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On the sexification of Flemeth


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#176
ScarMK

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TK514 wrote...

Far too subjective to be a worthwhile topic. For example, I thought she looked really cool, but didn't find her especially sexy.

And really, I don't think comparisons to DA:O are useful in the slightest. Everyone in DA:O looked like they were made out of melting wax, and some were just melting faster than others. It was a terrible engine for rendering people. Almost as bad as Elder Scrolls: Oblivion.

Almost.

So DA2 models are going to look better just because they're not DA:O, and the change in the art design direction just happened to help even more in this case.


Da2 ran on the same engine as Origins.  They just went from wax to Pillbury Doughboys.

#177
TK514

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ScarMK wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Far too subjective to be a worthwhile topic. For example, I thought she looked really cool, but didn't find her especially sexy.

And really, I don't think comparisons to DA:O are useful in the slightest. Everyone in DA:O looked like they were made out of melting wax, and some were just melting faster than others. It was a terrible engine for rendering people. Almost as bad as Elder Scrolls: Oblivion.

Almost.

So DA2 models are going to look better just because they're not DA:O, and the change in the art design direction just happened to help even more in this case.


Da2 ran on the same engine as Origins.  They just went from wax to Pillbury Doughboys.


Shocking.  Night and day shocking.  How could DA:O have been so terrible?  Look at Flemeth up there.  She looks like Dorothy just threw water on her.

#178
Olmerto

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Sejborg wrote...

Wasn't DA2 an exercise in being as inconsistent to the established universe as possible?


Of course, and that's all there is to it. It was a blatent retcon to "restart" the portrayal of certain aspects of the franchise.

#179
Star fury

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Sejborg wrote...

Wasn't DA2 an exercise in being as inconsistent to the established universe as possible?


Yes it was.

#180
Angrywolves

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Flemeth wasn't terrible in DAO.
She hadn't regenerated herself.
I think she has precognition.
She had manipulated Morrigan into doing certain things including sleeping with the protagonist, so she was just waiting for events to unfold.

#181
Ieldra

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AntiChri5 wrote...

Two days ago, i started a new playthrough of Origins. In an early conversation, Morrigan said something to the effect of she wouldn't be surprised if Flemeth adopted a different form to seduce men.

So.......yeah. Flemeth's DA2 look is completely in character. Dragon Age 2 is one of the best games when it comes to the way women dress. Their look is always in character, it's the way they would dress if they were real people. Having all women dress conservatively regardless of characterisation is as stupid as having all women dress promiscuisly, if less offensive.

Having sexy women exist in games is only problematic when either ALL (or at least a significant majority) women are dressed that way or when a woman is dressed that way despite her personality (for example, Miranda). There is a horrifically shameful list of games with characters cheapened by fanservice or games that "sexify" all women. But this isn't one of them.

I agree. DA2 is unusually good in this regard. For instance, female warriors and rogues like Ginnis and Lilley wear armor without any cleavage. Much better than in DAO. However, I'm always put off by Charade - I really like her, but a dungeon crawl in a shoulder-less dress is a bit much.

And as I said, Flemeth is a shapeshifter and a powerful witch, maybe even an incarnation of an old god or something similar. She gets a free pass for minor deviations from the "dress for the occasion" principle, and I don't think she's overly sexualized.  

Modifié par Ieldra2, 31 juillet 2013 - 09:41 .


#182
Angrywolves

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Depends on what Gaider's plans are for her.
We presume from the video that Morrigan is going to occupy the static role of advising the Inquisitor.
If Flemeth is in the game I would like for her to take a more active role.
This is a time for cougars, younger men with older women and Gaider shouldn't be afraid to explore that possibility.

#183
AlexanderCousland

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Why does everyone have a problem with the portrayal of the female body.. gimme a break. Flemeth look's fine in DA2. Let's apply the same logic to the Men in-game and see if ANYONE care's.

#184
Star fury

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FreshIstay wrote...

Why does everyone have a problem with the portrayal of the female body.. gimme a break. Flemeth look's fine in DA2. Let's apply the same logic to the Men in-game and see if ANYONE care's.


