back on topic. Do mages deserve true freedom or will said freedom give rise to another tevinter imperium? So in the end im not sure which sides cause is more noble and just and deserves to be defended. 

Happy to give you my opinion on the matter.

Warning: Wall of Text

But first, I will give a full and complete opinion on both sides, including pre-game history. I do this to fully explore both sides, their histories, their ups and their downs, and hopefully provide validation on why I've firmly chosen a side, fully knowing the probabilities and consequences.

I will start with the templars themselves. We know that they were once called the Inquisition and they were formed after the fall of Tevinter to deal with renegade mages and magic, as well as dragon cults that were still pretty predominant in a post-Tevinter world. From the dragonage.wikia, I gathered this information.

he Inquisition was a group of people who, following the First Blight, rose up to defend Thedas from the dangers of magic and heretics. The Inquisition later joined with the Chantry and became the Seekers of Truth and the Templar Order.

****



In the years before the founding of the Chantry and the start of the Divine Age, Thedas was plunged into chaos. The First Blight had ended, the Imperium had broken apart following Andraste's March, and despite the spread of the Maker's teachings, blood mages and Old Gods cults were widespread.[1] The Inquisition was formed around -100 Ancient[2] with the goal of protecting the people from the tyranny of magic in whatever form it might take; blood mages, abominations, cultists or heretics.[3]
A loose association of Andrastian hard-liners, the group combed the
land in search of these threats and some say theirs was a reign of
terror.[4]
Others say they were cast in a negative light by history because their
investigations and even application of justice, protecting both mages
and common people impartially, crossed too many powerful groups. In
these accounts it is suggested that the group was already known as the
Seekers of Truth and that the "Inquisition" moniker was perhaps
pejorative.[5]
In 1:20 Divine, the newly founded Chantry found common cause with the Inquisition and they signed the Nevarran Accord.[6]
As part of the agreement, the Inquisition became the new martial arm
of the Chantry, the Templar Order, and its senior members became known
as the Seekers of Truth. Another result was the creation of the Circle of Magi,[6] with the templars serving as wardens for the Circles.

This information tells us exactly where the templars and seekers came from. They predate the Chantry themselves


This information tells us about the rise of the Circles, but I will get into that later as the creation of the Circle of Magi happened after the creation of the templars and the seekers within the Chantry itself. For now, I will focus on how the templars were used by the Chantry throughout history.

To this end, I will bring up the codex entry, History of the Chantry: Chapter 4.

On the birth of the Chantry
The crowds present at the death of Andraste were right to feel despair. It is believed that the prophet's execution angered the Maker, and He turned His back on humanity once more, leaving the people of Thedas to suffer in the dark.
In these dark times, mankind scrambled for a light, any light.
Some found comfort in demonic cults that promised power and riches in
return for worship. Others prayed to the Old Gods
for forgiveness, begging the great dragons to return to the world.
Still others fell so low as to worship the darkspawn, forming vile cults
dedicated to the exaltation of evil in its purest form. It is said that
the world wept as its people begged for a savior who would not come.
Andraste's followers, however, did not abandon her teachings when
she died. The Cult of Andraste rescued her sacred ashes from the
courtyard in Minrathous
after her execution, stealing them away to a secret temple. The
location of that temple has long been lost, but the ashes of Andraste
served as a symbol of the enduring nature of the faith in the Maker,
that humanity could earn the Maker's forgiveness despite its grievous
insult to Him.
With time, the Cult of Andraste spread and grew, and the Chant of
Light took form. Sing this chant in the four corners of Thedas, it was
said, and the world would gain the Maker's attention at last. As the Chant of Light spread, the Cult of Andraste became known as the Andrastian Chantry. Those who converted to the Chantry's beliefs found it their mission to spread Andraste's word.
There were many converts, including powerful people in the Imperium and in the city-states of what is now Orlais. Such was the power of the Maker's word that the young King Drakon undertook a series of Exalted Marches
meant to unite the city-states and create an empire solely dedicated to
the Maker's will. The Orlesian Empire became the seat of the Chantry's
power, the Grand Cathedral in Val Royeaux the source of the movement
that birthed the organized Chantry as we know it today. Drakon, by then
Emperor Drakon I, created the Circle of Magi, the Order of Templars and the holy office of the Divine. Many within the Chantry revere him nearly as equal with Andraste herself.The modern Chantry is a thing of faith and beauty, but it is also
a house of necessity, protecting Thedas from powerful forces that would
do it harm. Where the Grey Wardens protect the world from the Blights,
the Chantry protects mankind from itself. Most of all, the Chantry
works to earn the Maker's forgiveness, so that one day He will return
and transform the world into the paradise it was always meant to be.
--From Tales of the Destruction of Thedas, by Brother Genitivi, Chantry scholar.

I bolded and underlined the important paragraph to which I draw my conclusions here. From this particular paragraph, we see King Drakon led Orlais from a City-State into an Empire, but he did so through Exalted Marches and the Chantry as a way to spread the Chantry's word, and establish Val Royeaux as the heart of the Chantry.

It's important to note that Drakon chose one of many Andrastian Cults which later became the Chantry themselves. And as Brother Genitivi wrote this, we know it to be reliable, even it it does have a bit of a pro-chantry view as Brother Genitivi is a strong believer. Still reliable.

Now, through these two sources of information, we see the Chantry gaining a military arm, and it was formed at a time when a monarch tried to expand his own power in the name of religion, and just happened to choose one of many Andrastian cults, and he is credited with creating the templars and the Chantry itself as a result.

It is not a stretch to say the templars as an order weren't created to defend, but to conquer. Orlais itself was built through Exalted Marches.

Does this mean the templar order is bad? Heck no. All it means is that as an organization, they have existed before they were brought into the Chantry as a means to hunt mages, cultists, dragon cultists, and were both feared and respected by everyone. Upon joining the Chantry itself, their role didn't change much, but it was now focused and controlled by a single religion and used by a country in a religious war.

Now I shall move into the creation of the Circles, as well as show how the Chantry can be bloodthirsty when they don't get their way, but also show that the templars aren't universal bad guys.

Now, after Tevinter was defeated in southern Thedas, there was a universal fear and hatred of magic because of the enormous political power, as well as magical power, Tevinter enjoyed and abused. Blood magic was universally despised. But you can never truly get rid of all mages. Every day, another was born, and three our four years later, they start discovering their magical sensitivity.

In a conversation with Wynn, we know an untrained mage can set a child's head on fire if their emotions act up, and this is confirmed in the mage origin story where we see an enchanter trying to teach an apprentice how to control fire, but it goes out of control and he sets himself on fire because his emotions weren't steady. Redcliff itself is an absolute disaster, with so many factors and variables at work that no single thing can be truly blamed. But it showcases how dangerous an untrained mage can be, especially if they get targeted by a demon.

The solution is obvious, find a way to train the mages. Unfortunately, that wasn't the first solution the Chantry used. In the Codex Entry, History of the Circle, we see the Chantry relying on magic and mages, but mages were only allowed to be janitors at best.

It is a truth universally acknowledged that nothing is more
successful at inspiring a person to mischief as being told not to do
something. Unfortunately, the Chantry
of the Divine Age had some trouble with obvious truths. Although it did
not outlaw magic-quite the contrary, as the Chantry relied upon magic
to kindle the eternal flame which burns in every brazier in every
chantry-it relegated mages to lighting candles and lamps. Perhaps
occasional dusting of rafters and eaves.
I will give my readers a moment to contemplate how well such a role satisfied the mages of the time.
It surprised absolutely no one when the mages of Val Royeaux,
in protest, snuffed the sacred flames of the cathedral and barricaded
themselves inside the choir loft. No one, that is, but Divine Ambrosia
II, who was outraged and attempted to order an Exalted March upon her own cathedral. Even her most devout Templars
discouraged that idea. For 21 days, the fires remained unlit while
negotiations were conducted, legend tells us, by shouting back and forth
from the loft.
The mages went cheerily into exile in a remote fortress outside
of the capital, where they would be kept under the watchful eye of the
Templars and a council of their own elder magi. Outside of normal
society, and outside of the Chantry, the mages would form their own
closed society, the Circle, separated for the first time in human history.
--From Of Fires, Circles, and Templars: A History of Magic in the Chantry, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar.

In this codex entry, written by Sister Petrine, a Chantry Scholar we meet in origins who favored the truth over false relics and hope, and her beliefs were considered heretical by the Chantry, this too can be taken at face value.

In this, we see that the mages were pretty much glorified janitors, and when they staged a peaceful protest, the Divine tried to call an Exalted March on her own cathedral, essentially slaughter all the mages for daring to go against her wishes, and it was a templar who talked her down.

The Circle was formed to give the mages a place to freely study magic, so long as they kept themselves apart from the rest of society, and would be under the watchful eye of templars and a council of their own elder magi.

I will pause here for a moment, and repeat what I just said, as taken from the codex by a chantry scholar. The Circle was formed to allow the mages to freely study magic under the watchful eye of both mages and templars.

At this point in history, the Rite of Annulment doesn't even exist, and I'm not entirely certain if Tranquility existed as a form of punishment either. A council of mages and the templars were keepers together.

David Gaider confirmed that these Circles didn't spring up at once. They were formed slowly after the compromise, as the chantry grew in influence. They rounded up mages and put them into the Circles until there were fourteen total throughout Thedas.

So from here, we see that the Circles themselves gave mages a place to train their powers, study and practice their spells so that they could control themselves. But when we discuss mages, the dangers aren't completely inherent in miscast spells or misplaced good-intentions. Nope. There's also the threat of blood magic and abominations.

Before discussing abominations, I shall get into blood magic itself. Now blood magic is a thead in and of itself on its good or evil nature, so I shall gloss over the basics and focus on potential danger and helpfulness, and what makes a mage a maleficar.

As for blood magic itself, I look at Blood Magic: The Forbideen School codex.

Foul and corrupt are you

Who have taken My gift

And turned it against My children.

--Transfigurations 18:10.


