195 réponses à ce sujet

[sandalisthemaker]

Okay, so we are all familiar with the drastic changes made to Flemeth's character model from DAO to DA2.   
Observe:
 
The haggard, wild-haired, wrinkled old woman of DAO.  This look fit her eccentric, giant ham-with-a-deadly-undercurrent vibe perfectly. I tend to excuse her curvaceous, enormous-breasted body as a result of limited resources, since every female has the same body (Although that the default female body looks this way is another matter entirely).


And here: her DA2 incarnation, complete with cleavage. She also shows a bit of thigh-skin to boot.

Now one can argue that Flemeth is a shapeshifter, and chose to appear before Hawke and co. in this manner in order to display her power through a more imposing form, ( I was fine with the horn hair, for example, and thought it served to cement her draconic vibe).  However, this line of thought just comes across as a convenient excuse for the art team to sexify her.  Sure, she still has some wrinkles around her eyes, but her face is otherwise smooth, and her jaw no longer shows even a hint of sagging skin. Then there is the cleavage.  Was that really necessary? 

The fact that (within the timeline of the game) she "chose" to look like this for Hawke and then went back to her wrinkled old woman form for her final meeting with the Warden is just bizarre when you think about it.

Flemeth may not even be human at all. She seems to be shaping up to be an all-powerful Eldritch Abomination whose machinations can never be fully comprehended.  Does she really need to be cheapened in such a manner? Can't she be allowed to be a powerful, important female character without being sexy?  

So my hope for DA:I is that she appears more similar to her DAO form. Flemeth is a powerful, intimidating, intelligent, and  manipulative chess master. It is these qualities, and not her cleavage, that need to be enhanced.

[Battlebloodmage]

You are being too sensitive here. All I could think of when I saw Flemmeth is how majestic, if she looks like an old hag after turning back into a dragon, I wouldn't be impressed



Her appearance in DAO is more like a deception, and in DA2, it's her actual look. Can't a woman be both pretty and powerful? This seems to be pretty nitpicking at this point. Although if the purpose is to attract straight males, there are better ways of doing it instead of appeal of a small groups of guys who are into old women. You also seem to forget about Meredith, who is a knight-commander. A powerful figure who dresses in full armor.

[sandalisthemaker]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

Her appearance in DAO is more like a deception, and in DA2, it's her actual look. Can't a woman be both pretty and powerful? This seems to be pretty nitpicking at this point.

Or, neither of them could be her actual look.  She might not be human after all.  But I'm talking about what we, the viewer are being presented with. 

Yes, we see pretty and powerful women all the time in media. More often than not they are shown as pretty (sexy to be specific). I'm not nitpicking, just pointing out way too common tropes.

[OLDIRTYBARON]

There are a couple of ways you can look at this situation.

1.) Varric is telling a story. During the prologue, before Cassandra calls bull****, Bethany has huge knockers. Like, real big. Everything about DA2 from the style of combat (such as raining men and exploding bodies) lends credence to the idea that while what we're seeing is the truth, it is also highly stylized and exaggerated. In other words, she looks this way because Varric pictured her this way.

2.) Flemeth is a powerful witch that has lived for centuries through nefarious means. Is it a wonder she chooses to inhabit young, beautiful women? If you were an all powerful demigod, why wouldn't you want to dress like her? Despite the fact that Flemeth in DA2 has cleavage, she's not "sexy." She's imposing. Intimidating. Her sexuality isn't meant to appeal, it's meant to frighten. This is an incredibly powerful, domineering witch. Her lack of wrinkles could be a stylistic choice (as DA2 on the whole looks a lot closer to the cartoon-y concept art than any other Bioware game), or it could just be that she's an ancient hag who just looks good because genetics.

3.) Nobody can be ugly in visual mediums unless the plot demands they be ugly. Flemeth was never hideous or unattractive in Origins, she was merely plain looking. I think her commoner appearance in DA:O had more to do with time/budget constraints than Bioware not wanting to give her any personal fashion flare. Hell, even Loghain didn't get a unique armour, and he's a major villain. Consider all of the outfits in DA:O (aside from Cailin's armour) can be worn in game by any NPC. Clothing, armour, whatever. Every model can be used by the player or a companion. It stands to reason that when Bioware decided to move toward defined looks for NPCs and companions, they decided to revisit Flemeth and make her stand out as the Queen Witch she is.

Also, I find it odd that you as the OP think sexiness is inherently demeaning to her character. What's wrong with being the most powerful thing in Thedas and looking good while you're at it?

[Bionuts]

You are sexually aroused by her, but that's not a universal feel. I am certainly not attracted to 60+ year old women. If you are, so be it.

Flemeth in DA2 is majestic, frightening, and mysterious. Those are my feelings.

[thats1evildude]

In DAO, she was playing her cards close to the chest. She was initally passing her off as a crazy old swamp-dwelling hermit that happened to have some knowledge of the arcane arts. She wanted the Warden to dismiss her as harmless and, if possible, to be paying attention to her lovely daughter, not herself.

