141 réponses à ce sujet

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Plaintiff wrote...

Seboist wrote...
It's clear which are the cheap fapbait games.

The ones that reward you with a pin-up to peruse at your leisure?

You forgot to call him a bigot.

[fchopin]

I completely disagree with you op.

More options do not signify less story unless you are talking about DA2. Da2 had no options and no story and what story it had was linier.

The Witcher games have both story and options so i have no idea where you get your information from.

[Roujinx94]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Seboist wrote...
It's clear which are the cheap fapbait games.

The ones that reward you with a pin-up to peruse at your leisure?

You forgot to call him a bigot.

I think cis-scum and misogynist would have more charm.

[R0vena]

Roujinx94 wrote...

Ghaleon80 wrote...

I like to have alot of options to craft story to how i want it to be even if it's not cannon it's still fun.

And this is why I keep saying we should get rid of save imports. If sequels either followed a established canon or had absolutely nothing to do with the last game except for the setting it would allow for much more freedom for the writers who wouldn't have to bother with small references to stuff from the past and with making sure they don't do anything that goes against it (which they did anyway with Leliana).

Take the OGB, for instance, if they just had a canon instead of save imports it would allow them to integrate him into the story perfectly and give him an important role like he deserves instead of something minor because they have to worry about the people who didn't do it or the people who had it done by Alistar or by Loghain or stabbed Morrigan or... you get the general idea. Now apply that to every choice and see what you get.

In this case they should NOT make OGB canon at all. Warden dead, end of story, start anew. Also in your scenario Warden couldn't possibly be female. If they make male Warden canon it will upset a lot of players (a-la SWTOR with Revan), me included.

[Roujinx94]

R0vena wrote...

Roujinx94 wrote...

Ghaleon80 wrote...

I like to have alot of options to craft story to how i want it to be even if it's not cannon it's still fun.

And this is why I keep saying we should get rid of save imports. If sequels either followed a established canon or had absolutely nothing to do with the last game except for the setting it would allow for much more freedom for the writers who wouldn't have to bother with small references to stuff from the past and with making sure they don't do anything that goes against it (which they did anyway with Leliana).

Take the OGB, for instance, if they just had a canon instead of save imports it would allow them to integrate him into the story perfectly and give him an important role like he deserves instead of something minor because they have to worry about the people who didn't do it or the people who had it done by Alistar or by Loghain or stabbed Morrigan or... you get the general idea. Now apply that to every choice and see what you get.

In this case they should NOT make OGB canon at all. Warden dead, end of story, start anew. Also in your scenario Warden couldn't possibly be female. If they make male Warden canon it will upset a lot of players (a-la SWTOR with Revan), me included.

Exactly what I meant, the OGB was just an example if they wanted to go with canon instead of starting completely anew. The plot from older games is unnecessary baggage that holds them back for the sake of making people feel like what they did matter, that should only be done in ME-like scenarios where everything is planned from beginning to end and the whole point of the trilogy is choice and consequence, both short and long-term (let's not go into the credibility of the ending here).

[R0vena]

Back to the topic: I definitely don't want Skyrim anything anywhere near Bioware games. It was so boring I am still yet to finish it, don't know if I'll ever do that.
Good story and some good meaningful choice (not necessarily every quest) within it is more my cup of tea.

[R0vena]

[quote]Roujinx94 wrote...

[quote]R0vena wrote...

[/quote]

In this case they should NOT make OGB canon at all. Warden dead, end of story, start anew. Also in your scenario Warden couldn't possibly be female. If they make male Warden canon it will upset a lot of players (a-la SWTOR with Revan), me included.

[/quote]

Exactly what I meant, the OGB was just an example if they wanted to go with canon instead of starting completely anew. The plot from older games is unnecessary baggage that holds them back for the sake of making people feel like what they did matter, that should only be done in ME-like scenarios where everything is planned from beginning to end and the whole point of the trilogy is choice and consequence, both short and long-term (let's not go into the credibility of the ending here).

[/quote]



Well, I agree that imports are limiting the story somewhat, but I don't think they are that limiting. Little cameos here and there don't really influence the story that much, just give the player a certain feeling of accomplishment and at least illusion that his/her previous choice mattered on the big scale of things. Which is... kind of nice, really.

Modifié par R0vena, 30 juillet 2013 - 12:20 .

[JCAP]

fchopin wrote...

I completely disagree with you op.

More options do not signify less story unless you are talking about DA2. Da2 had no options and no story and what story it had was linier.

The Witcher games have both story and options so i have no idea where you get your information from.

Some people are not aware of the implications of this question: more choices means more different scenarios, and more different scenarios means less time available for each.