The ancient Tevinters did not originally consider blood magic
a school of its own. Rather, they saw it as a means to achieve greater
power in any school of magic. The name, of course, refers to the fact
that magic of this type uses life, specifically in the form of blood, instead of mana. It was common practice, at one time, for a magister to keep a number of slaves
on hand so that, should he undertake the working of a spell that was
physically beyond his abilities, he could use the blood of his slaves to
bolster the casting.
Over time, however, the Imperium discovered types of spells that could only be worked by blood. Although lyrium will allow a mage to send his conscious mind into the Fade,
blood would allow him to find the sleeping minds of others, view their
dreams, and even influence or dominate their thoughts. Just as
treacherous, blood magic allows the Veil to be opened completely so that demons may physically pass through it into our world.
The rise of the Chant of Light
and the subsequent fall of the old Imperium has led to blood magic
being all but stamped out-as it should be, for it poses nearly as great a
danger to those who would practice it as to the world at large.
--From The Four Schools: A Treatise, by First Enchanter Josephus.

In the second to last paragraph, it talks about the shedding of blood and how it can be used to open the veil and allow demons through, and this is true, but it's not necessarily restricted to blood magic itself. I will get to that later.

But when it comes to blood magic itself, two real dangers come to mind. Demons, and mind-control. People don't fear blood boiling in their skin any more than they fear a fireball hitting them in the face, or being frozen in ice and then shattered by a stone fist, but the threat of a demon and mind control itself terrifies people out of their pants. There is also the stigma attached to blood magic as a result of the Tevinters frequently using their slaves as a source of power when their own magics were short.

But magic powered by life-force is not the only thing called blood magic by the Chantry. In fact, they actually have forbidden anatomical studies for medicine as it has blood involved, and declared anything involving blood to be blood magic.

Finn says using Dalish Blood in Witch Hunt DLC is a grey area in the chantry because blood isn't powering the spell but is only a component. This is ironic because blood is taken from every apprentice upon entering the tower, and is made their phylactery. Using the mages blood (and Evangeline in Asunder pretty much said that the phylacteries are a form of blood magic) they can track down mages. Which means the Chantry is using blood magic themselves, when it's convenient and empowers them.

Now for the dangers, starting with mind control.

Mind control itself can be fought. Wynn talks about how the Litany of Adralla was written by a bard as a way to fight the mind-domination of blood mages, but this is centuries after the Litany was written. However, we know through codex entries and words from the developers, that Adralla wasn't a bard at all, but was actually a Tevinter magister.

Codex: Litany of Adralla

Adralla of Vyrantium dedicated her life to the study of blood magic—the academic study, rather than the practice. A deeply pious mage, she was renowned in her day for having found a counter to every form of mind control, a defense against dream walkers, and even counter-spells to demonic summons.
Her efforts went unappreciated in her native Tevinter, however. After three different magisters attempted to have her killed, she fled the country, choosing to take refuge in the land of Blessed Andraste's birth. She spent the remainder of her days with the Circle in Ferelden.
The Litany of Adralla
disrupts the casting of mind control spells. Use the Litany whenever a
creature tries to dominate another with magic, and it will interrupt the
casting. Once the spell is in effect and a character is under a blood
mage's power, it is too late.

The fact that Wynn, a mage who grew up in the Circle itself, believing that Adralla was a bard, shows that somewhere down the line, the information was changed or altered so people wouldn't believe that the Chantry used blood magic and accepted a magister to help them. Or Wynn was lying to the Warden. Possible, but highly unlikely.

Now throught he Litany, we know that the mind-control can be fought against, and we know from DA2, that it can be resisted without the litany, (although I think Bethany uses it to free a non-mage Hawke of its influence.) I don't understand why this spell isn't taught to all mages in the circle because that's exactly how Wynn describes it, "it's just a spell."

As for demons themselves, I will again ask for your patience as I will get to them later from a non-mage perspective. We know the veil is weakened when blood is flowing, and blood magic certainly accomplishes that when used in large amounts over a short period of time, and I already pointed out Redcliff and the tragedy that happened there, and that speaks for itself. I will show later that mages aren't the only ones who can tear the veil and thus allow demons into the world.

Now the Chantry has declared all blood mages to be maleficar. But that begs the question, exactly what is a maleficar?

Codex Entry: Maleficarum

It has been asked, "What are maleficarum? How shall we know them?" I have been asked by this question as you. You have come to me for the wisdom of the Maker, but none have seen the Maker's heart save Beloved Andraste.
And so I have done as all mortals must, and looked to the words of His
prophet for answers. And there, I found respite from a troubled mind.
For she has said to us, "Magic exists to serve man, and never to
rule over him." Therefore, I say to you, they who work magic which
dominates the minds and hearts of others, they have transgressed the
Makers law.
Also, Our Lady said to us, "Those who bring harm without
provocation to the least of His children are hated and accursed by the
Maker." And so it is made clear to me, as it should be to us all: That
magic which fuels itself by harming others, by the letting of blood, is hated by the Maker.
Those mages
who honor the Maker and keep his laws we welcome as our brothers and
sisters. Those who reject the laws of the Maker and the words of His
prophet are apostate. They shall be cast out, and given no place among us.
--From The Sermons of Justinia I.

Now this codex entry comes from a Divine, not a scholar, so I'll put it under a bit more scrutiny...also because I never met the Divine but I have met Genitivi and Petrine.

She went to the Chant of Light for inspiration on what a maleficar is and applied it specifically to mages.

The famous and much used line "Magic exists to serve man and never rule over him," is used to the effect of "don't control the minds of others, or force people to do what you want."

That is a fair point, and perfectly reasonable.

It's the next line she quotes and interprets, however, that makes me cringe at her reading comprehension. "Those who bring harm without
provocation to the least of His children are hated and accursed by the
Maker." And so it is made clear to me, as it should be to us all: That
magic which fuels itself by harming others, by the letting of blood, is hated by the Maker."

I have only one thing to say here.  And that is......

Those who bring harm without provocation to the least of His children are hted and accursed by the Maker.....that line does not mention magic at all, nor does it talk about fueling spells by blood magic at all. In fact, this line is perfectly applicable to non-mages as well as to mages. Don't hurt others without provocation. That means it's perfectly reasonable to fight in self-defense. According to this, if I were a mage and thew a fire ball or a spirt bolt at someone without using any blood magic at all, I would be accursed by the Maker. There is no mention of blood magic at all in this line of the Chant of Light. Her saying this is her inferring her own interpretation and beliefs into the words of Andraste.

And this isn't the first time Such inferrence, or even editing of the Chant itself, happens in the chantry. If you play as an elf, and go to Denerim, you can ask if there are any mentions of elves in the Chant. You will find that the Canticle of Shartan was removed from the Chant of Light itself when the Dales were conquered by Orlais (with the Chantry's aid, I might add.) And it was the Chantry itself that ordered elves to convert as well as force them into the alienages as well, after the war. In Awakening, the Canticle of Shartan is discovered to have never been put into the Chant by Drakon and the Chantry. This shows that the Chantry can and does pick and choose what it believes when it comes to the Chant, and interpret it to their own beliefs, rather than what it actually says.

We also know that maleficars have been declared by the Chantry, even if those mages in question don't actually practice blood magic, but a school of magic not actively practiced by the Circles (which uses chantry approved schools.) Wynn calls Morrigan a maleficar, and Morrigan may not even be a blood mage if we didn't turn her into one. She's a shapeshifter.

Also, from the wiki, we have this on maleficarum as well.

Apostates are not by definition maleficarum, but many are. Bucking the authority of the Circle of Magi
usually leads a mage into exploring the forbidden, especially if they
feel they need such power to stay alive. This is common enough that many
templars will simply assume that any apostate is also a maleficar, or
close enough to becoming one that it makes no difference.
Apostates who practice magical arts not well known among Circles, such as Morrigan's shapeshifting,
are sometimes referred to as maleficarum. This distinction is not exact
and is usually born from the common ignorance and prejudice to
associate all unique forms of magic with blood magic.

Not every apostate is a blood mage, but they are most certainly treated like them by the Chantry.

To sum up, mages are dangerous by their very nature. If untrained, they can be tempted by demons and unleash other-worldy horrors. If they are dealing with a bully, that bully may find himself on fre by complete accident, and an untrained mage is as much a danger to himself as he is to others. Blood mages are especially dangerous because of their ability to influence the minds of others as well as possibly summon demons.

This means that education and training is an absolute necessity.

Now you may have noticed that I didn't sum up the dangers of the templar order and the seekers. That's because at this point in time, there is no real danger beyond hearsay and reputation of a highly tulmutuous time period. It's when things got stable in history, and the templars settled in as overseers of the mages, and got used to it, that the real danger and corruption began to fester.

It began, in my opinion, by giving the templars and the Chantry itself, the right to commit genocide against Circles full of mages. The Rite of Annulment.

Codex Entry: The Right of Annulment

In the 83rd year of the Glory Age, one of the mages of the Nevarran Circle was found practicing forbidden magic. The Templars
executed him swiftly, but this brewed discontent among the Nevarra
Circle. The mages mounted several magical attacks against the templars,
vengeance for the executed mage, but the knight-commander was unable to
track down which were responsible.
Three months later, the mages summoned a demon
and turned it loose against their templar watchers. Demons, however,
are not easily controlled. After killing the first wave of templars who
tried to contain it, the demon took possession of one of its summoners.
The resulting abomination slaughtered templars and mages both before escaping into the countryside.
The Grand Cleric
sent a legion of templars to hunt the fugitive. They killed the
abomination a year later, but by that time it had slain 70 people.
Divine Galatea, responding to the catastrophe in Nevarra and
hoping to prevent further incidents, granted all the grand clerics of
the Chantry the power to purge a Circle entirely if they rule it irredeemable. This Right of Annulment has been performed 17 times in the last 700 years.
—From Of Fires, Circles, and Templars: A History of Magic in the Chantry, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar

700 years divided by 17 Annulments is 41.176471. If my math is correct, that means since the Right was first made, just under half of all circles were completely destroyed in that same time period. Suddenly, by giving the power to decide if a circle is irredeemabe to the Chantry's Grand Cleric of the region, the council of mages made to oversee mages when the Circles were first created now suddenly have no real power. If a Grand Cleric decideds the Circle deserves Annulment, then every man, woman and child will now be slaughtered.

Then we have the Rite of Tranquility itself. It is used as a cop out for apprentices who fear the Harrowing, where they have no idea what they will face or what will happen. All they know is that many apprentices never return and aren't seen again, and that the Enchanters won't speak of it. It is also forced upon apprentices who are considered weak or dangerous.