In DA2, she appeared to Hawke after swooping in as a dragon and slaughtering a group of darkspawn. She was dressing to make an impression on a group of refugees who already had a pretty good idea of her power level, and she went with the "mysterious witch-queen" look.

Considering that Morrigan and Yavana both favour similar attire, Flemeth obviously has some specific ideas about what a Witch of the Wilds should look like: a dark, over-sexed vamp. Which is entirely fitting with the whole "kidnaps men and rapes them to death" image. At heart, Flemeth's a bit of a showoff.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 30 juillet 2013 - 02:51 .

[Battlebloodmage]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

Her appearance in DAO is more like a deception, and in DA2, it's her actual look. Can't a woman be both pretty and powerful? This seems to be pretty nitpicking at this point.

Or, neither of them could be her actual look.  She might not be human after all.  But I'm talking about what we, the viewer are being presented with. 

Yes, we see pretty and powerful women all the time in media. More often than not they are shown as pretty (sexy to be specific). I'm not nitpicking, just pointing out way too common tropes.

And there are women who like to be portrayed as beautiful. I don't think you can speak for them. If I recalled correctly, there are a few threads asking for more sexy and beautiful clothing by females. Also, during no point in the scene does Flemeth acts seductive or tiltilating. I would have issues if Flemmeth appearing while dressing in a bikini. There are also men who are being portrayed as handsome and sexy as well. The common trope is more like you can't have ugly people in lead roles. There are plenty of sexist games out there, but Dragon Age would be pretty low on that priority list. 

[sandalisthemaker]

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...

Also, I find it odd that you as the OP think sexiness is inherently demeaning to her character. What's wrong with being the most powerful thing in Thedas and looking good while you're at it?

I don't find attractiveness to be an inherently bad thing. It's just that the change in Flemeth's look just seems unnecessary to her as a character.  Your points are all well and good, but I would classify them under the convenient excuses I mentioned in the OP. 

[sandalisthemaker]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

And there are women who like to be portrayed as beautiful. I don't think you can speak for them. If I recalled correctly, there are a few threads asking for more sexy and beautiful clothing by females. Also, during no point in the scene does Flemeth acts seductive or tiltilating. I would have issues if Flemmeth appearing while dressing in a bikini. There are also men who are being portrayed as handsome and sexy as well. The common trope is more like you can't have ugly people in lead roles. There are plenty of sexist games out there, but Dragon Age would be pretty low on that priority list. 

If a woman wants to her character to be beautiful/sexy, then that's her prerogative. 

Flemeth's slow walk towards the viewer with the camera panning slowly up her skin-tight clothed frame was meant to be somewhat seductive. If not to Hawke, then to the viewer. Whether or not you or someone else personally found it seductive or titilating, it was still there regardless.  
I don't think Dragon Age is a sexist game. I just think that Flemeth does not need the sexy treatment with so many other attractive women already in the games. Variety and such.

Modifié par sandalisthemaker, 30 juillet 2013 - 02:58 .

[ilikesocks]

Maybe Flemeth pulled a 'Hocus Pocus' and stole away some little children that she then sucked the life out of to make herself appear younger/sexier. Just a theory. XD

[Mello]

ilikesocks wrote...

Maybe Flemeth pulled a 'Hocus Pocus' and stole away some little children that she then sucked the life out of to make herself appear younger/sexier. Just a theory. XD

I approve. 

[sandalisthemaker]

LindsayLohan wrote...

You have to be kidding me sandal. This is reaching.

No. I am serious.
How so?

[devSin]

She looked fine. The boob window probably wasn't necessary, but it didn't really bother me.

Her facial structure is mostly the same (she looks a little fuller, and slightly more Kate Mulgrew-ish, in DA2). And she didn't look like anything in Origins; other than the face, she has a generic costume and a mostly generic hairstyle, so it's not like there was any particular appearance to preserve.

I think the style closely matching the features of the dragon she initially appears as was a nice touch. I'm not bothered if they keep her style or tone it down a bit in the future (or give her several appearances, as befits the situation).

The Architect also didn't look anything at all like David described, and it had nothing to do with "sexification". I'm sure you can make a case against having something so blatantly ostentatious, but that's really between David and the art team.

Modifié par devSin, 30 juillet 2013 - 03:17 .

[wolfhowwl]

Dragon Age 2: "Darker, sexier, better."

Here is some DA2 concept art of Flemeth that I think looked much better than what we got.


http://mattrhodesart...ind-scenes.html

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 30 juillet 2013 - 03:17 .

[Battlebloodmage]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

And there are women who like to be portrayed as beautiful. I don't think you can speak for them. If I recalled correctly, there are a few threads asking for more sexy and beautiful clothing by females. Also, during no point in the scene does Flemeth acts seductive or tiltilating. I would have issues if Flemmeth appearing while dressing in a bikini. There are also men who are being portrayed as handsome and sexy as well. The common trope is more like you can't have ugly people in lead roles. There are plenty of sexist games out there, but Dragon Age would be pretty low on that priority list. 

