177 réponses à ce sujet

[3DandBeyond]

iakus wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

See, this is where there's a big problem with statements made once.

I, for example, will bounce around an idea for a while, but at some point, I very well will likely think, "eh... maybe not.  Let's try something else."  I'll do this a hundred times from first draft to final copy.

Could a wasteland galaxy been Walters intent at one point in the development process?  Absolutely.  Does that statement mean that it was ALWAYS his intent from start to finish?  Perhaps... but I think it's a dangerous assumption to reach on that statement alone.

See, he said the galactic wasteland thing only a month before the game's release.  This wasn't an idea that was being tossed around.  THe endings were a done deal.

Yes and it was in complete agreement with the Arrival, Desperate Measures, and the Final Hours app.  Everything that was said or implied pointed to a destroyed galaxy, in game and out.  It was only after fan backlash that the explosions of the relays began to be retconned on Twitter.  The explosions weren't that big or whatever, but all of the in-game science about the relays said that even a rupture of a relay would be devastating for a star system and we were shown that they were all "ruptured" since they exploded.

If that statement had not been made when it was and had not been in reference to what DLC they'd be promoting and had not been backed up by other things in the game and that they said and wrote, then sure it could have been pure speculation.  But this was Walters who wrote the Arrival and who showed what an exploding relay would do to a star system.  An explosion is an explosion.  I don't care if you hit something with a bat and that causes it to blow up or if you light a match by it.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 03 août 2013 - 09:40 .

[David7204]

Not really. There's no real reason to assume that the Reapers breaking apart from the Crucible would have the same consequences of them being blown up.

[3DandBeyond]

David7204 wrote...

Not really. There's no real reason to assume that the Reapers breaking apart from the Crucible would have the same consequences of them being blown up.

The original endings don't show relays just breaking apart as if a glass was shattered.  They show them breaking apart as if a glass full of explosive material was caused to explode.

If they explode which was clearly seen in the videos of the relays then how they exploded or what caused it doesn't matter.

This is a silly debate anyway.  It was obvious to people what was being shown.  It was part of the outcry.  And it was what he had said.  And Desperate Measures still explains what would happen.  Debate it with yourself if you want.  They started along a line of retconning that was capped off with Leviathan to try and explain an ending they'd already written and shown.  Personally, I find it flawed in that it lacks diversity in and of itself.  I know you'll tear that apart too.  Have fun.  You must be terribly bored to be so bitter today.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 03 août 2013 - 09:45 .

[David7204]

If you really want an ending and story with meaningful heroism, hard science and tactics, and choices that matter, I should be your best friend on this forum. I've made dozens of posts defending and suggesting various elements that could have been incorporated into the game to improve it. Ideas that don't suck. Frankly, I'm the only person I can think of that defends conventional victory without resorting to some magic weapon or tactic. And although I don't have solutions for everything, I'm confident I have some general ideas that could work very well with enough hammering.  A new Reaper motive. A stronger plot for ME 2. Some tidbits on conventional victory.

Modifié par David7204, 03 août 2013 - 09:52 .

[3DandBeyond]

David7204 wrote...

If you really want an ending and story with meaningful heroism, hard science and tactics, and choices that matter, I should be your best friend on this forum. I've made dozens of posts defending and suggesting various elements that could have been incorporated into the game to improve it. Ideas that don't suck. Frankly, I'm the only person I can think of that defends conventional victory without resorting to some magic weapon or tactic. And although I don't have solutions for everything, I'm confident I have some general ideas that could work very well with enough hammering.  A new Reaper motive. A stronger plot for ME 2. Some tidbits on conventional victory.

Wow you're the only one eh?  Except no you aren't.  I've read countless ideas from others on how it should or could have been achieved.  And it was you and not me that formed the intent to be argumentative.  You've called my posts ridiculous and said a one off idea of mine sucked.  Yeah, you're my bestest friend ever.  And this AFTER I took great pains in months past to answer you in PMs and discuss things with you in a decent manner.  You decided to make things personal instantly by insulting me for some reason and because you didn't read a post I made fully.  I'm sorry but at this point your ideas don't interest me. 