Now the Harrowing (I digress here) is kept secret, and apprentices are sent into the Fade to face a demon, when at their weakest and are completely unprepared because...they don't know what they're doing when they're brought into their harrowing. If they take too long, the templars kill them. If they fail, they become an abomination and will be killed anyway. That kind of pressure is bound to have a ratio of more failure to successes simply because they bring apprentices in without really preparing them to face a demon, and the apprentice in question doesn't know they're facing a demon until they are thrust into the Harrowing. This would be absolutely terrifying. And a mage who is panicking and isn't in control of their emotions, will be far less likely to be in control of their powers, as shown in the mage origin.

Back to tranquility.

Mages are absolutely terrified of being made tranquil. Any non-mage would be too. Having all their emotions severed essentially extinguishes their humanity and what makes them, them. Love, hate, anger, sorrow, joy, fear, contentment, peace, anguish are all parts of living. It may not be pleasant but take them away, and you are essentally an artfully made automoton. Heck, the droids in Star Wars, despite being machines, have more emotions than the tranquil.

Mages have been forced into a position because they gave the Chantry all the power over them when the Circles were first formed, even if it took time, where they can practice magic freely, but only to a limited extent, and they must face a demon unprepard, lose their emotions, or die. That's all an apprentice has to look forward to.

I'll give you a moment, much like the History of the Circle Codex did, to reflect on how much of a deal the mages have in the current system.

.....
........

That should be long enough.

So we note that the Chantry and the templars themselves have power over the mages, even the power of life and death and it can be done at a whim. They have the power to sever the emotions of the mages. And this brings us to DA2, and the templars in Kirkwall, DA Origins (including DLC) and how mages and templars get along there as well.

In Awakening, Ser Rylon ignores the King (or Queen) of Ferelden and completely ignores the Wardens right of conscription, and tries to take Anders illegally, saying outright that her rights as a templar supercede those of the Wardens AND the crown. In other words, she said that as a templar, she has more authority and power than the King of the country she lives in by virtue of.....being a templar.

The templars have obviously become accustomed to the power over mages that they have, and have developed an deeply, and false belief in their authority over mages. Cullen says that Elthina will have to support the templars because "they have authority over mages by divine right." That's not in the Chant of Light, and that's not what the original compromise was when the Circle was first formed.

Again, it was mages studying magic freely, under the eyes of the templars AND a council of enchanters. That is no longer the case by the time of Dragon Age Origins. As such, the templars and the chantry have no divine right over mages at all, when looked at through the lens of history.

In DA2, Meredith was playing politics in Kirkwall. When Hawke first arrives, the City Guard (not a templar) says Meredith ordered the refugees to be sorted out, and also says that she's the power in Kirkwall. We have multiple examples of templars completely abusing their authority. Ser Thrask says Ser Kerras would consider the fact that the apostates from Starkhaven, having not surrendered to Thrask upon arrival, would be put to death and that Meredith would call it justified.

On a side note, I played as a mage Hawke and had Varic lie to Kerras, saying I was an Enchanter from another Circle sent to help out the templars, and Kerras tune changed completely, into one of respect and saying that it's not often mages help templars....so there's some food for thought.

If we fight Kerras as a female, he implies quite heavily that he planned to rape Hawke. In Act 3, if Kerras lives, Alain says that Kerras comes into his room at night an threatened him to stay quiet, so we know Kerras is a rapist. We also have Alrik illegally tranquilizing mages (which needs authority from both the Knight Commander and the First Enchanter) and then turning them into sex slaves. It's implied in the scene with Ela, and in the Gallows we see a mage go up to his girlfriend, finds out she's been made tranquil, and she says openly that she belongs to Alrik now.

In Act 3, Meredith had pretty much seized the Viscount's throne, is not allowing the city to run itself, if you play pro-mage you will see Meredith had createda death squad made entirely of templars, who are going about killing non-mage citizens who are family members or mage supporters. Cullen's codex entry says he was made Knight-Captain because he shared similar views as Meredith. Ser Kerras, Ser Mettin, Ser Alrik and Cullen all shared her views, and they were all very high ranking templars, compared to Ser Thrask, Kerran and others.

Also in Act 3, if you walk among the dalish, you can hear them say the templars have been coming up and pretty much saying convert or die.

And when Anders blows up the Chantry, she has the guilty party right in front of her. Her first order of business is ordering a Right of Annulment (and Kerras, if alive, says she was trying to go over Elthina's head to get it for some time now) and her only justification for ordering it is "the people will demand blood." That is the only reason she gives to the Champion of Kirkwall to support her. She doesn't talk about blood mages, she doesn't talk about corruption in the circle, she doesn't talk about possible blood mages after Thrask's rebellion. She only says that the people will demand blood.

Her job is to protect mages from the world as well as protect the world from mages, if a mob formed and demanded blood, her job description would require her to protect the mages from the mob. Not kill them all to the last child.

The Circle isn't guilty of the crime Anders' committed, she has the guilty party right in front of her, and her declaring the Right of Annulment is only legal on the most bare-bone of technicalities because the Grand Cleric was now dead, and her reasons are...flimsy.

Jump ahead, to the Circle in Rivain. After the events of DA2, the Circle in Rivain is also Annulled. And it's annulled for the dumbest of reasons, and this can be found in World of Thedas.

They are slaughtered whole-sale because the seers of the rivaini kept in contact with their families. That is the only reason. Not because of corruption or because of blood magic. Heck, the Grand Cleric, who was very much alive, didn't even order it. It was the Seekers.

And on the subject of Rivain, having now shown that the Chantry will be willing to commit genocide on a Circle because some mages are communicating and meeting family members, we finally come to how magic isn't even needed to sunder the veil and bring demons into the world. And this was done, thanks to the Chantry, and it also happened in Rivain.

After the Llmarron Accords were signed after a war with the Qunari, the qunari were required to pack up and leave for the islands. But Qunari aren't a race, but a belief. Humans and Elves who follow the Qun are just as much Qunari as the Kossith like Sten and the Arishok. And the men/elves who converted refused to leave their homes. As a result, the Chantry declared and Exalted March and slaughtered them.

This slaughter, happened so fast and there was so much of it, that the veil was actually sundered, and demons began entering the world. After killing them all, the Chantry left the area....and then denied the attack.

To sum up the Chantry and the templars here, they now have gained an arrogance when it comes to their right to rule over mages that even the grunts feel like they have more authority than a king (Grand Cleric in Denerim scolds Loghain saying interfering with a templar is a crime against the Maker....I would love to see her point that out in the Chant of Light.) They have been involved with politics from their very inception, and we see a complete abuse of that power in the form of Meredith in Kirkwall, and the chantry declaring Rights of Annulment for flimsy and completely unnecessary reasons, like in Kirwall and Rivain. They were formed initially to help Orlais conquer everyone else, and are not above genocide, multiple times.

Heck, they were nearly kicked out of Ferelden entirely by Maric and Loghain because they were seen as an Orlesian organization before a religious one.

So for me, at the end of a very, VERY long post, I think my answer is clear.

Mages are very dangerous by their very nature of their magic. They must require training and it is absolutely essential that they build a strong emotional foundation.

But I see far more corruption in the templars and the Chantry at an institutional level, as evolved throughout history, and because the Chantry has spread so far throughout the world, that same corruption and arrogance now permeates and enhances the tension between mage and templar. I have absolutely no trust of the Chantry as an organization because of their close ties to Orlais, and I doubt that they actually practice what they preach.

With mages, you can take them individually, and judge them on those merits. Some will have to be locked up for mandatory training, and some will have to be killed, simply because a mage can be so dangerous. But I think we should only punish mages who are actually guilty of a crime rather than blame them all and paint them with the same brush because of Tevinter's reputation and the religious dogma of a Chantry that rose in prominance simply because they helped a country conquer everyone.

With templars, as a military order, you have to take into account the chains in command and hold commanding officers accountable for their underlings, and hold them accountable if they are unwilling to hold their inferiors accountable as well.

I see far more blame on the templars and the Chantry, and I side with the mages.

[jamesthessj4]

 After reading that very long and very detailed post, I can see that the templars as an organization can be very corrupt. I rarely play as a mage as i like being able to pick lock and fight with a sword. Every time when i play in origins I try to save as many mages as i can durning the cirlce quest. Id rather have an army of mages to help fight the dark spawn then an army of templars.

There is one thing that I would like to know your opinion on. What is going to stop the rise of another tevinter imperium? Also if the chant of light is to believed and with what was said during the dlc for DA2, the magisters where responsible for the creation of the darkspawn. The tevinter imperium is a nation ruled by mages who own slaves. They even enslave their fellow mages. According to Fenris every magister who wishes to have power uses blood magic and is not above sacrificing slaves in order to impress friends or those in power. When you look at the tevinter imperium and what mages as a society can do well you can understand why the common non mage would be terrified of mages. When I do side with the templars at the end of DA2 i try as always to spare mages when possible. It just with version of hawke i just get so pissed off at mages because it seems that here I am trying to help mages out and another crazy mage tries to kill me. A group of mages takes hawkes sister/brother hostage and then decides its better to kill them and hawke instead of trying to make peace. Though taking a step back and looking at it logically I think that there is a reason for all the insane mages in kirkwall. I think it has something to do with the viel being weaker there because the mages that once ruled there where thinning it on purpose and to fact that a dark spawn or as we are led to believe a ancient tevinter magister who was tainted after entering the golden city affected the area despite being alseep and imprisoned in the earth by the grey wardens. 

Perhaps the solution should be that the circle be recreated in a new form that does not allow the templars such direct control? The real question is where do you draw the line between protecting the world from the dangers of magic and how easily it can be abused or being a corrupt dictator who can on a whim kill and entire circle of magi and even their family. 

[Ieldra]

@dragonflight288:
Thank you for this very comprehensive write-up. I'll keep this subscribed.

@jamesthessj4:
The culture of the Tevinter Imperium has included slavery for two thousand years. The problem isn't primarily magic, it's primarily culture. Can you imagine such a culture to arise in a place like Ferelden? There will always be people - mages and others - who abuse their power, but unless the culture supports it, people will aim to punish this on a case-by-case basis. Tevinter magisters and Orlesian nobles have similar privileges in that regard in that their abuses go largely unpunished. Blood magic may make a magister harder to remove than a mundane nobleman, but in both cases it's privilege granted by culture and the political system.

[dragonflight288]

jamesthessj4 wrote...