Let's think about this: 

multiple choices game: we have 3 origin choices, and at some point we are requested to face our past. That means 3 different scenarios. And if they offer even more choices during that quest, we have even more different scenarios. That would consume the time of the entire team even of the voice actors (I am not sure, but I think the more they talk the more Bioware has to pay them) [and this is a simple example, if they do DAI like DAO they are dealing with many more scenarios]


In a linear story, they can focus all their efforts in that particular situation and that means more rich details in animation, world design, etc. For example, compare GTA conversations to Dragon Age or even witcher. All cutscenes where our protagonist is talking to someone they have no re-used animation, while in most RPG's they have a setting of animations and are constantly re-using them.

Imagine a team making a RPG. They have 5 writters, 3 designers and 2 programmers.

Now, their game will have 2 major branches and each one will have 10 or more. They will have to devide the time between the team. In these situations, the team usually just do something "acceptable" a put it on the game, they have to respect the time limit they have.

If it was a RPG with less branches, they would have more time to invest in each branch.

Imagine a writer is responsible to write what happens if you sold someone to slavery. In the former example, he would simply write that this person was sold to some slavers. In the latter, he would write that but he would still have time to put some more things on the paper, then he would write that this person would come back later for revenge. And the other team members would have time to make that happen. 

Modifié par JCAP, 30 juillet 2013 - 12:58 .

[OLDIRTYBARON]

While I certainly appreciate the save import feature (it crafts a canon unique to you), I wouldn't mind if with DA3 they decided to hand-wave Kirkwall and Origins in the way Elder Scrolls games work. Basically, nobody's sure what happened. Some people think option A happened, others still option B. It's not perfect, and it certainly doesn't make the "canon" of the series personalized like Bioware is known to do, but if they really need to break away from imports that's a good way to go.

Anything to avoid an established canon, really. I hate those.

[fchopin]

JCAP wrote...

Imagine a team making a RPG. They have 5 writters, 3 designers and 2 programmers.

Now, their game will have 2 major branches and each one will have 10 or more. They will have to devide the time between the team. In these situations, the team usually just do something "acceptable" a put it on the game, they have to respect the time limit they have.

If it was a RPG with less branches, they would have more time to invest in each branch.

Imagine a writer is responsible to write what happens if you sold someone to slavery. In the former example, he would simply write that this person was sold to some slavers. In the latter, he would write that but he would still have time to put some more things on the paper, then he would write that this person would come back later for revenge. And the other team members would have time to make that happen. 

Sorry for the delay but i was busy working.
Imagine a team that has to create 10 companions and try to create a love story for all, where do the writers get some time for the real story of the game?
 
Witcher has Geralt the monster hunter so the writers are free to create any story they like with many options and a very deep story.

[Fast Jimmy]

I'd like options that show a level of reactivity worth noticing.

Skyrim let's you have the freedom of killing kings, becoming an Archmage, head of the Thieves Guild, Master of the Blades...!

...and the only thing that changes is that guards randomly generate a different line to you as you walk past.

I'd like divergent content from my choices, choices that can cause the world to be changed, even if this reactivity is nothing more than a clever illusion.

I'm not sure if that falls down under freedom or story.

[JCAP]

fchopin wrote...

JCAP wrote...

Imagine a team making a RPG. They have 5 writters, 3 designers and 2 programmers.

Now, their game will have 2 major branches and each one will have 10 or more. They will have to devide the time between the team. In these situations, the team usually just do something "acceptable" a put it on the game, they have to respect the time limit they have.

If it was a RPG with less branches, they would have more time to invest in each branch.

Imagine a writer is responsible to write what happens if you sold someone to slavery. In the former example, he would simply write that this person was sold to some slavers. In the latter, he would write that but he would still have time to put some more things on the paper, then he would write that this person would come back later for revenge. And the other team members would have time to make that happen. 

Sorry for the delay but i was busy working.
Imagine a team that has to create 10 companions and try to create a love story for all, where do the writers get some time for the real story of the game?
 
Witcher has Geralt the monster hunter so the writers are free to create any story they like with many options and a very deep story.

That's exactly my point, more side quests or stories means less deep story and detail in each one and in the main. 

In witcher they have the luxury to focus their attention on other things because there is no character development like in DA.

When I say choices, I literaly mean things like the different branchs in a conversation, do you side with one party or another, etc...

More choices (choices with repercusions) = more content = less time and resources avaible for each = less detailed content.

Modifié par JCAP, 30 juillet 2013 - 02:09 .

[JCAP]

simfamSP wrote...

Why not...

BOTH!

This is a video-game company renowned for their RPGs, are they unable to make good games without sacrificing what made them famous in the first place? CDPR can do it, so can they.

Could you please read some of the previous comments? 

[Nefla]

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...