People have a problem, because it is old woman's body. Do you lot even read the thread? There is always a poster whoi pops up with generic replies.

#185
ultimatekotorfan

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sandalisthemaker wrote...

Bionuts wrote...

The Desire Demon is hot because she's powerful. Powerful people are attractive. Dominant people are attractive. They put your inhibitions to rest.

A guy would let Lady of the Forest, Morrigan, Desire Demon, Lara Croft, etc., do whatever they wanted. You can't say the same for some average woman you meet at work.

Power=hot


All of those women also have their boobs on full display.
Is Aveline hot then? She's powerful.


Hell to the yes

#186
Sifr

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Personally, I always thought that her old hag form in Origins was designed to lure the Warden and others into a false sense of security. When Alistair sees her for instance, he's incredulous that this crazy old woman could be the Flemeth of legend and even the Warden can admit to thinking the same.

But are you telling me that Hawke's really going to believe she's merely a "nutty old bat" after witnessing her transforming from a High Dragon? It makes perfect sense that she'd instead choose to appear as a powerful, elegant and dangerous looking sorceress! As such, Hawke's more likely to know it's better for their own well-being to just agree to her terms when she asks for a favour.

In my mind, it'd make sense for Flemeth to appear differently to various people depending on her mood, the current situation at hand or what she hopes to gain from them.

#187
Cainhurst Crow

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ultimatekotorfan wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Bionuts wrote...

The Desire Demon is hot because she's powerful. Powerful people are attractive. Dominant people are attractive. They put your inhibitions to rest.

A guy would let Lady of the Forest, Morrigan, Desire Demon, Lara Croft, etc., do whatever they wanted. You can't say the same for some average woman you meet at work.

Power=hot


All of those women also have their boobs on full display.
Is Aveline hot then? She's powerful.


Hell to the yes


I like aveline.

#188
ultimatekotorfan

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Foopydoopydoo wrote...

I think "sexification" is a bit much. But I don't like the redesign either. Or the other concepts all that much. But that's probably because I would have placed the emphasis on mystery not power. A hooded figure with locks of silver hair spilling out and gleaming yellow eyes kinda thing. Cliche I know but I'm much more enthralled by the mystery of Flemeth than I am at her potential power.


Every old female character can't be Kreia, Foopy. :P 

#189
Genshie

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Darth Brotarian wrote...

ultimatekotorfan wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Bionuts wrote...

The Desire Demon is hot because she's powerful. Powerful people are attractive. Dominant people are attractive. They put your inhibitions to rest.

A guy would let Lady of the Forest, Morrigan, Desire Demon, Lara Croft, etc., do whatever they wanted. You can't say the same for some average woman you meet at work.

Power=hot


All of those women also have their boobs on full display.
Is Aveline hot then? She's powerful.


Hell to the yes


I like aveline.

 I was personally sad that she rebuffed my Hawke's advances. (I just have a thing for strong women I guess. The freckles and the red hair helped too. XD)

Anyway, for Flemeth the first thing I took note of when I first saw her was her horns, her gauntlets, and boots. (Damn those were some fine looking gauntlets and boots) I personally viewed her new look as an older looking Maleficent.

Modifié par Genshie, 01 août 2013 - 07:43 .


#190
ultimatekotorfan

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Star fury wrote...

Vapaä wrote...
She's the token fanservice girl, but my point is why would they used Flemeth for fanservice where she almost doesn't appear at all ? what about Aveline, of Meridith, of Meril, or, or...?


Or Bethany, or Isabela as even YOU admitted, or Leandra. Merrill is too gigglesquee tbf.

Now her look match a her personality: a powerful, flamboyant and intimidating creature, her old hag look in DAO didn't do her justice


She looks like a ****.

No, Varric's clevage is relly wide, he was almost entirely bare-chested


Do you have a thing for "Varric's clevage"?


The irony.

#191
Cainhurst Crow

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Genshie wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

ultimatekotorfan wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Bionuts wrote...