 After reading that very long and very detailed post, I can see that the templars as an organization can be very corrupt. I rarely play as a mage as i like being able to pick lock and fight with a sword. Every time when i play in origins I try to save as many mages as i can durning the cirlce quest. Id rather have an army of mages to help fight the dark spawn then an army of templars.

Yeah, that post took me two hours to write, track down the sources, and everything.

There is one thing that I would like to know your opinion on. What is going to stop the rise of another tevinter imperium?

Well, the fact that all the nations south of Tevinter have evolved over 1000 years. They are now a completely different culture with a completely different outlook on magic than Tevinter has.

Even when Tevinter surrenedered and became Andrastian, it was done on their terms. They interpreted the Chant of Light differently than the White Chantry did (they are called the Black Chantry.) 

The mages are also highly divided in their own politics, as we see from the Fraternities. The Loyalists are one of the more powerful ones, and they are die-hard Andrastian/Chantry apologists.

As the mages have declared their Independence, the thing that would keep them from becoming another Tevinter is keep them from claiming political power as a group. Tevinter is all about magical talent. Every other nation is completely against and afraid of magic. If the mages live free, those nations would only become Tevinter 2.0 is keep them, as a Circle or as a whole, from gaining political power. And if they do, they need to have some very close watchers with templar like abilities, but without the baggage the current batch of templars/seekers possess.

And there are societies in Thedas that prove that mages living free don't autimatically mean New Tevinter. The Dalish have mages living side-by-side with non-mages, and while led by a Keeper, it isn't a mageocracy. If you play as a Dalish warden, as you talk to people you learn that your parents were forbidden by the elders to bond/elope, and your father was a Keeper. They had to sneak off to marry. If a Keeper had all the power like the Tevinters do, they wouldn't need to do that.

There's also the Rivaini Seers. Mages who willinly allow themselves to be possessed by spirits of the Fade, and are highly regarded by the Rivaini for their wisdom and as spiritual advisors. In fact, this practice was so popular that when the Chantry tried locking up the Seers, the non-mages resisted the Chantry so completely, that the Circle there was more of a showcase, showing they are Andrastian but were unique in that the common man wasn't afraid of mages and magic.

There are no guarantees I can offer you since I don't know how the development team in Inquisition will take the story, but there are possible safe-guards, and I believe a system of checks and balances would be the best bet.

Also if the chant of light is to believed and with what was said during the dlc for DA2, the magisters where responsible for the creation of the darkspawn.

That point is still kind of up for debate. Corypheus discusses how the City was already black upon arrival and it wsa supposed to be Golden. The Chant of Light teaches that it turned black after they entered.

As for the creation of Darkspawn, that is also up for debate. The dwarven codexes, well, if you play as a dwarf, talk about how the darkspawn didn't come from the surface but they came from beneath. And they faced the genlocks in the beginning, and gradually other types of darkspawn came into being. Genlocks are darkspawn that come from a dwarf made brood-mother, hurlocks come from humans, shrieks come from elves, and Ogres from Kossith.

In DA2, when you get the Idol from the primordial thaig, it gives off a song, music that you hear when you undergo the Joining in Origins, but also you hear that same music when you undergo the Reaver ritual in Haven. I don't think that music is a coincidence, as the Awakened Darkspawn talk of the song they hear, Bartrand wanted to hear the song again, Varic heard a song in act 3, and we most definitely hear a song when we become Reavers.

The only thing all of these things have had in common? Dragons.

It's possible that the Old Gods tricked the Magisters into becoming darkspawn because they were dragons. It's possible that the darkspawn were created by the dwarves of the primeval thaig in experiments. That is possible because lyrium is nothing more than concentrated magic as an ore, and dwarves are adept at using it. It's possible the dwarves created the darkspawn, and the magisters became the first awakened darkspawn.

There's enough evidence to go either way here, so I can't say for sure without more evidence.

The tevinter imperium is a nation ruled by mages who own slaves. They even enslave their fellow mages. According to Fenris every magister who wishes to have power uses blood magic and is not above sacrificing slaves in order to impress friends or those in power. When you look at the tevinter imperium and what mages as a society can do well you can understand why the common non mage would be terrified of mages.

Except among the Dalish, among the Rivaini, and the Andrastian Cult at Haven. In fact, most societies that aren't Andrastian don't fear magic (Qunari most definitely hate and fear magic.)

When I do side with the templars at the end of DA2 i try as always to spare mages when possible.

Did you know David Gaider said that any mages spared during a Right of Annulment aren't allowed to really live? They are made tranquil.

It just with version of hawke i just get so pissed off at mages because it seems that here I am trying to help mages out and another crazy mage tries to kill me. A group of mages takes hawkes sister/brother hostage and then decides its better to kill them and hawke instead of trying to make peace.

And that makes sense. But also take into account (I'm not defending them, merely offering you another perspective) that these mages were forced into a situation they didn't want to be in. None of them were even involved with the crime that they were being put to death for. They were desperate, and desperate people do desperate things.

I don't know about Thedas, but people in real life have been aquitted of crimes like murder for reasons like temporary insanity because their minds were not their own, and they aren't thinking straight and do crazy things. (I recommend watching the movie "The Burning Bed", it's about the real life story of the first woman found not-guilty of murdering her husband.)

Though taking a step back and looking at it logically I think that there is a reason for all the insane mages in kirkwall. I think it has something to do with the viel being weaker there because the mages that once ruled there where thinning it on purpose and to fact that a dark spawn or as we are led to believe a ancient tevinter magister who was tainted after entering the golden city affected the area despite being alseep and imprisoned in the earth by the grey wardens.

And that is discussed in the codex entry series, "The Enigma of Kirkwall." The Tevinter Magisters intentionally weakened the veil there as an experiment to make it paper-thin and easy for demons to come through, or influence mages.

Perhaps the solution should be that the circle be recreated in a new form that does not allow the templars such direct control? The real question is where do you draw the line between protecting the world from the dangers of magic and how easily it can be abused or being a corrupt dictator who can on a whim kill and entire circle of magi and even their family. 

It's quite the dilemma. On the one hand, I don't trust the mages to watch themselves, otherwise you will inevitably have corruption and quite easily another Tevinter. On the other hand, I don't trust the templars or the Chantry because of their long history of abusing said power.

[dragonflight288]

Happy to help. I had fun writing it.

EDIT: I noticed a flaw in my essay there. I said in Awakening, you see Shartan's Canticle wasn't ever included, but I'm wrong. It was in there until the Dales were conquered.

We see the Canticle of Mafarath was never included.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 02 août 2013 - 07:32 .

[jamesthessj4]

 It is a diffulct decision on how to handle the situation. So in the end as far as the darkspawn are concerned, their origin and how they came to be is a mystery. I find this history of the old gods and the fade to be interesting. So the old gods are dragons from all intense and purposes. How did the old gods come to be and are they just really powerful and old high dragons or something else that just has the form of a dragon? They supposedly taught men magics. Also even non mages can use a form of blood magic in the form of the Reaver class since to become a reaver you drink the blood of a dragon or some thing similar. I know that there are good spirits and such since we have faith healers that prove that spirits from the fade can inhabit the bodys of mortals and not create abominations. You just have to look at Wynn. Plus i am always leery of religions that claim it is their right to spread to the four corners of the world, which would mean they have to be the only religion in the world.

Looks like I am veering off into another direction but I have always wondered about the fade and this maker that the chantry talks about as well and his relation to the old gods and imprisioning them underground. Does the maker exist and was the black city always black and if so why does the chanty say it was a golden city? Was that because of the old gods tricking man kind into believing in a golden city that they could go to to gain the power of the gods themself? Can this black city be reached in the fade? It is said to be the one constant thing in the fade. I have always looked at it and said to myself, I want to go there. Why you ask? I want to see this place that supposedly birthed the darkspawn just to see if there is any answers there on how they where created and a way to either kill them or create a cure for the darkspawn taint. Another thing though is I wonder if we are going to be seeing dwarf mages since it has been prooven that dwarfs can enter the fade, in Origins and such if you are playing a dwarf. You can even bring varric into the fade during DA2. Is it because of the lyrium in the earth that dwarfs who live underground do not go to the fade when they dream. The fade is after all the world of dreams and spirits. So only mages who enter the fade in a waking state as vunerable to demons. I wonder why that is the case since demons can inhabit non mages as well. I wonder if it is the fault of man for there being demons in the first place since they are only coping one aspect our emotions. So before humanity there must of been no distinction between these spirits then. That is something to ponder about.

[MisterJB]

I think this thread needs a bit of a Templar perspective

dragonflight288 wrote...
Well, the fact that all the nations south of Tevinter have evolved over 1000 years. They are now a completely different culture with a completely different outlook on magic than Tevinter has.

Even when Tevinter surrenedered and became Andrastian, it was done on their terms. They interpreted the Chant of Light differently than the White Chantry did (they are called the Black Chantry.) 

The mages are also highly divided in their own politics, as we see from the Fraternities. The Loyalists are one of the more powerful ones, and they are die-hard Andrastian/Chantry apologists.

As the mages have declared their Independence, the thing that would keep them from becoming another Tevinter is keep them from claiming political power as a group. Tevinter is all about magical talent. Every other nation is completely against and afraid of magic. If the mages live free, those nations would only become Tevinter 2.0 is keep them, as a Circle or as a whole, from gaining political power. And if they do, they need to have some very close watchers with templar like abilities, but without the baggage the current batch of templars/seekers possess.

And there are societies in Thedas that prove that mages living free don't autimatically mean New Tevinter. The Dalish have mages living side-by-side with non-mages, and while led by a Keeper, it isn't a mageocracy. If you play as a Dalish warden, as you talk to people you learn that your parents were forbidden by the elders to bond/elope, and your father was a Keeper. They had to sneak off to marry. If a Keeper had all the power like the Tevinters do, they wouldn't need to do that.

There's also the Rivaini Seers. Mages who willinly allow themselves to be possessed by spirits of the Fade, and are highly regarded by the Rivaini for their wisdom and as spiritual advisors. In fact, this practice was so popular that when the Chantry tried locking up the Seers, the non-mages resisted the Chantry so completely, that the Circle there was more of a showcase, showing they are Andrastian but were unique in that the common man wasn't afraid of mages and magic.

There are no guarantees I can offer you since I don't know how the development team in Inquisition will take the story, but there are possible safe-guards, and I believe a system of checks and balances would be the best bet.