While I certainly appreciate the save import feature (it crafts a canon unique to you), I wouldn't mind if with DA3 they decided to hand-wave Kirkwall and Origins in the way Elder Scrolls games work. Basically, nobody's sure what happened. Some people think option A happened, others still option B. It's not perfect, and it certainly doesn't make the "canon" of the series personalized like Bioware is known to do, but if they really need to break away from imports that's a good way to go.

Anything to avoid an established canon, really. I hate those.

I agree, I think vague references and no one knowing what really happened is much better than a forced canon. I liked how they handled Revan in the Revanite and sealed vault parts of SWtOR since no default was given, but later when "Revan" was put in the game, it was horrible and I refuse to play that FP.

Modifié par Nefla, 30 juillet 2013 - 03:31 .

[L. Han]

Skyrim to me is a freaking sandbox game. Anyone going in and expecting great storytelling and drama is in for a massive disappointment.

The Witcher 2 is a linear game with a couple of "What If's" scenarios. The big choices you get to make changes the story up a lot. The Witcher 2 also has small bits and pieces that can also effect the ending (For example, preventing torturers from making the prince singing a letter).

I find it odd how people are trying to compare The Witcher to Dragon Age. It's ridiculous, I find them very different.

[Thomas Andresen]

Seboist wrote...

It's clear which are the cheap fapbait games.

The ones with actual, full frontal nudity?

Let's also not even mention how the nudity in The Witcher series does include lady-bits, but never man-bits.

fchopin wrote...

I completely disagree with you op.

More options do not signify less story unless you are talking about DA2. Da2 had no options and no story and what story it had was linier.

The Witcher games have both story and options so i have no idea where you get your information from.

I agree with your first 13 words.

JCAP wrote...

Imagine a team making a RPG. They have 5 writters, 3 designers and 2 programmers.

Uh.. Game development teams are generally distributed differently. Even in BioWare, the writing teams are probably the smallest, by far, per IP. Not because of which element is more important, but because of workload. Game design and programming is a massive amount of work. Ask any number of indie developers who's learned that the hard way.

And you also forgot artists.

Nefla wrote...

I agree, I think vague references and no one knowing what really happened is much better than a forced canon. I liked how they handled Revan in the Revanite and sealed vault parts of SWtOR since no default was given, but later when "Revan" was put in the game, it was horrible and I refuse to play that FP.

Actually, Revan's canon as male and light-side was established long before the game released. See here. That, or rather, those flashpoints aren't the only places Revan's history comes up, and while some references can be open to interpretation, they certainly aren't meant that way. Playing SWtOR means you'll just have to accept that canon. I don't like it either, but... *shrug*.

Modifié par Thomas Andresen, 30 juillet 2013 - 04:56 .

[JCAP]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

JCAP wrote...

Imagine a team making a RPG. They have 5 writters, 3 designers and 2 programmers.

Uh.. Game development teams are generally distributed differently. Even in BioWare, the writing teams are probably the smallest, by far, per IP. Not because of which element is more important, but because of workload. Game design and programming is a massive amount of work. Ask any number of indie developers who's learned that the hard way.

And you also forgot artists.

You know, sometimes I get the sensation that people know what my point is, but they ignore it anyway just they can be right about something.

*sigh* Yes, I know that development teams are not like that and that was a poor example etc. They have artists, 3d designers, programmers, testers, writers, directors, animators, etc. That was just an example to show that the team has a limited number of people and time and they need to divide their focus on different things.

And yes, I am aware of the amount of work, otherwise I wouldn't have the notion of game development and this topic wouldn't even exist.

Modifié par JCAP, 31 juillet 2013 - 11:06 .

[filetemo]

I'd rather have a less derp story

Oh you said "deep"... sorry

[DarthLaxian]

JCAP wrote...

I was reading some articles about western rpg's and all talked about this topic: more options = less plot or vice versa.

2 excelent examples are The Witcher and The Elder Scrolls.

The witcher restrain us to one gender and one race and it has less decisions and choices compared to Dragon Age or Elder S., but as consequence, it has an excelent backstory, plot, immersion, etc.

Elder Scrolls it's much more open ended compared to Dragon Age, it let's us do things our way, doesn't restrain us in any way and we can complete quests the way we want; we almost have infinite choices. But as a consequence, the story isn't that impressive, even of the main quests. I am not saying it's bad, because it's not, but it is cliche.


So, Dragon Agers, what road would you prefer Dragon Age Inquisition should walk? Should it be more restrained but with more plot or more open ended but with less plot?



