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[R2s Muse]

andy69156915 wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

FWIW, DG has said that the RoA was not illegal and Meredith had every right, in the absence of Elthina or the Divine, to call it. "Cullen's objection was not that her invocation of the Rite was illegal, it was that it was unjustified."

http://social.biowar...x/6901812&lf=8 about halfway down the page.

In Act 3, Ser Karras tells Hawke that Meredith has sent to Val Royeaux for the Right, presumably because Elthina wouldn't grant it to her.

Then obviously this is one of those times where word of god is wrong. In-game lore and lore from books and comics completely contradicts Gaider.

Well, DG does go on to say that there would later likely be consequences...  "Just because something is legal does not necessarily make it right or moral. I suspect what Cullen would have argued, given the chance, was that the Divine would never have agreed to the Rite of Annulment in this case. Anyone, even a Grand Cleric, would still be responsible for their actions in calling such a desperate measure after the fact."

Modifié par R2s Muse, 04 août 2013 - 02:57 .

[thats1evildude]

andy69156915 wrote...

Then obviously this is one of those times where word of god is wrong. In-game lore and lore from books and comics completely contradicts Gaider.

But there's not really a contradiction here. I've never seen ANYTHING in game that suggests the Right of Annulment can only be approved by either the Divine or a Grand Cleric. As far as I can tell, that responsibility rests solely with the Grand Cleric, and in her absence, the highest-ranking Chantry official in the area governed by a particular Circle of Magi.

Yes, under normal circumstances, the Knight-Commander could not have invoked the Right of Annulment without Elthina's consent, but her death made that a moot point.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 04 août 2013 - 03:04 .

[R2s Muse]

thats1evildude wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

Then obviously this is one of those times where word of god is wrong. In-game lore and lore from books and comics completely contradicts Gaider.

But there's not really a contradiction here. Yes, under normal circumstances, the Knight-Commander would have needed the approval of the highest-ranking Chantry official within the area governed by the Kirkwall Circle of Magi to invoke the Right, but with the death of Elthina, she graduated to that rank. 

Agree. I don't really see the contradiction either. Kinloch Hold was different because Greagoir didn't have the right to declare it, he needed his Grand Cleric's permission, whereas Meredith did have the legal right because Elthina was dead.

That being said... I do wonder what the Powers That Be would rule after the fact and what the consequences might have been for Meredith.

[Lord Raijin]

andy69156915 wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

FWIW, DG has said that the RoA was not illegal and Meredith had every right, in the absence of Elthina or the Divine, to call it. "Cullen's objection was not that her invocation of the Rite was illegal, it was that it was unjustified."

http://social.biowar...x/6901812&lf=8 about halfway down the page.

In Act 3, Ser Karras tells Hawke that Meredith has sent to Val Royeaux for the Right, presumably because Elthina wouldn't grant it to her.

Then obviously this is one of those times where word of god is wrong. In-game lore and lore from books and comics completely contradicts Gaider.

Yet you haven't provided 1 URL or the name of a book and page number to prove your point. The fact is the lead writer of Dragon Age essentinally told you you from one of his older post that you're wrong. Meredith was in legal right to delcare ROA during war that Anders caused. You can disagree all you want, but the fact is she was in LEGAL right to do it. Just accept it already.

I'm sure if Meredith was in the chantry at the time of the explosion that Cullen could issue ROA since he would now take control of Kirkwalls Templars. It's common sense

[thats1evildude]

Of course, "legal", "ethical" and "logical" are all totally separate things. Meredith's actions technically meet the first standard, but not the others.

[LolaLei]

Well, love him or hate him Cullen certainly sparks interesting thread topics!

[Lord Raijin]

thats1evildude wrote...

Of course, "legal", "ethical" and "logical" are all totally separate things. Meredith's actions technically meet the first standard, but not the others.

That is true. Meredith did not show logic nor ethicality when she delcared ROA. Their was no proof indicating that the circle was involved in the destruction of the chantry. Anders should take 100% to blame for it, and should be executed on spot for his brutal  crimes. Hawke should be arrested and interrogated. This is why Cullen step in and questioned Meredith actions.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 04 août 2013 - 04:15 .

[duckley]

The codex on the ROA in DAO indicates the Grand Cleric can declare the ROA. I believe that Greagoir had sent word to Denerim to seek the OK to do it. There certainly could be other options in the event the Grand Cleric is unavailable as in the case in DA2.

[thats1evildude]

I'm imagining this situation where a group of Starkhaven mages declare war on the Chantry and take the Grand Cleric hostage. But the local Knight-Commander is forced to stand by, saying "Dammit! Our hands are tied! Without the Grand Cleric's authorization, we can't touch those mages!"

At which point the Knight-Captain enters the room and suggests that they bring in that one Kirkwall city guard who plays by his own rules, Donnen Brennicoveck.