I've read plenty of valid ones that talked about victories (and I don't mean conventional because that implies pew pew with guns as I've said).  I liked ME2 and don't find fault with it.  The fault will always exist with ME3.  If ME2 needed to be explained, ME3 should have tied it up.  I didn't care about the reaper motive but I was given enough of one in ME2 and they could have left it at that.  I liked mysterious arrogant monsters that just wanted us dead.  Like big Predators in space that do things because they can and need no other real reason.

I'm so glad you have ideas that don't suck but apparently I do.  I'm really glad.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 03 août 2013 - 10:00 .

[David7204]

Maybe you could copy and paste a few of those ideas. A sentence is all it takes. Brevity is wit.

[spirosz]

I hate to say it, but nothing is going to change and it's best to either stick to what you find positive about the game(s) and cherish those moments and move on from the negative. To be stuck (even if you say you're not, you post expresses that you are), just doesn't seem fair for yourself. Mind you, this series had me very attached, I wouldn't of wrote any Jack tributes if I didn't feel connected to the series and as much as I would love to fall back in love with the series, I'm not going to FORCE myself to reach that point.

[David7204]

Jack tributes, huh?

[spirosz]

David7204 wrote...

Jack tributes, huh?

Yes?  My sig.  

[3DandBeyond]

David7204 wrote...

Maybe you could copy and paste a few of those ideas. A sentence is all it takes. Brevity is wit.

Why when you will only insult.  Apparently something bad must have happened to you today because you are bent on an argument.  I did discuss such things in PMs with you and I don't have all the links to the many threads I posted in and it's moot anyway.  I'll save my ideas for my writing and for other projects.  No one wants to hear them here and I have some that do want to read them when they're complete.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 03 août 2013 - 10:23 .

[3DandBeyond]

spirosz wrote...

I hate to say it, but nothing is going to change and it's best to either stick to what you find positive about the game(s) and cherish those moments and move on from the negative. To be stuck (even if you say you're not, you post expresses that you are), just doesn't seem fair for yourself. Mind you, this series had me very attached, I wouldn't of wrote any Jack tributes if I didn't feel connected to the series and as much as I would love to fall back in love with the series, I'm not going to FORCE myself to reach that point.

No spirosz as I said with this game I'm stuck but not in life.  One person has sought to start some kind of conflict here with me so yes it's gotten a bit more emotional than intended but I've only recently come back here to take a look.  And mostly that was to answer messages from friends and not to belabor the game.  What has been done is all there is.  And my statements really are meant to convey a feeling to those other devs (that do) come here for thoughts.  In fact, some other games have oblique references to things done in this one-even portions of things in Halo 4 do this and get it right.

I don't feel the need to fall back in love with this series.  I love it for what it was.  I have MEHEM for all that it wasn't or what someone didn't want it to be.  I never looked for perfection.  I looked for conclusion.  I'm not looking for BW to give it, not asking for more.  Just expressing a wish that in the future someone will carry on and make games like these and remember what made them great even with all the warts.  My takeaway from this is sometimes it isn't even about a great story but it is always about the characters and you are meant to care about them or to even hate them-the ending should reflect that the writers did too and that ending should feature an appropriate send off.  I know this game does not have that.  The hope is that others will learn from this.

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

Maybe you could copy and paste a few of those ideas. A sentence is all it takes. Brevity is wit.

Sounds like it's about time for you to put your ideas for a detailed new ending down in its own thread, and we'll see where the forum takes it. Educate us, David. 

[David7204]

I don't have any ideas for a non-conventional ending. I have a few for some other stuff, though.

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

I don't have any ideas for a non-conventional ending. I have a few for some other stuff, though.

Go for it. Like I said, I think it's about time, with the way you reference your ideas in other discussions. 

Modifié par dreamgazer, 03 août 2013 - 11:27 .

[chemiclord]

Ah yes... slapping down David7204... the one thing that the entire BSN can get behind!

[AresKeith]

chemiclord wrote...

Ah yes... slapping down David7204... the one thing that the entire BSN can get behind!

Well David pretty much sets himself up for it 

[AlanC9]

3DandBeyond wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Not really. There's no real reason to assume that the Reapers breaking apart from the Crucible would have the same consequences of them being blown up.