To claim that the Dalish or Rivain are not a magocracy is incorrect. We've seen from DA2 that while non-mages may hold positions that carry some authority within the clan, they have no real power since when a true crysis hit; such as with Marethari keeping the clan in the same place for seven years; there was nothing anyone in the Clan could do beyond bringing their concerns to the Keeper who could and did refuse their pleas out of nothing but her own feelings over "abandoning" Merril. It got to the point where even the master Crafter; who is often presented by Pro-Mages as evidence of how non-mages hold power in dalish clans; just packed up and left.
All Keepers must be mages and who chooses the First? The Keeper out of any criteria s/he deems sufficient.

Therefore, we can say that the dalish clan are not only a magocracy but they are also an authoritarian state where mages and only mages hold any real power.
The example that you mention of a Keeper having to sneak off to marry does not work because the elders that forbade the wedding did not belong to the clan of said Keeper. Meaning, that while he may not have had authority over them doesn't mean their own Keeper didn't.

We don't know nearly as much about Rivain but we do know that Seers hold leadership positions in the country; World of Thedas page 80.

And then, there are the Chasind who are said to be ruled by shamans who are said to have taught magic by Flemeth: meaning, mages.

These are three non-Andrastian cultures who have accepted magic and yet, what has the result been? Mages dominating society. The fact that the non-mages of these cultures seems to have mostly accepted thse conditions doesn't mean they are good, only that these people have been indocrinated from birth.
After all, do you believe these mages rulers are interested in expanding upon the dangers of magic?

It is true that Andrastian cultures have evolved over time to be less accepting of political positions that would place mages over non-mages but only someone extremely naive (I'm not saying you are) could believe this means mages could not exert power over their politics in due time.
After all, Western Society has also (de)evolved from a time where monarchies and the Church held power to one where corporations now rule the world.

Now, in Thedas where industry is extremely limited, who has the better chance to dominate the market? The mages; who can make things appear from thin-air; or the non-mages; who can't?
The answer should be clear. Magic is an advantage that will be used to benefit mages and, at the end of the day, mages will be the ones dominating all forms of industry.
Money is power and through money, mages will be in a good position to influence the politics of Andrastian cultures. Therefore, while I don't expect to see a mage sitting in the orlesian throne anytime soon, a magical corporation holding the power from behind the scenes is a much more plausible fear.

Therefore, what prevents the rise of another Tevinter? The Circle system. If mages are freed, they will use their superior abilities to dominate society more or less covertly.

I'll probrably write something about the conditions of the Circle later.

Modifié par MisterJB, 02 août 2013 - 04:23 .

[Lord Raijin]

In my RL interpretation I think the Chantry is a dangerous religious organization that has too much power than they should have. Grand Clerics has the delegations to arrest and imprison a ruler (Viscount from Kirkwall) from a city if they poses a risk against the Chantry. I don't know much about Perrin Threnhold, but apparently he had something against the Chantry that hasn't been discovered (As far as I know of) and so I'm left to speculate. Perhaps one of his family members was a mage, and was forced to go to the circle where he/she later died by the hands of the Templars due to a failed harrowing? Or perhaps we see the complete opposite situation to what happen with Meredith. Who knows. People called this man a tyrant, but I haven't yet seen an explanation for this accusation other than to be a dick against the Orlesian people on ships by forcing them to pay outrageous taxes. Knight-Commander Guylian had sent a comment to Divine Beatrix III: "It is not our place to interfere in political affairs. We are here to safeguard the city against magic, not against itself." Yet the the Divine wanted her Templars to do the opposite of what The Order represent just that she can do a favor to her Orlais Emperor friend. The Chantry should have no postilion in politics, yet they manage to squeeze right in. Is it any wonder why Threnhold wanted to expel the Templars from his city?

I religiously play as a mage in DA... I know I'm selling myself short in the game, but I'm just that... a mage addict. I also play one in Skyrim as well. As a mage I truly understand the role of a Templar. The task of protecting mages from society and to themselves, and to implement justice, if needed. I would want a Templar to show me mercy by preforming the Rite of Tranquility if I ever became weak enough to the point where I pose a great risk against myself and for others.

Templars are necessary to have in society and thats why as a Mage player I support the Templars while I do agree that circle mages should have some freedom once they pass their Horrowing and deemed healthy for civilization living.

[dragonflight288]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

I think this thread needs a bit of a Templar perspective

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...
Well, the fact that all the nations south of Tevinter have evolved over 1000 years. They are now a completely different culture with a completely different outlook on magic than Tevinter has.

Even when Tevinter surrenedered and became Andrastian, it was done on their terms. They interpreted the Chant of Light differently than the White Chantry did (they are called the Black Chantry.) 

The mages are also highly divided in their own politics, as we see from the Fraternities. The Loyalists are one of the more powerful ones, and they are die-hard Andrastian/Chantry apologists.

As the mages have declared their Independence, the thing that would keep them from becoming another Tevinter is keep them from claiming political power as a group. Tevinter is all about magical talent. Every other nation is completely against and afraid of magic. If the mages live free, those nations would only become Tevinter 2.0 is keep them, as a Circle or as a whole, from gaining political power. And if they do, they need to have some very close watchers with templar like abilities, but without the baggage the current batch of templars/seekers possess.

And there are societies in Thedas that prove that mages living free don't autimatically mean New Tevinter. The Dalish have mages living side-by-side with non-mages, and while led by a Keeper, it isn't a mageocracy. If you play as a Dalish warden, as you talk to people you learn that your parents were forbidden by the elders to bond/elope, and your father was a Keeper. They had to sneak off to marry. If a Keeper had all the power like the Tevinters do, they wouldn't need to do that.

There's also the Rivaini Seers. Mages who willinly allow themselves to be possessed by spirits of the Fade, and are highly regarded by the Rivaini for their wisdom and as spiritual advisors. In fact, this practice was so popular that when the Chantry tried locking up the Seers, the non-mages resisted the Chantry so completely, that the Circle there was more of a showcase, showing they are Andrastian but were unique in that the common man wasn't afraid of mages and magic.

There are no guarantees I can offer you since I don't know how the development team in Inquisition will take the story, but there are possible safe-guards, and I believe a system of checks and balances would be the best bet.
[/quote]

To claim that the Dalish or Rivain are not a magocracy is incorrect. We've seen from DA2 that while non-mages may hold positions that carry some authority within the clan, they have no real power since when a true crysis hit; such as with Marethari keeping the clan in the same place for seven years;there was nothing anyone in the Clan could do beyond bringing their concerns to the Keeper who could and did refuse their pleas out of nothing but her own feelings over "abandoning" Merril.[/quote]

This is simply not true. Merrill specifically says they lost their halla which pulled their aravels. That is discussed by the Dalish throughout the game, and in Act 3, some dalish say they got in contact with another clan which is now on its way with more halla so they can leave. The storyteller, or maybe it's the crafter, but some Dalish (definitely one of those two, I just can't remember which one) says specifically that they are tired of staying there and will be leaving before that other clan arrives.

Their not leaving wasn't 100% because Merethari wanted to bring Merrill back. I doubt it was even 10%. It was because, as a clan without halla, they simply couldn't.

[quote] It got to the point where even the master Crafter; who is often presented by Pro-Mages as evidence of how non-mages hold power in dalish clans; just packed up and left.[/quote]

Ah, so it was the crafter. And he didn't leave because Merethari was a mage. He left because he was sick of staying and didn't want to wait for the other clan to arrive with more halla. He was sick of Merethari's lack of leadership, but he loved her enough to try and kill Hawke and Merrill if Hawke doesn't coddle their sensitive egos when Merethari is killed as an abomination.

That has nothing to do with Merethari or Merrill being a mage, and his frustration doesn't revolve around magic at all.

[quote]All Keepers must be mages and who chooses the First? The Keeper out of any criteria s/he deems sufficient.[/quote]

Lanaya had to compete against several others, so it isn't any the Keeper deems sufficient, or at least that's what's implied by Lanaya when you talk to her about it in Origins. She had to earn it.

But still, what is inherently negative about this? And please be specific about why the Dalish system is so bad. I'm genuinely curious why their small nomadic groups being led by a mage is inherently bad.

[quote]Therefore, we can say that the dalish clan are not only a magocracy but they are also an authoritarian state where mages and only mages hold any real power. [/quote]

With a council of Hahren who can order the Keeper not to marry, forcing a Dalish Warden's parents to act like rebellious teenagers and go behind the elders backs. Nor do the Keepers seem to have the power to prevent members of the clan who wish to leave from doing so. 

It can't be called an authoritarian state because the Keepers aren't total authoritarians....well, some Keepers may be, and others may be a bit more democratic.

And if you read Zathrian's codex while playing as a Dalish, you get more information on how Arlathvhen work every ten years. I will quote the bit that isn't about Zathrian but about that.

In Arlathvhen, it is common for all the hahren to hold a private council
while their respective clans are still settling in. These meetings
inevitably last well into the next day and end with furious shouting,
such that many say that the true reason the clans all go their separate
ways is that no two hahren can stand each other.


It sounds more like a squabbling congress/senate made up of non-mages than Keepers deciding things. I don't know if the private council these elders hold are about deciding the direction of the Dalish, deciding how the Dalish should handle new artifacts and lore they uncover, or merely to get everyone else up to date, but we know there's far more going on than Keepers controlling everything.

[quote]The example that you mention of a Keeper having to sneak off to marry does not work because the elders that forbade the wedding did not belong to the clan of said Keeper. Meaning, that while he may not have had authority over them doesn't mean their own Keeper didn't.[/quote]

And thus, they had to sneak behind everyone's backs, and what does that other clan's keeper have to do with the elders making a decision? It was the elder's choice, and the Keeper of a completely different clan had to sneak her away to marry her. That does not mean the Keeper of the dalish mother's clan approved it at all, or disapproved of the elder's decision. The fact stands that the elders made a decision and a keeper had to play rebellious teenager to get what he want, and went behind their backs.

They ultimately couldn't do anything, not because she married a Keeper, but because the Dalish don't stop their members from leaving the clan of their own free will, as we see many times through origins and da2. Zevran's mother left to be with a Woodcutter (who ultimately abandoned her.) Fenyriel's mother left to be with an Antivan merchant, the Dalish Warden leaves to join the Warden's to get a cure for the taint (and thus became a Warden,) Merrill leaves freely from her clan because of a dispute with Merethari over how they should go about doing their job as Dalish when it comes to ancient artifacts, specifically the eluvian.