And now you know the plot of Hard in Hightown II: Siege Harder.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 04 août 2013 - 04:53 .

[CuriousArtemis]

thats1evildude wrote...

I'm imagining this situation where a group of Starkhaven mages declare war on the Chantry and take the Grand Cleric hostage. But the local Knight-Commander is forced to stand by, saying "Dammit! Our hands are tied! Without the Grand Cleric's authorization, we can't touch those mages!"

At which point the Knight-Captain enters the room and suggests that they bring in that one Kirkwall city guard who plays by his own rules, Donnen Brennicoveck.

And now you know the plot of Hard in Hightown II: Siege Harder.

I admit, I LOL'ed 

[andy6915]

thats1evildude wrote...

I'm imagining this situation where a group of Starkhaven mages declare war on the Chantry and take the Grand Cleric hostage. But the local Knight-Commander is forced to stand by, saying "Dammit! Our hands are tied! Without the Grand Cleric's authorization, we can't touch those mages!"

At which point the Knight-Captain enters the room and suggests that they bring in that one Kirkwall city guard who plays by his own rules, Donnen Brennicoveck.

And now you know the plot of Hard in Hightown II: Siege Harder.

As Duckley said above you. I have stated "Divine and Grand Cleric" in my posts, not just the Divine (it wouldn't make sense either if it was only the Divine who could, the circle in DAO was going to Denerim for the right and the Divine most definitely does not reside in Denerim). If the hostage thing really happened, there would be dozens of Grand Clerics to choose from who could authorize it just as legally.

Modifié par andy69156915, 04 août 2013 - 05:23 .

[wolfhowwl]

R2s Muse wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

Then obviously this is one of those times where word of god is wrong. In-game lore and lore from books and comics completely contradicts Gaider.

But there's not really a contradiction here. Yes, under normal circumstances, the Knight-Commander would have needed the approval of the highest-ranking Chantry official within the area governed by the Kirkwall Circle of Magi to invoke the Right, but with the death of Elthina, she graduated to that rank. 

Agree. I don't really see the contradiction either. Kinloch Hold was different because Greagoir didn't have the right to declare it, he needed his Grand Cleric's permission, whereas Meredith did have the legal right because Elthina was dead.

That being said... I do wonder what the Powers That Be would rule after the fact and what the consequences might have been for Meredith.

Meredith would have been fine. The First Enchanter turning into a grotesque monstrosity in a horrific blood magic ritual is pretty damning for the mages.

[Trolldrool]

I liked Cullen a little, I admit, probably because of how accepting he is in the beginning of the mage origin, which makes his transformation due to his mental and emotional torture all the sadder, but he was far from the most interesting templar in the game. Greagoir was interesting, appearing like a complete douche at first, but later showing that he trusts the First Enchanter explicitly, since he will accept his word that everything is okay, which makes their professional relationship a healthy one.

Ser Bryant was interesting, because even when learning that you're traveling without templar supervision and/or that Morrigan is an apostate, he chooses to dedicate his time to protecting the refugees rather than instigate a mage hunt. That made me intrigued about where he comes from. What parts of his past taught him have such different priorities?

Ser Otto in the elven Alienage had something of the same. He was blind and he was hunting for mages, but he was the only one who seemed to care that the elves were being victims of blood magic a demons.

I liked who Cullen became in DA2. And I could kind of understand where his zeal came from since he was one of the few who wasn't being a douche because of Chantry propaganda, but for having actually witnessed and personally suffered the worst mage extremes. He was sort of the reluctant voice of reason in a hive of fanatics. But he's not that memorable compared to other Ferelden templars in my opinion.

[Urazz]

thats1evildude wrote...

But he was the only one who actually fought her. And it was he who made the decision to refuse Meredith's orders.

The other templars, they could be excused by the fact that they were just following Cullen's lead.

andy69156915 wrote...

Turned on his own? You realize that just about every military in the world allows you to disobey orders if they conflict with the law, right?

Sure, sure. But there's a gulf between what's allowed and what's condoned.

At that point Meredith showed that she was no longer fit for command.  You are allowed to disobey orders from a leading officer if they are shown to be compromised and unfit for command such as Meredith was.

thats1evildude wrote...

I'm imagining this situation where a group of Starkhaven mages declare war on the Chantry and take the Grand Cleric hostage. But the local Knight-Commander is forced to stand by, saying "Dammit! Our hands are tied! Without the Grand Cleric's authorization, we can't touch those mages!"

At which point the Knight-Captain enters the room and suggests that they bring in that one Kirkwall city guard who plays by his own rules, Donnen Brennicoveck.

And now you know the plot of Hard in Hightown II: Siege Harder.

Seriously though, Unless the Starkhaven mages' Circle is still up and standing, then I don't see how it would be needed to declare the Right of Annulment since the mages are apostates until they are submit to the Chantry and return to the Circle or are killed.