If a woman wants to her character to be beautiful/sexy, then that's her prerogative. 

Flemeth's slow walk towards the viewer with the camera panning slowly up her skin-tight clothed frame was meant to be somewhat seductive. If not to Hawke, then to the viewer. Whether or not you or someone else personally found it seductive or titilating, it was still there regardless.  
I don't think Dragon Age is a sexist game. I just think that Flemeth does not need the sexy treatment with so many other attractive women already in the games. Variety and such.

Like you said, whether it's sexy or fashion; it's up to the player to decide. While it's offensive to make females into sex object, I'd say that it's equally offensive to tell women what they can and can't wear. How do you know Flemeth wouldn't dress like that? If we were to believe in Morrigan's story, she seduced men, used them and killed them. She also raised Morrigan to act the same way as well. It would be in her personality to dress like that. 

[Steelcan]

She can appear however she wants to

[daaaav]

Flemeth makes a habit of grooming attractive young women as her "daughters" before using their bodies to retain her youthful appearance. Even if she can change her appearance, this behavior certainly reveals a little vanity does it not?

Is the fact that fictional characters are idealised such a big issue anyway?

[sandalisthemaker]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

Like you said, whether it's sexy or fashion; it's up to the player to decide. While it's offensive to make females into sex object, I'd say that it's equally offensive to tell women what they can and can't wear. How do you know Flemeth wouldn't dress like that? If we were to believe in Morrigan's story, she seduced men, used them and killed them. She also raised Morrigan to act the same way as well. It would be in her personality to dress like that. 

I meant that if a woman wants to create *her own character*, as in the CC,  to be beautiful/sexy that is her right.

Flemeth is not a real person. Her look was created by an art team. Her appearance was crafted to get a reaction from an audience. She doesn't dress herself. 

I've heard that same reasoning of "her look fits her personality" applied to Isabela as well.  Which is also just as convenient, no actually even more so, when applied to Isabela than Flemeth.

[Plaintiff]

All the old women in Thedas have rockin' bods. They must do a lot of aqua-robics.

[Bionuts]

It's offensive to do anything these days.

*sneeze*

"ohmigod a womanhater misogynist flablahblah"

*poop*

"the poop is too sexy I object"

Although, in all seriousness, the majority of people were not sexually aroused by her, as you were. I did not see her slow walk as seductive. It was more a walk of arrogance than anything. Cleavage was the last thing on my mind, as well as the greater majority.

[sandalisthemaker]

Plaintiff wrote...

All the old women in Thedas have rockin' bods. They must do a lot of aqua-robics.

I can always count on you, huh?  Lmao.

[n7stormrunner]

umm, I wouldn't say flemeth is sexy except in a "power is sexy" kinda way. however she is less crazy spawn hag in da 2.

[Marakov7]

In DAO, she was lounging around in her casual attire...hadn't taken a bath that day (or year)...no makeup...wanted to give the impression that she was just some harmless old female hermit living in the wilds...well, until she turned into a dragon.

In DA2, she took a bath, put on some makeup, and donned her travel clothes (she cleaned up good)...maybe she had a big date with some poor sucker in Kirkwall. As far as cleavage...she had breasts in the Korcari Wilds, it would just burn out your eyeballs if you looked too closely at them.

[Battlebloodmage]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

Like you said, whether it's sexy or fashion; it's up to the player to decide. While it's offensive to make females into sex object, I'd say that it's equally offensive to tell women what they can and can't wear. How do you know Flemeth wouldn't dress like that? If we were to believe in Morrigan's story, she seduced men, used them and killed them. She also raised Morrigan to act the same way as well. It would be in her personality to dress like that. 

I meant that if a woman wants to create *her own character*, as in the CC,  to be beautiful/sexy that is her right.

Flemeth is not a real person. Her look was created by an art team. Her appearance was crafted to get a reaction from an audience. She doesn't dress herself. 

I've heard that same reasoning of "her look fits her personality" applied to Isabela as well.  Which is also just as convenient, no actually even more so, when applied to Isabela than Flemeth.

It's convenient because it makes sense, especially when the original concept art was going to portray her the same way. Her DAO seems to be a deception more than anything. You make it seem like Flemmeth's clothing is being offensive to women when it seems to be that it's you who have the problem with it. You seem to have a certain notion about what women should be dressed as and portrayed, and when it goes against your belief, then those females are not acted as they should or behave as they should. For Flemmeth, even when there are evidence that it's in her nature to dress a certain way, you hand-wave it as out-of-character and make it seem like the creator wants to sell sexy grandma to a bunch of whippersnappers. There are other powerful women who don't dress sexy like Elthina and Meredith. There are also female fighters who dress in full-armored like Aveline. 2 examples out of the whole game are exceptions, not a rule. You just pick and choose certain examples to prove your points while it's clear that the majority of the female characters in this game dress very modestly.