Dalish don't stop people from leaving their clans, so those elders couldn't stop the dalish warden's parents from marrying, and it wasn't because the father was a Keeper.

[quote]We don't know nearly as much about Rivain but we do know that Seers hold leadership positions in the country; World of Thedas page 80.[/quote]

And the Seers are so respected and the culture loves them so much that when the Chantry tried taking them away, the non-mages resisted so strongly that the Chantry was forced to acquiese to many freedoms that every other Circle's weren't granted.

The non-mages of Rivaini didn't seem to have any problems with their seers being in leadership positions or in positions of spiritual advisors.

[quote]And then, there are the Chasind who are said to be ruled by shamans who are said to have taught magic by Flemeth: meaning, mages.[/quote]

We know less about the Shamans than we do about the Seers. In Mark of the Assassin, Lord Prosper has a Chasind bodyguard who absolutely despises mages and breaks them and their minds so they can be controlled. It could easily be a individual thing, limited to him, but we have no knowledge at present that discusses where Shamans truly stand in their society. All there are are some rumors that Flemeth is the one who taught them magic.

But if Flemeth taught them magic, using Morrigan as an example, wouldn't that make them better mages than circle trained ones?

In the end the shamans cannot be truly discussed as in depth as I would like due to a lack of information. If we have to rely on rumors to make our points, well that is hardly compelling evidence.

[quote]These are three non-Andrastian cultures who have accepted magic and yet, what has the result been? Mages dominating society.[/quote]

This is a claim without sufficient proof. I have offered plenty of counter-points to the Dalish, the Seers are so beloved, and World of Thedas said some seers take leadership positions, so that isn't magic dominating others, and there is simply not enough information on the shamans of the Chasind to make a solid claim either for or against. All there is is a rumor that Flemeth originally taught them and there is a Chasind who acts more like a Qunari when it comes to magic that we have met in DA2.

[quote]The fact that the non-mages of these cultures seems to have mostly accepted thse conditions doesn't mean they are good, only that these people have been indocrinated from birth.
After all, do you believe these mages rulers are interested in expanding upon the dangers of magic?[/quote]

Without more knowledge on how they work their magic, their customs and ways, I cannot say. Not enough information.

[quote]It is true that Andrastian cultures have evolved over time to be less accepting of political positions that would place mages over non-mages but only someone extremely naive (I'm not saying you are) could believe this means mages could not exert power over their politics in due time.
After all, Western Society has also (de)evolved from a time where monarchies and the Church held power to one where corporations now rule the world.[/quote]

Or beauracrats. And corrupt politicians.

As for saying mages would never gain political power, I agree with you that they likely will if given more freedoms. Heck, my Amell Warden gained a lot of political power as Chancellor and Arl of Amaranthine.

But I have yet to see how this is inherently bad if a mage or the mages don't control everything.

To give an example of what I mean, say Alistair, who is probably Fiona's son with Maric, has a son, and that son became a mage. Would it be inherently bad if that mage became King because of the non-mage Landsmeet would also be there? And if so, why?

[quote]Now, in Thedas where industry is extremely limited, who has the better chance to dominate the market? The mages; who can make things appear from thin-air; or the non-mages; who can't?[/quote]

Not true. Mages don't will things (like swords or carved goods) into being unless they're in the Fade, and that only lasts while in the Fade...because everything there is simply the expression of a thought. Mages need resources as well. A skilled mage craftsman could make things a non-mage simply couldn't compete with, but how is this bad? That's the free market.

As a result of this, that mages goods would be FAR more expensive, and it's likely that only the nobility would be able to afford their services. Most militian or guardsmen wouldn't get paid enough for all the extra bits and pieces that a mage can provide, and would still go a regular smithy. The farmer most certainly couldn't afford a mage so they'd still go to regular craftsman. And then there's the anti-mage sentiment, and people like Ser Perth wouldn't use their goods in any way because they hate magic, believing it to be unholy.

Personally, I don't see how a mage crafter can match Wade and Herran though. Those two are hilarious AND skilled. Probably a bit of bias there, but I want those two back!

[quote]The answer should be clear. Magic is an advantage that will be used to benefit mages and, at the end of the day, mages will be the ones dominating all forms of industry.
Money is power and through money, mages will be in a good position to influence the politics of Andrastian cultures. Therefore, while I don't expect to see a mage sitting in the orlesian throne anytime soon, a magical corporation holding the power from behind the scenes is a much more plausible fear.

Therefore, what prevents the rise of another Tevinter? The Circle system. If mages are freed, they will use their superior abilities to dominate society more or less covertly.

I'll probrably write something about the conditions of the Circle later.
[/quote]

So essentially, you are saying that mages should be locked up and have many rights taken away because of something that might happen.

That doesn't fly for me.

We've debated each other plenty of times so I know I won't convince you and you know you won't convince me, but well, I suppose we'll let people who read our debates decide who has the more compelling argument, and call it good.

As for the conditions, if you want to talk about the luxery th mages enjoyed until after they declared Independence, feel free. But remember what I pointed out when talking about the mage origin and how the Enchanters were working with apprentices. It's the emotions of the mage in question that is essential to controlling their power. Trying to control flames without a cool head will get yourself burned and on fire. If the environment the mages are in are not supporting them emotionally, and that doesn't mean give them what they want, like a spoiled child might, but rather an environment where they can feel confident about themselves and their power, then it's a danger.

When it comes to that danger of controlling magic, you have to be able to show that the Circles not only provide food, shelter and an education, but also provides emotional stability. If there is no such stability, then the Circles will ultimately fail to prevent abominations and blood mages, and that's exactly what happened by the end of Asunder.

[MisterJB]

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...
This is simply not true. Merrill specifically says they lost their halla which pulled their aravels. That is discussed by the Dalish throughout the game, and in Act 3, some dalish say they got in contact with another clan which is now on its way with more halla so they can leave. The storyteller, or maybe it's the crafter, but some Dalish (definitely one of those two, I just can't remember which one) says specifically that they are tired of staying there and will be leaving before that other clan arrives.

Their not leaving wasn't 100% because Merethari wanted to bring Merrill back. I doubt it was even 10%. It was because, as a clan without halla, they simply couldn't.[/quote]
The fact that certain members of the clan; one of them who can be said to hold some political sway; actually packed up and left shows that walking away is very much an option; even Merril is surpised they haven't left, halla or no. The only reason they lost their halla was because they staid in the first place.
The matter of fact is that we've seen members of the clan holding positions that went against the Keeper's wish; Velanna's group, Marethari's in DA2 and also in DAO when they are ordered to leave without Tamlen; and in all of these cases, those who disagreed with the Keeper had to leave the clan showing that there is no extablished way for the elves to forcibly change the position of the Keeper, through a vote or something, without having to go to exile.
If  one person; the Keeper; holds all the real power, that is an authoritarian system. And mages are the only ones eligible for Keeperhood.
Ergo, the Dalish are an authoritarian magocracy.

[quote]
Ah, so it was the crafter. And he didn't leave because Merethari was a mage. He left because he was sick of staying and didn't want to wait for the other clan to arrive with more halla. He was sick of Merethari's lack of leadership, but he loved her enough to try and kill Hawke and Merrill if Hawke doesn't coddle their sensitive egos when Merethari is killed as an abomination.

That has nothing to do with Merethari or Merrill being a mage, and his frustration doesn't revolve around magic at all. [/quote]
His reasons for leaving were not related to magic, certainly. Rather, his frustation was due to a ruling system were absolute power is granted only to an elite few based on the simple fact they were born mages.
Therefore, it all comes back to magic because only mages are allowed to be Keepers.

[quote]
Lanaya had to compete against several others, so it isn't any the Keeper deems sufficient, or at least that's what's implied by Lanaya when you talk to her about it in Origins. She had to earn it. [/quote]
To compete for the attention of one's superior doesn't mean the criteria for choosing a sucessor are still not entirely up to said superior.
Sith Apprentices compete for the attention of Sith Lords all the time.

[quote]But still, what is inherently negative about this? And please be specific about why the Dalish system is so bad. I'm genuinely curious why their small nomadic groups being led by a mage is inherently bad.[/quote]

The system is discriminatory. The position of leader is reserved only to mages. Perhaps many elven non-mages would be more fit for leadership but they are all passed up in favor of whoever happens to hold magic and this is all; most likely; based on the legend of how all elves used to be mages (meaning that the "perfect elf" would be a mage which should be important for a culture so obssessed with their past like the Dalish are).
These Keepers hold supreme power and, again, only because they are mages. I am not claiming that to have a mage in a leadership position is inherently negative; only that giving absolute power to mages for no reason other than their magic IS inherently bad.
Thus, the Dalish serve as an example of yet another culture where mages are freed and also the top of the social strata which supports my theory of how mage freedom = mage supremacy.

[quote]
It sounds more like a squabbling congress/senate made up of non-mages than Keepers deciding things. I don't know if the private council these elders hold are about deciding the direction of the Dalish, deciding how the Dalish should handle new artifacts and lore they uncover, or merely to get everyone else up to date, but we know there's far more going on than Keepers controlling everything. [/quote]
Even dictators must delegate some functions to personally appointed functionaries, they can hardly keep track of everything. But, at the end of the day, we still haven't seen the will of a non-mage being given primacy over that of a mage when the chips are down. Withint the same clan, anyway.

[quote]
And thus, they had to sneak behind everyone's backs, and what does that other clan's keeper have to do with the elders making a decision? It was the elder's choice, and the Keeper of a completely different clan had to sneak her away to marry her. That does not mean the Keeper of the dalish mother's clan approved it at all, or disapproved of the elder's decision. The fact stands that the elders made a decision and a keeper had to play rebellious teenager to get what he want, and went behind their backs.[/quote]
If the authoritarian leader of a state lacks power over citizens of a different state, does that make him any less of an authoritarian leader within his own state? Just because a Keeper doesn't hold power over the members of a different clan, it doesn't mean he doesn't hold power over the members of his clan.

I know this is not the best example but I very much doubt even a Magister can order around the slaves of a different Magister.

[quote]
Dalish don't stop people from leaving their clans, so those elders couldn't stop the dalish warden's parents from marrying, and it wasn't because the father was a Keeper.[/quote]
That is true but all that is is "My way or the highway; if you're not happy, you can always leave."