The original endings don't show relays just breaking apart as if a glass was shattered.  They show them breaking apart as if a glass full of explosive material was caused to explode.

If they explode which was clearly seen in the videos of the relays then how they exploded or what caused it doesn't matter.

Though we see the Citadel Relay explode first, and all it does is blow the Wards off of the Citadel. An explosion, sure, but a fizzle compared to Arrival.

But yeah; silly topic.

[AlanC9]

dreamgazer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I don't have any ideas for a non-conventional ending. I have a few for some other stuff, though.

Go for it. Like I said, I think it's about time, with the way you reference your ideas in other discussions. 

Anyone who wants to push pet theories really should have links to them in a sig, if only for his own convenience.

[3DandBeyond]

Here's an interesting thing I never saw before and was just sent. A link to things as Walters saw them.

http://www.p4rgaming...ferent-endings/

In this he basically says the devs didn't know players wouldn't like the endings (but in other articles they clearly stated before release that they did know this). He says they never set about to give us variety in the endings and actually worked to give us all the exact same ending, but they felt we'd use our own take on them to imagine we'd gotten different endings. Yeah, that's exactly what they said the endings would be--all the same.

He says they never thought about the ending until right before creating it and didn't think the ending mattered. There it is and that's what is obvious. The disconnect is because fans in playing games do go for endings as well the interim play along the way. The promise was that in this game the endings would be different so that repeat play would be meaningful and he is completely verifying that the only meaning the endings had were what we gave to them. They expected us to basically fill in the blanks because they'd given no thought to it at all.


And he's wrong that the best endings leave you questioning what the writer meant. That depends on the genre, on the story, and on so many other things. The implication of his statement is that you could do this with any story and it would be better and it's not true at all. And it was definitely not anything that all those devs said the ending would be. In fact, it was said that it would answer all the questions. I think Mike Gamble said that. I just wonder what questions they think it answered.

And what's also funny about that is that if it's great to write an ending that leaves fans guessing what the writer meant, it still would be a good idea for the writer to at least have some meaning in mind, even if it isn't expressed in the story.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 04 août 2013 - 03:58 .

[3DandBeyond]

StreetMagic wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Here's an interesting thing I never saw before and was just sent. A link to things as Walters saw them.

http://www.p4rgaming...ferent-endings/

In this he basically says the devs didn't know players wouldn't like the endings (but in other articles they clearly stated before release that they did know this). He says they never set about to give us variety in the endings and actually worked to give us all the exact same ending, but they felt we'd use our own take on them to imagine we'd gotten different endings. Yeah, that's exactly what they said the endings would be--all the same..

You can't trust anything they say anymore. There are different messages for each day of the week.

Casey Hudson said after release that he meant the endings to be "divisive" and "polarizing". He meant for all this to happen, apparently.

Exactly and you're right.  Merely putting it out there for those who somehow think the writers actually sat down and created this with some message in mind.  My point always has been that they intentionally did this and hoped fans would connect some invisible dots and say it's great-they wanted fans to speculate on an ending because they had no idea how to create one.  Others have asked in threads if the writers ever discussed what they meant and here it is-they meant nothing and expected us to imagine what they had in mind.  Impossible if they had nothing in mind.

And yes, it depends on what day of the week as far as what they believe.  The main reason I do come here is well to touch base with some friends, but also to get the thinking process started again.  I'm very lucky to be able to do both.

[dreamgazer]

Might want to look into this site a bit more, folks, before unleashing the knee-jerk reactions.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=play4real+satire#

[Iakus]

dreamgazer wrote...

Might want to look into this site a bit more, folks, before unleashing the knee-jerk reactions.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=play4real+satire#

It may be fake, but dang if it doesn't sound plausible.

[3DandBeyond]

dreamgazer wrote...

Might want to look into this site a bit more, folks, before unleashing the knee-jerk reactions.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=play4real+satire#

Yes perhaps so and I see it is intended to be satirical-thanks for that as well.  It is so that Mac Walters attended the event and was on the panel-it's listed in Writers Guild stuff.  As to the actual content well I guess not what he said, but it sure sounds like it could be, LOL. 

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 04 août 2013 - 05:20 .

[Cyberfrog81]

Yeah, that's how little faith we have in Walters... poor guy.