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[Sylvius the Mad]

sunsphere5 wrote...

So you are saying you prefer games with decent gameplay and CC and mediocre storytelling/plot?  And more specifically, you would rather DA:I trade those design elements for a better CC element?

I'm not saying that at all.  I'm saying that DD's focus was likely never on storytelling, so suggesting that increased focus on CC robbed storytelling development of resources is misleading at best.

If the CC options in DD had made DD bad at the thing it was actually trying to do, that would be relevant.  But since DD appears to have done what it was trying to do well (or so I've heard - I wouldn't know, because they didn't release a PC version), that suggests that having CC options isn't a detriment to achieving other design goals.

[sunsphere5]

coldwetn0se wrote...

I don't think anyone here is remarking on "either/or", regarding wanting a beefier CC. And BW will certainly end up doing as they wish. Personally, I don't even compare the two games to each other, because both are satisfying to me for completely different reasons. Is the story/characters lacking in DD? I would say yes, but I still have a ton of fun with the game. Wanting a more expansive CC doesn't mean we wish for something else in the DA games to be lacking. Resources as they are, this is just fans throwing out suggestions, and possibly adding to a wish list. I think some have even stated pretty clearly that they wish for the best of both worlds. More CC options, great story and characters. Will it happen?
*shrug* .........dunno.

I guess that's kind of my point; people aren't really taking this into account, the limited resource issue.  And while you may not actively want something else to be lacking so that you can have your CC, it is likelythe direct consequence of that desire. 

Also,

P.s.if resources are limited then they need to extend them. These next
gen consoles can handle more resources - easy. Isn't that the whole
point of next gen? If bioware needs extra money, then hell...extend the
release date. Save more revenue. I'd happily wait longer for something
better. I think most would agree.

This is the conflict I'm pointing out; Bioware can't keep extending the release date to add more features, otherwise the game would never come out.  They can't spend more and more money, otherwise the game will never be profitable.

The request of better CC is reasonable; just recognize the costs and implications and ask yourself what you'd be willing to give up for it.

[sunsphere5]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

sunsphere5 wrote...

So you are saying you prefer games with decent gameplay and CC and mediocre storytelling/plot?  And more specifically, you would rather DA:I trade those design elements for a better CC element?

I'm not saying that at all.  I'm saying that DD's focus was likely never on storytelling, so suggesting that increased focus on CC robbed storytelling development of resources is misleading at best.

If the CC options in DD had made DD bad at the thing it was actually trying to do, that would be relevant.  But since DD appears to have done what it was trying to do well (or so I've heard - I wouldn't know, because they didn't release a PC version), that suggests that having CC options isn't a detriment to achieving other design goals.

So you are saying that focusing on gameplay and CC at the expense of storytelling was a deliberate design decision??  Capcom literally sat down and said "ok be meh on the story, but knock the gameplay and CC out of the park"?  Where does this assertion come from. that their focus was intentionally on those 2 aspects and not on story?

Like I said, it's a zero-sum game. 

[Wulfram]

Different body shapes doesn't really cost so much if you're not doing lots of cinematic story telling I don't think - it's when you need to get all these differently shaped people animated and interacting with things that it starts getting difficult

[Eternal Phoenix]

Not that there's much interacting in Dragon Age asides from the romance scenes. In Dragon's Dogma the technology meant that characters in cut scenes would look at your character's face regardless of their height and if they were to interact with your character then it would look good.

http://zombiegamer.c...plex-cut-scenes

http://www.capcom-un...n_dragons_dogma

Also the camera angle always made sure your character was completely shown regardless of their height.

It just adds more work. However in Origins the elves, humans and dwarves are all different shapes and sizes and all of them work well in cut scenes. Bioware needn't create a slider for height. They can just create three preset options for the player to choose from (if they were to go down that route).

Personally I'll settle for better facial customization but it would be neat if they added body settings as well such as weight or height.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 01 août 2013 - 07:50 .

[coldwetn0se]

And again, you seem to assume we would want anything cut at the expense of a more detailed CC. Nope. The wish would be for both to occur; story and character creation. Will it? Who knows. But once more with feeling, at least for me, no! I do not want characterization and story to get diminished because resources were allocated more to a character creator. I also don't believe that would ever happen.

As for Sylvius' point, they didn't design the game to have a bad storyline, they designed a game focused on gameplay, gear, vocation building, and character creation. Not at the expense of story, but simply a focus on other things. Because not all games need to focus on the same aspects. This is also why I don't compare the two games (DA and DD).

[happy_daiz]

DD is an open-world game, and as such, should imply a little weaker story than a plot-driven game like what BW does, yes?

I mean, the nature of it being open world means that you're not getting pounded over the head with the story. It is there, if you want to focus on it, but you have the freedom to do whatever you want, and that can include not playing in a linear main quest path.

Anyway...back to character creation. We should start a list of games that had great ones, and why, instead of getting bogged down in a philosophical debate about this broken record.

Modifié par happy_daiz, 01 août 2013 - 08:12 .

[PlasmaCheese]

Another thing I really liked about the DD CC is that I could make my woman character look older or mature without making her look haggard. In DA's CC, either your character is young or 80. Atleast for females. I didn't make a guy so I don't know.

[sunsphere5]

coldwetn0se wrote...

And again, you seem to assume we would want anything cut at the expense of a more detailed CC. Nope. The wish would be for both to occur; story and character creation. Will it? Who knows. But once more with feeling, at least for me, no! I do not want characterization and story to get diminished because resources were allocated more to a character creator. I also don't believe that would ever happen.