Modifié par Urazz, 04 août 2013 - 12:13 .

[mp911]

if cullen is part if the group i hope we get too see him fighting lyrium addiction

[R2s Muse]

wolfhowwl wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

Then obviously this is one of those times where word of god is wrong. In-game lore and lore from books and comics completely contradicts Gaider.

But there's not really a contradiction here. Yes, under normal circumstances, the Knight-Commander would have needed the approval of the highest-ranking Chantry official within the area governed by the Kirkwall Circle of Magi to invoke the Right, but with the death of Elthina, she graduated to that rank. 

Agree. I don't really see the contradiction either. Kinloch Hold was different because Greagoir didn't have the right to declare it, he needed his Grand Cleric's permission, whereas Meredith did have the legal right because Elthina was dead.

That being said... I do wonder what the Powers That Be would rule after the fact and what the consequences might have been for Meredith.

Meredith would have been fine. The First Enchanter turning into a grotesque monstrosity in a horrific blood magic ritual is pretty damning for the mages.

I wonder about that, though. Yeah, Orsino was or became a blood mage. But, again, he was just one dude. I'd like to think that when cooler heads prevail, that also wouldn't be enough of a reason.

You could probably make a whole court room drama out of the investigation. LOL Complete with sneaky conspiracy that results in Cassandra getting only part of the truth.

[Trolldrool]

R2s Muse wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

Meredith would have been fine. The First Enchanter turning into a grotesque monstrosity in a horrific blood magic ritual is pretty damning for the mages.

I wonder about that, though. Yeah, Orsino was or became a blood mage. But, again, he was just one dude. I'd like to think that when cooler heads prevail, that also wouldn't be enough of a reason.

You could probably make a whole court room drama out of the investigation. LOL Complete with sneaky conspiracy that results in Cassandra getting only part of the truth.

The fear of a single extremist can silence the voices of a thousand moderates. Unfortunate, but throughout history, old and recent, a single person doing something incomprehensibly shocking can make even the most reasonable person irrational.

[duckley]

When did Meredith call for the ROA... I recall it being AFTER Orsino and his minions were defeated. The immediate danger was over. It was a lets kill all the Mages just in case scenario, if I am not mistaken.

Cullen felt it was not justified. He obviously learned from Greagoir and his previous experience, when he wanted to "kill them all" just after he was released from Uldreds torture chamber. Shows some growth on Cullens part.

[JCAP]

Greetings,

I just transfered 400 thousand dollars to Gaider bank account in the agreement he would have Cullen killed during DA:I.

Hope no one has a problem with that.

Sincerely,

Someone very rich

[ilikesocks]

JCAP wrote...

Greetings,

I just transfered 400 thousand dollars to Gaider bank account in the agreement he would have Cullen killed during DA:I.

Hope no one has a problem with that.

Sincerely,

Someone very rich

Noooooo! *Shakes fist at screen*
Srsly, Cullen better not friggin' die in DAI, lol. I would have to come find you and trip you the next time you are about to walk down some stairs.  :innocent:

[ilikesocks]

mp911 wrote...

if cullen is part if the group i hope we get too see him fighting lyrium addiction

Why would you want that?

[R2s Muse]

duckley wrote...

When did Meredith call for the ROA... I recall it being AFTER Orsino and his minions were defeated. The immediate danger was over. It was a lets kill all the Mages just in case scenario, if I am not mistaken.

She invokes it right after the Chantry blows up, well before Orsino goes Harvester. http://youtu.be/k6Yefu9VNrQ?t=3m51s

[duckley]

R2s Muse wrote...

duckley wrote...

When did Meredith call for the ROA... I recall it being AFTER Orsino and his minions were defeated. The immediate danger was over. It was a lets kill all the Mages just in case scenario, if I am not mistaken.

She invokes it right after the Chantry blows up, well before Orsino goes Harvester. http://youtu.be/k6Yefu9VNrQ?t=3m51s

OK  thanks - I really need to replay DA2. But that makes it all the more interesting I suppose. She wants to invoke the ROA then before she has all the facts...makes Cullen's caution more justified I suppose.

[Lord Raijin]

JCAP wrote...

Greetings,

I just transfered 400 thousand dollars to Gaider bank account in the agreement he would have Cullen killed during DA:I.

Hope no one has a problem with that.

Sincerely,

Someone very rich

Thank you for my daily medicine of laughter

[mp911]

ilikesocks wrote...

mp911 wrote...

if cullen is part if the group i hope we get too see him fighting lyrium addiction

Why would you want that?

would make an interesting storie, devellop the character more and your relation with him as you help him or not

 since the chantry had the "official" monopol of the lyrium trade, templars who have taken the lyrium for years, might feel the side affect of no more lyrium, they could turn to black market, get more aggressive (depending their addiction).....