The Desire Demon is hot because she's powerful. Powerful people are attractive. Dominant people are attractive. They put your inhibitions to rest.

A guy would let Lady of the Forest, Morrigan, Desire Demon, Lara Croft, etc., do whatever they wanted. You can't say the same for some average woman you meet at work.

Power=hot


All of those women also have their boobs on full display.
Is Aveline hot then? She's powerful.


Hell to the yes


I like aveline.

 I was personally sad that she rebuffed my Hawke's advances. (I just have a thing for strong women I guess. The freckles and the red hair helped too. XD)

Anyway, for Flemeth the first thing I took note of when I first saw her was her horns, her gauntlets, and boots. (Damn those were some fine looking gauntlets and boots) I personally viewed her new look as an older looking Maleficent.


That's one of the reasons I like aveline, actually.

Two things I look for in characters to judge their "worth" are, are they willing to stand up to me if I stomp all over their principles. And are they able to be their own person, more or less.

Aveline and varric both kinda fall into this category for me, and it's why they both tend to be my favorite characters from dragon age 2.

#192
ultimatekotorfan

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abnocte wrote...

Nightdragon8 wrote...

*snip*

she is a shapshifter, and we don't know if human is her 'real' form.  I bet if she wanted to she could shape shift into a 20yo hottie. cause I don't see her getting men to follow her in her DA:O state.


If she could shapeshift into a 20 year hottie why would she need to use her daugthers as vessels for her essence?

In DA:O it is clearly said, it is the reason Morrigan asks you to kill her mother...

Valadras21 wrote...
My opinion is that Flemeth looked great in DA2 and I think the look
suits her, especially since I suspect she's actually an old god (or uber
dragon) and not an abomination-hag.


My particular take is that Flemeth  is an old god whose essence is trapped in a human body, and thats why she ages and uses her daugthers as vessels, so she does not die.
Lets remember that the archdemon soul can posses a darkspawn body when its original form is killed in a very familiar fashion to what Morrigan explains Flemeth has been doing all these centuries...

:whistle:


More on topic:

Morrigan clearly states in DA:O that she cannot shapeshift into another human. So I personally discard shapeshifting as a answer to Flemeth redesign.

I personally prefer her DA:O incarnation but because I'm of the opinion that there's no more dangerous enemy that the one that does not look dangerous.

I'm curious to see what they have done with Flemeth in DA:I


First of all, Flemeth does not consume her daughter's vital essences in order to appear younger or else she would just consume the life of anyone in order to survive. She literally switches bodies with them while retaining her consciousness. She can shapeshift into whatever form she wishes but ultimately must trade in her base form for something younger in order to survive.

Also, Morrigan doesn't state that shapeshifting into other human forms is impossible, just that it is not appealing to her, as she gains nothing from studying the human form. She does not see the benefit in becoming essentially herself in another persons skin, unlike becoming a wolf, which has it's own set of benefits and sates her curiousity. Even if this is not true, I doubt Flemeth follows the same rules when it comes to shapeshifting.

I definitely agree with your theory about her being an old god in human form, however. Her method of sustaining life is eerily similar to an archdemon. She can't have been tainted though, because the taint drives the old gods insane... But that begs the question of why and how an old god would've died in order to move into the body of the original Flemeth, because the old gods in their dragon forms certainly don't wizen on their own...

Damn, now I'm thinking too much. 

#193
Das Tentakel

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Sifr1449 wrote...

Personally, I always thought that her old hag form in Origins was designed to lure the Warden and others into a false sense of security. When Alistair sees her for instance, he's incredulous that this crazy old woman could be the Flemeth of legend and even the Warden can admit to thinking the same.