[quote]
And the Seers are so respected and the culture loves them so much that when the Chantry tried taking them away, the non-mages resisted so strongly that the Chantry was forced to acquiese to many freedoms that every other Circle's weren't granted.

The non-mages of Rivaini didn't seem to have any problems with their seers being in leadership positions or in positions of spiritual advisors.[/quote]
People have supported many stupid things in history. Just because a large group of people appreciate something doesn't mean that something is, objectivelly, positive.
I can call discrimination bad even if the people being discriminated against have no issue with it.

[quote]
We know less about the Shamans than we do about the Seers. In Mark of the Assassin, Lord Prosper has a Chasind bodyguard who absolutely despises mages and breaks them and their minds so they can be controlled. It could easily be a individual thing, limited to him, but we have no knowledge at present that discusses where Shamans truly stand in their society. All there are are some rumors that Flemeth is the one who taught them magic.[/quote]
It's true we don't know much about the shamans but if it's true that they lead the chasind, then it's yet another example supporting my belief.

[quote]But if Flemeth taught them magic, using Morrigan as an example, wouldn't that make them better mages than circle trained ones?[/quote]
Maybe? I've already shown my main fear of magic does not lie in possession.
Besides, Flemeth is hardly a teacher I'd trust when it comes to demonic possession, given her history. Morrigan has already entertained thoughts of binding a demon to her service.


[quote]This is a claim without sufficient proof. I have offered plenty of counter-points to the Dalish, the Seers are so beloved, and World of Thedas said some seers take leadership positions, so that isn't magic dominating others, and there is simply not enough information on the shamans of the Chasind to make a solid claim either for or against. All there is is a rumor that Flemeth originally taught them and there is a Chasind who acts more like a Qunari when it comes to magic that we have met in DA2. [/quote]
Dalish has free mages; mages are the only ones allowed to be Keeper.
Rivain, free mages. Seers leading communities.
Chasind, free mages; lead by mages (according to rumor).
Tevinter, free mages; only mages are allowed in any sort of influential position and only a minority of non-mages are not slaves.

I'd say that there is a clear pattern here. Just because in 2(possibly 3) out of four cultures, the non-mages appear to accept their positions as lower class citizens doesn't change the fact that they are and that; therefore; the claims of people who fear mage freedom will lead to non-mages being reduced to second class citizens are very much validated.

[quote]
Without more knowledge on how they work their magic, their customs and ways, I cannot say. Not enough information.[/quote]
C'mon, when has any state in the planent ever admitted that the way they do thing is discriminatory or innefectual and that they should change?
Did aristrocrats ever claimed divine right was bullsh*t ?

[quote]
Or beauracrats. And corrupt politicians. [/quote]
They're all in someone's pocket. Someone whose pocket is quite large to fit all the money they have. Money is power.

[quote]As for saying mages would never gain political power, I agree with you that they likely will if given more freedoms. Heck, my Amell Warden gained a lot of political power as Chancellor and Arl of Amaranthine.

But I have yet to see how this is inherently bad if a mage or the mages don't control everything.[/quote]
I believe they will control everything.

[quote]To give an example of what I mean, say Alistair, who is probably Fiona's son with Maric, has a son, and that son became a mage. Would it be inherently bad if that mage became King because of the non-mage Landsmeet would also be there? And if so, why?[/quote]
That child would be king not because of his magic but because his father was king. I also don't look favorably to monarchy, BTW. It's just like picking Alistair over Anora because he has royal blood and she doesn't despite the fact she is much better suited for rulling.

[quote]
Not true. Mages don't will things (like swords or carved goods) into being unless they're in the Fade, and that only lasts while in the Fade...because everything there is simply the expression of a thought. Mages need resources as well. A skilled mage craftsman could make things a non-mage simply couldn't compete with, but how is this bad? That's the free market.[/quote]
In the official comics, we see a twelve year old mage girl who never received training, knows only one spell and yet is capable of producing steel of finer quality than that of the dwarves. Therefore, even if she can't will a sword out of nowhere, a group of mages like her would dominate the metalurgy industry.
It's true that this is free market but I'm not a proponent of the belief that "Well, mages are superior so, we'lld just have to shut up and deal with." I am not eager to watch the non-magical population being relegated to second class or extinct.
I'd much rather fight and control the mages if that is the alternative.

[quote]As a result of this, that mages goods would be FAR more expensive, and it's likely that only the nobility would be able to afford their services. Most militian or guardsmen wouldn't get paid enough for all the extra bits and pieces that a mage can provide, and would still go a regular smithy. The farmer most certainly couldn't afford a mage so they'd still go to regular craftsman. And then there's the anti-mage sentiment, and people like Ser Perth wouldn't use their goods in any way because they hate magic, believing it to be unholy. [/quote]
Mages owning all the big corporations while non-mages are reduced to small smithys would still be non-mages becoming second class citizens.
Besides, all the mages would have to do is for a super-corporation of theirs to diminish prices so they can be afforded by the common peasantry for a year. The result is that small smithys can't compete and they are either put out of business or start working for the mages. And afterwards, the mages can just raise the prices again and everyone will be forced to eat out of their hands.
And, of course, when magical super-corporations are the sole; or strongest; provider of weapons and armor or simply construction material for non-mage nations, they can pretty much control with whom that nation wages war with. Which means the enemies of the mages. From there onward, that particular nation becomes the personal army of of the mages with their children bleeding for the mages.
And we're only talking about one particular industry. There are many other avenues for mages to dominate.

[quote]
So essentially, you are saying that mages should be locked up and have many rights taken away because of something that might happen.

That doesn't fly for me.[/quote]
Would you be comfortable with e-mailing the passwords of all nuclear bases of the Western World to North Korea? Or anyone, really?

We've debated each other plenty of times so I know I won't convince you and you know you won't convince me, but well, I suppose we'll let people who read our debates decide who has the more compelling argument, and call it good.

[quote]if you want to talk about the luxery th mages enjoyed until after they declared Independence[/quote]
You know me too well. Probrably because we've been doing this for years and we inevitably revert to the same arguments.

Modifié par MisterJB, 04 août 2013 - 02:17 .

[MisterJB]

Ok, on to the conditions of the Circle.
First, allow me to debunk some of the most common myths that circulate around life in the Circle.

-Mages are punished before they even commit a crime.

I think we've all heard this one before, yes. And if one looks only at the surface, one might even find reason for it. In modern times, incarceration is a common form of punishment. We see mages incarcerated so, we assume they are being punished.
But if one were to really think about it, one would realize the rule of law demands that people sacrifice their personal freedoms so that society, as a whole, can exist. It's why there are things we can't do, objects we can't own, etc.
Do these rules apply only to those who have given evidence of being dangerous? Of course not, they apply to all citizens from the moment they were born, to the moment they die solely because the possibility that we might be dangerous exists.

This and nothing else is what we see in the Circle. Restrictions being placed upon the mages due to the possibility they might be dangerous just like they are placed upon every other common citizen. The restrictions placed upon the mages are harsher only to account for the increased danger they pose.
Regardless of how much the Pro-Mages might wish it to be so, having a sword is not quite the same as being able to flay someone with your mind or turn them into slaves with a cut on the wrist.
After all, you would not argue that a 9mm is the exact same as rocket launcher and one should guard them with the same zealousness just because they both serve the same basicn function, which is to kill, would you?

More to come...or not at all. Depends on my mood.

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 août 2013 - 02:59 .

[DKJaigen]

jamesthessj4 wrote...

I am a bit divided when it comes to this choice at the end of the game. Both sides give plenty or reasons why their side is best. Though as far as the mages go well....there are lots of reasons why one should side with the templars and thats just because of all the crazy blood mages who want to bring back the days when mages ruled over man or they are just plain crazy. The hardest choice of all of course is to kill or spare Anders life for what he does. There could of been peace between the two groups but of course if he had not of done what he did then what would be the main focuse of the next game? If you think about it, Flemeth knew it was going to happen. She hinted at it earlier in the game i think. Any ways back on topic. Do mages deserve true freedom or will said freedom give rise to another tevinter imperium? So in the end im not sure which sides cause is more noble and just and deserves to be defended. 

Both sides make have their points that are correct. And if you look at the conflict in kirkwall howver i simply go for the mages because i dont want to kill a lot of innocent mages for the crimes of one man. That the circle had some corruption into it makes it the lesser evil however. But you make the mistake that you dont look further then the mage/templars.

Over the thousand years we dont see the circles accomplishing anything . Mages are just as  vulnerable ro possesion as they where a thousand years back. This is caused by the chantry and templars that greatly impede magical research and even technological research. This sets a dangerous trend. When your technological backwards you leave yourself open to be conquered by another faction. The same goes for magic. Look at the trailer of DA:I you see veil being torn asunder and demons pooring out. templars cannot stop this (demons use bloodmagic enmass) at all. you need a mage to mend the veil.

From a completely pragmatical point of view you support the mages. The mundanes will not survive without magic. The best example are grey wardens that are created by drinking magically treated darkspawn + archdemon blood.  Otherwise the warden recruit gets killed by the potency of the archdemon blood if he drinks untreated archdemon blood.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 06 août 2013 - 08:13 .

[Shaigunjoe]

Mages.

[Epic FemShep]

I had a hard time with this choice but I picked to side with the templars because I was romancing Fenris as my Female Hawke and we all know how much he hates mages. I didn't know if something bad happened to Fenris if you picked to side with the mages, so I just went with the templars.

[Secretlyapotato]

I picked mages because I just don't see why Hawke would choose the templers. Either Hawke is a mage or Hawke's sister is a mage so....

[WhackyRavenLand]

Templars...every time. They may be corrupt and all that...but I just get tired of defending mages when they're accused of bloodmagic...only to have them turn to bloodmagic when I've been successful in defending them.

I'd like to be somehow rewarded for my effort, not stabbed in the back. They have no reason to pull that crap after I've saved their bloody asses! Seriously, WTF!?

[Ferretinabun]

WhackyRavenLand wrote...

Templars...every time. They may be corrupt and all that...but I just get tired of defending mages when they're accused of bloodmagic...only to have them turn to bloodmagic when I've been successful in defending them.

I'd like to be somehow rewarded for my effort, not stabbed in the back. They have no reason to pull that crap after I've saved their bloody asses! Seriously, WTF!?

This.

Every single mage in the game is either a bloodmage (or at least an abomination) - 95% of which are raving, psychotic lunatics - or they are named Bethany.

In Kirkwall especially, the mages have shown they really cannot be trusted at all.