In my opinion, they should try to offer more options and choices. For example, I would like to see interruption choices like in Mass Effect, or choices to refuse to take one side or another. (I always wanted to say this to Orsino and Meredith: "kill yourselves, I don't care, I will make some popcorn while you're at it"


Edit:

I am not asking if Dragon Age should become exclusively this or that, I am asking if it should become a little more this or that.

if i take your opening post, then i would say:

Balance Skyrim (not very deep and immersive plot IMHO) and the witcher and place them on opposit sides and place the new Dragon Age square in the middle (best of both worlds IMHO)

meaning:

none of those restrictions (like default male character, less decisions etc.) and not as much "freedome" (i could say boredome as i thought Skyrim was boring - the main-quest at least IMHO)

also i kind of hate comparing Dragon Age with those games (i do it myself, i know *hangs his head in shame*) because IMHO Dragon Age is much better (at least DA:O - give it's graphics some polish and it blows the witcher out of the water IMHO...which is something i hope DA:I will do as well (even with the new Witcher game))

greetings LAX

[Nefla]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Nefla wrote...

I agree, I think vague references and no one knowing what really happened is much better than a forced canon. I liked how they handled Revan in the Revanite and sealed vault parts of SWtOR since no default was given, but later when "Revan" was put in the game, it was horrible and I refuse to play that FP.

Actually, Revan's canon as male and light-side was established long before the game released. See here. That, or rather, those flashpoints aren't the only places Revan's history comes up, and while some references can be open to interpretation, they certainly aren't meant that way. Playing SWtOR means you'll just have to accept that canon. I don't like it either, but... *shrug*.

I know, but when has EU ever affected a core franchise in that way before? To me it was always just EU, I hate that they put it in the game and I will never accept it.

[JCAP]

DarthLaxian wrote...

JCAP wrote...

I was reading some articles about western rpg's and all talked about this topic: more options = less plot or vice versa.

2 excelent examples are The Witcher and The Elder Scrolls.

The witcher restrain us to one gender and one race and it has less decisions and choices compared to Dragon Age or Elder S., but as consequence, it has an excelent backstory, plot, immersion, etc.

Elder Scrolls it's much more open ended compared to Dragon Age, it let's us do things our way, doesn't restrain us in any way and we can complete quests the way we want; we almost have infinite choices. But as a consequence, the story isn't that impressive, even of the main quests. I am not saying it's bad, because it's not, but it is cliche.


So, Dragon Agers, what road would you prefer Dragon Age Inquisition should walk? Should it be more restrained but with more plot or more open ended but with less plot?



In my opinion, they should try to offer more options and choices. For example, I would like to see interruption choices like in Mass Effect, or choices to refuse to take one side or another. (I always wanted to say this to Orsino and Meredith: "kill yourselves, I don't care, I will make some popcorn while you're at it"


Edit:

I am not asking if Dragon Age should become exclusively this or that, I am asking if it should become a little more this or that.

if i take your opening post, then i would say:

Balance Skyrim (not very deep and immersive plot IMHO) and the witcher and place them on opposit sides and place the new Dragon Age square in the middle (best of both worlds IMHO)

meaning:

none of those restrictions (like default male character, less decisions etc.) and not as much "freedome" (i could say boredome as i thought Skyrim was boring - the main-quest at least IMHO)

also i kind of hate comparing Dragon Age with those games (i do it myself, i know *hangs his head in shame*) because IMHO Dragon Age is much better (at least DA:O - give it's graphics some polish and it blows the witcher out of the water IMHO...which is something i hope DA:I will do as well (even with the new Witcher game))

greetings LAX

Between those 3, I prefer witcher 2 because of the gameplay. It's more active and engaging but we still have to use some kind of strategy.

I usually don't like the traditional RPG gameplay like Dragon Age, but my friend insisted that I should play and I ended up loving it just because of the immersion and investment they put into the characters.

But yeah, Dragon Age content and choices are somewhere between witcher and TES.

BTW, you use IMHO too much 

[Plaintiff]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Seboist wrote...
It's clear which are the cheap fapbait games.

The ones that reward you with a pin-up to peruse at your leisure?

You forgot to call him a bigot.

As much as you might like to pretend otherwise in order to try and discredit my opinion, I don't throw the term "bigot" around when it's not warranted, or even every time that it is warranted.

Accusing DA2 of being a "cheap fapbait game" when it shows no nudity at all is utter nonsense, but it's not necessarily bigoted nonsense.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 31 juillet 2013 - 12:32 .

[ComfortablyNumb]

Hm. I don't think comparison with Witcher is a good one. There were well established characters/world/lore years before anyone even thought about making it a game. So obviously, it reduced choices, unlike when devs are working on a game written from scratch.

[JCAP]

mrufka_z wrote...

Hm. I don't think comparison with Witcher is a good one. There were well established characters/world/lore years before anyone even thought about making it a game. So obviously, it reduced choices, unlike when devs are working on a game written from scratch.

And that's why it has more detailed scenarios and deep stories. And thus the comparison.