That whole schtick is unconvincing like you wouldn't believe, though. You might sort of go along with it because of the way the story is presented (when Flemeth is around the player is essentially a passive observer / listener, with the exception of that late encounter in DA:O of course), but I can pretty much guarantee that in a more 'first-person' setting, i.e. when you ARE the character, Flemeth's disguise would be wafer thin. You would KNOW she's one powerful &*%%$%^#$^, because she's signalling such in decidedly unsubtle terms (and by way of simple reasoning - she got you away from the clutches of the Darkspawn) and in any pen & paper RPG campaign all the players would go 'Aw hell, she's one powerful shapeshifting dragon/demon/sorceress/deity who has plans for us'. All kinds of spells would fly to identify / detect magic, particularly those related to disguises, alignment, glamour etc.

I've done characters like Flemeth as a DM, and run into them as a player. They work best as long as they haven't revealed themselves but everybody knows they are more than they seem. It's a suspense mystery thing. Once they reveal themselves, they're basically done (her turning into a dragon was pretty much a 'yeah, whatever, bring on the XP' experience for me), but in some stories these characters stick around like bubblegum on the sole of a shoe.

In DA:O she was a well-executed version of that standard NPC / plot device though, for a large part because of Kate Mulgrew's voice acting (she makes for a great old hag whom you suspect was once a very strict governess - sternly attractive in her own way - who believed in corporeal punishment, but maybe that's just me ^_^)

#194
LinksOcarina

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If you honestly think this  is a negative portrayal of the characters, you clearly have no concept of what sexuality is.

First things first, there is nothing wrong with non-gratuitous sexuality. People can, and always will be, sexy in video games because they are tailor made to look sexy. Of course they have degrees of sexuality to them, how much skin is shown, cleavage, and so forth. That is normal, and also widely accepted.

It is also a sign of maturity when it is done without pandering to an audience. Can you honestly say that the characters in Dragon Age II, while beautiful and in their own way, showing their sexuality to you, are pandering at the same time to the point of gratuity and objectification? Flemeth included?

Let me put it this way. Isabela is the most "sexual" character, we agree on that right? But what is the purpose of that sexuality? Is she there for the sake of being sexual to essentially be tantalized by her, or is her sexuality used in-game to give her character?

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 01 août 2013 - 03:50 .


#195
celestial_emperor

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I agree that Flemeth was over-sexualized for her appearance in Dragon Age II. You can see from the concept art that there was a version of Flemeth that was not as sexualized, but for some reason they went with the version that went into the game. Flemeth appears how she wants to appear. In Origins, you saw the version of Flemeth that used when raising Morrigan, to appear as a "proper mother" for Morrigan. It makes sense she appears as an older woman. Flemeth can appear however she wants to, but doesn't explain why we got the bizarre outfit in Dragon Age II instead of the cooler concept art one.

I think it's unfair to argue that just because other female characters are dressed more modestly (Aveline, Meredith), that the game has a fair, non-misogynistic portrayal of women. Dragon Age II has Isabela as a party companion, for the Maker's sake.

Women are portrayed in a problematic fashion - but in a sense, it's part of the game. Varric is not the most reliable of narrators. That's not meant to be an excuse for it, it's just that Varric is just guilty of objectifying men and women in his memories. In his memory, Isabela is a brazen, unapologetic ****; Anders jumps at the chance to hump the Champion's (especially male Hawke, which bothers so many people on the boards) leg; and Merril is a stupidly naive kitty who needs some Hawke loving to sort her brains out. And Varric is the coolest dude in the room.

Dragon Age II has some caricatures, but if you accept that the device is a story told from Varric, well, maybe Varric saw Flemeth that way.

#196
Zombie_Alexis

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Flemeth is probably my favorite DA character, and I actually had no problem with how she looked in DA2. I just assumed she was still partially in dragon form and that she can appear any way she wishes as she's a shape shifter. I thought her movements conveyed great power and I found her mannerisms (that fantastic moment where she casually tosses away that Hurlock body) coupled with the fabulous Kate Mulgrew voice acting to be intimidating and awesome. I'm really hoping she will make another appearance in the next game and her look is yet again completely different to emphasize her shape shifter abilities. I feel that Flemeth may be one of the most powerful entities in Thedas and that she actually restrains herself most of the time when interacting with lesser beings. I really hope we get more tidbits and insights into her character.