[General TSAR]

Templar Pride, though I wish we had someone who wasn't a raving lunatic in charge of Kirkwall's Templar order; someone like Greagoir.

[Sertoria]

I always sided with the Templars, not because of any belief that Meredith wasn't insane, but because I approve of the system in general. Barring extreme circumstances, it seems like it's an efficient and somewhat fair way to manage the mages' power and teach them safe ways to harness it so that they don't hurt themselves or others.[ * ] Even then, the Circle isn't enough to teach mages the dangers properly, and just a few rogues managed to completely slaughter an entire Circle population, both the Templars and the mages, and the Circle is the most well-equipped place to deal with that sort of thing.

True, children with responsible family members who know enough magic to teach others could play substitute for the Circle and raise the children to be responsible apostates, but how many responsible apostates do we know in-canon? There's Morrigan, who had Flemeth (who taught her primarily out of self-interest - it wouldn't be good for a future vessel to blow herself up), there's Anders (who grew up in the Circle and so has its teachings to benefit from), Bethany, and potentially Hawke, who were both raised by Malcolm, escaped from the Circle and having its teachings to benefit from... Who else? (Serious question, I can't remember )

That's even assuming that there will be mage parents in all cases, let alone responsible ones. What about children who grow up and aren't aware they're mages, due to a recessive mage gene, until they accidentally contact a demon or until they set some poor child's head on fire, Wynne style? What about bandits who count numerous apostates within their ranks, such as that of the Evets Marauders? If you consider how small of a child Connor was, and how much death and destruction he caused and could potentially cause, it certainly shows you how much danger we're working with. That was just one mage, and a child at that, and it was all done unintentionally. How much damage could a mage wreak with intent?

I suppose you could argue that you could hire mage tutors, in the way Isolde did Jowan, and that they'd be more freely available if the Circle didn't place such a taboo on being an apostate, but that still doesn't address the issue of a previously unknown mage going haywire, and Connor went haywire even with that tutoring (though you could argue that it was shoddy tutoring). Plus, I doubt peasants would be able to afford the same luxury that Isolde had, which meant that mage tutors would have to be either charitable enough to be inexpensive/free or incredibly prolific, which I don't think would be very likely. The tutors would also need to come with recommendation or be officially trained by other mages to be of any use, which would see a system like the Circle arise anyway, since an ineffectual mage tutor would just as likely end up with a Connor as no tutor at all.

The environment is important. If you're raised in an environment of mages with the mentality that magic can be controlled and that demons are bad, you'll be far less likely to succumb to something you've always been taught to be wrong. Sure, most people know demons are bad even without the Circle, but if they can seem convincing to someone like Merrill, who already knows the dangers and is considerably wary around demons despite her dealing with them, can you really say that demons can't entice others who would probably not have benefitted from the mentoring she received?

Not only that, but there needs to be an array of people prepared to deal with the mage if something DOES go wrong. If there's another Connor despite the teachings and educations, a group of villagers aren't going to be able to do anything to stop it. There's a variety of in-game lores that mention abominations killing scores of people who specialise at exterminating them, so Maker knows how many civilians an unchecked one could kill before the Templars arrived to destroy it. Heck, the Templar order might not even exist anymore, so nobody would be equipped enough to handle it, and the abomination might slaughter the entire village before the Templars got wind, and even if they did receive word in time, it would take just as long to get there and sort it out, and even then there's no guarantee they could kill it.

To me, the Circles always seemed like a boarding school for mages, rather than an oppressive method of incarceration, and one that's necessary considering the power they unintentionally possess. It's a method of education and ingratiation just as much as it is one of separation.

Dalish elves don't count, since they have their own version of a Circle in the Keeper. It's on a less grand scale, but iirc there's some statement of elven mages being assigned to different clans in need of a First, and the Dalish clans are both small enough and have a enough of a clan-based mentality that wouldn't typically foster the kind of selfishness that would lead to demon summoning and blood magic. Obviously, on occasion, it would, but that would end up the way Merrill's storyline did, and I think it's been stated in-game (or in-codex) that Keepers have had to put down rogue Firsts in the past, so things do go awry even then, but we don't experience enough of the Dales to note the regularity of its occurrence.

Though it's true that some of the Circles are dangerous and it puts the Templars in a position of power that they might potentially abuse, I'd assume you wouldn't abolish the justice system just because some courts are corrupt, or abolish all government because some countries have oppressive ones, and it's the same thing here. You deal with the corruption where you find it, create methods to help expose that corruption, and seek ways to improve the Circles without abolishing them completely.

It might seem unfair that they have these extra restrictions simply for being who they are, but sadly, they seem to be necessary, considering the threat mages possess not only to themselves, but to the people completely unrelated.

As Meredith said, "if you cannot tell [her] a better way, do not brand [her] a tyrant". In those circumstances, she may have been acting like one, but the principle nonetheless applies. The system of the Circle does work, but it can be improved, much like everything else in Thedas.

[ * ] We already know that Kirkwall is in a place where the Veil is
especially thin, leading to more mage-induced problems than usual, so it
makes sense that the Knight-Commander would be stricter there than in
other places. I'd count the original pre-Idol years as being amongst the
aforementioned "extreme circumstances", and therefore don't count
amongst consideration.

tl;dr, I know.

Modifié par Sertoria, 10 septembre 2013 - 03:52 .

[Florinnnn]

both sides are so terrible imo just randomly pick one

[Lazy Jer]

I usually side with the mages. This isn't because I feel that the Circle is wrong, I feel that Meredith is wrong. This is a case where innocent people are going to die for a problem they had nothing to do with (i.e. the Andersplosion). Add to this that I usually play a rogue and thus Bethany is in the Circle and I just can't bring myself to do it. I put myself in Hawke's shoes and think to myself that there's no way he'd risk his sister being killed because of what Anders did more or less on his own.

The Circle system in and of itself isn't really a bad idea. Having somewhere where mages can go to study magic and learn how to harness and control the power inside them can certainly be an asset. But, as Meredith's case shows, it has problems. As does some of the things we hear from Anders, if his viewpoint can be trusted.

[Aren]

IMHO  templars is the best choice, i mean is too late to try to save the mages, simply because after 7 years of oppresion many of them are already become blood mages.  

If you choose to side with the mages is the same because many of them will die just as reported in Asunder, because eventually templars from other city will come to track evry mage by using the phylactery..

Also if you choose the mages you will lost the champion title and forced to leave kirkwall, and many innocent peoples of the city will die because there is no order in the city.

[Lulupab]

There really is no answer to this question.

 

But if you are talking about Kirkwall I personally blame the Templars more. There is bad on both sides however the good mages are completely powerless to change anything but this is not the case for Templars. They choose to obey anything regardless of its morality without any question. And Cullen uses a quote when you ask him to spare a mage "Lasy minute change of heart". He is the only templar that decides he can no longer obey the crazy and even he does it at the last minute where it really doesn't count. If hawke can kill Meredith in her monster mode killing those Templars that followed Cullen would have been a breeze if they decided to not question things.

 

In other words Templars can be quite the sheep, following without question as long as they are fed.

[Darkly Tranquil]

I have always supported the mages in both games, not because they are without fault or even the superior side but on the basic principle that it is fundamentally wrong to imprison and/or kill/tranquillise a person simply for being. Mages don't choose to be what they are and locking them away in a prison from which they can never earn release and are forced to live completely at the mercy of gaolers who loathe their very existence is both unduly cruel and disproportionate; it fails the most basic test of natural justice. It is collective punishment of the worst kind - because some mages have used their powers wrongly in the past, you are all declared guilty and punished accordingly without recourse to appeal or opportunity to prove that you yourself are capable of being responsible.

And, as we have seen, the Circle's invariably fail in their intended purpose anyway. The heavy handed way the Templars run them merely serves to exacerbate the mutual antagonism on both sides and drives mages to anger, despair, and subsequent desperate actions. As we know from the real world, people who feel powerless and desperate will often resort of to extreme, often self destructive means purely to strike back at their oppressors. The heavy handed way the Circle system is run guarantees that mages will turn to blood magic or become abominations if subjected to enough pressure. Push people down for long enough and they will invariably strike out at those they hold responsible for their suffering, even in ways that often ultimately harm their own cause. But maybe that is the intention of the Circle system? To create a self perpetuating cycle of uprisings and Annulments in order to justify the continued complete subjugation of all mages. The Chantry is certainly a devious, ruthless, and hypocritical enough organisation to do it.

In regards to the Kirkwall situation, I side with the mages based on the principle of Blackstone's Formulation - "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer". If anyone should die for the destruction of the Chantry it is Anders. There is no evidence that the mages of the Circle were in any way party to his deeds and so they should not be punished for them simply to assuage a mob. Unless it can be proven that every Mage in the circle conspired with Anders, killing them all is an affront the notion of justice. Personally, I don't even believe Meredith's justification at that point, she has been itching to annul the circle for years but the Grand Cleric held her back; once Elthina was dead, there was no-one to gainsay Meredith and her immediate response and the only action she will countenance is the Rite of Annulment. Her eagerness to do it and her unwillingness to consider any other solution suggests that this has been her preferred endgame for a long time. Of course, this brings up the question of the red lyrium idol and it's effect on her judgment, but in the end it hardly matters. In my own opinion, Meredith was unfit for command from day one. Her personal biases and experiences make her incapable of sound, detached judgments on matters regarding mages; people with such a pathological hatred/fear of another group of people should never be given power over them.

Now, having said all that, I'm not in any way against the notion of having the Circle as an institution of learning for mages (who do need to learn to manage their abilities), or of having Templars to deal with mages who do go rogue or become abominations. What is needed is for the Circle system to be reformed so that mages who prove that they can be trusted to use their powers responsibly can earn their freedom and actually live their lives (like Malcolm Hawke); voluntary ties like home, and family, and community are powerful motivators for good behaviour. Thus, the Circle would be more like a boarding school come university and less of a prison, and the Templars would become more like a police force, with less absolute control over every aspect of mages lives (stepping in only when serious incidents occur), and far greater accountability to ensure they do not abuse their authority.

Carrots work far better in motivating people than sticks, and as it stands, the Circle system is all stick, no carrot. That arrangement needs to be reversed so that mages are positively incentivised to learn to control and use their powers responsibly (and rewarded accordingly) and Templars are supervised appropriately so that they carry out their duties fairly and responsibly.