As for Sylvius' point, they didn't design the game to have a bad storyline, they designed a game focused on gameplay, gear, vocation building, and character creation. Not at the expense of story, but simply a focus on other things. Because not all games need to focus on the same aspects. This is also why I don't compare the two games (DA and DD).

It's not an assumption; it is a consequence.  Check the threads with the Bioware tag, there's more than a few posts talking about game development, resource allocation, etc.  One of the recent threads where it came up (I believe) was about the human vs. any race protagonist.  Bioware is pretty up front about their need to make hard choices about how to allocate resources to make the game and give the fans what they want.

As for the second paragraph, as above, I'm really at a loss to understand this attitude or perspective.  Did Capcom actually say this in a press release or something?  It seems so counter to the intent of an RPG. 

And I'm again baffled by this notion that you can focus on one aspect of game development without it impacting any other game design parameters.  If resources don't matter, then is Capcom's design/writing team just sucky?  Their CC/gameplay uberproductive in comparison?

[sharkboy421]

I don't have too much to add here but I absolutely agree that the CC in DD was simply wonderful.  Height, weight, muscle tone, skin, eye and hair, voice and how your character stands; it was wonderful just how much you could tweak.  I would just love to see DAI use a similar system.

And slightly off-topic but while I was playing through DD I kept thinking how much I wish Bioware could get their hands on it.  The lore and setting of the game is great and I think Bioware could do wonders with it and make a truly great story for it.  'Cause yeah, the main story of DD was a little weak and I really hope it is stronger in the next one.

[sunsphere5]

Trista Hawke wrote...

sunsphere5 wrote...

This thread has become...interesting.  So everyone loves the CC aspect of Dragon's Dogma (me included), but the consensus seems to be that the story/plot ranged from less than satisfactory to actually pretty bad (I haven't completed the game yet so I can't say one way or the other).  Given a world of limited resources and a zero-sum game here, I think it's interesting that people want Bioware to put more resources into CC, when the example being held up (DD) suggests that Capcom should have put fewer resources into CC and more resources into writing/designing. 

So for those die-hard CC folks here, would you really sacrifice story/plot/design elements for better CC?  Really?  And if your answer is "just add more resources", that's not a viable answer; companies have finite money/people/time and decisions must be made to allocate resources throughout the program's development.

 

I am an optimist and believe we can have both. I mean... we put a freakin robot on Mars, you know? A gaming company can't put together awesome story and awesome CC? C'monnnnn... :happy:

Indeed we did.  And we did so without the constraints of needing to make the journey profitable, reporting results to shareholders to move our stock price, or any of the other concerns a public company has when they make the game.

Again, I'm not saying don't ask for it, by all means do so.  I was blown away by DD CC.  But look at the evidence; so far the consensus is the story suffered for it.  So be aware of what your costs might be.  As I said above, there's a number of Bioware posts discussing this very topic, choice and resources.  So all I'm saying is this: it's great to ask, but don't be surprised/disappointed if Bioware chooses to focus their attention on other things, and as you play the game, ask yourself what you would've been willing to give up in exchange for the CC options.  And multiply that by all the other gamers' individual preferences, and I think you'll see the tough spot Bioware is in.

[sunsphere5]

Trista Hawke wrote...

*snip*

I really believe it can be done. It's almost nauseating that it hasn't been done by some gaming company already. These companies have tons of money and resources, but who knows the ins and outs of how those things are handled (or mismanaged). 

As for extending the date and the game *never* coming out - well that's just hyperbole. You guys need to hold these companies to a higher standard. They are not poor, not without resources. Technology keeps getting better, yet we keep falling for the: "Oh we can't gather the resources to do that."  

Any game that combines amazing CC plus amazing story/interaction would be insanely profitable. Every fan boy/girl from here to your grandma's house would buy that game in a heartbeat - and all the subsequent DLC. 

How can these companies expect people to rush out and buy their games if they keep just churning out the same old stuff? The only path to cruddy profits is underestimating dev talent/console capabilities. If gaming companies want to just make a "quick" buck, sure they'll get a little profit by putting out a game that's only at 70% quality. 

I think it's time for a change. 

With kickstarter, people can easily form creative projects and acquire the funding if they already have an established fan base. There are other crowd funding possibilities out there too. Plus I never believe a big business when it says it lacks money or resources. They're just holding on to a lump sum in these unfavorable economic times. 

But any good business man (person) knows that in order to make an incredible profit - you have to take a risk.

Ok, talk about hyperbole; this is so obviously false.  Look, I get where you are coming from, but the list of "insanely profitable" games that had sucky to no customization disproves your thesis.  CC is a nice-to-have luxury, not an essential feature.  Are you really saying that there is a huge untapped gamer market that has been refusing to buy games because of a lack of character customization??  really?  That companies have left millions of dollars on the table up until now?  i cannot imagine anyone picking up DAO or ME or whatever, looking at the box and saying "nope, no amazing CC = no purchasing by me". 

[Angrywolves]

I'm a pessimist .
Hard choices. Bioware having to make hard choices in its resource allocation.
Or in other words we couldn't figure out how to program it so we tell the fans we had to make hard choices.
Convenient.

[Eternal Phoenix]

happy_daiz wrote...

DD is an open-world game, and as such, should imply a little weaker story than a plot-driven game like what BW does, yes?

I mean, the nature of it being open world means that you're not getting pounded over the head with the story. It is there, if you want to focus on it, but you have the freedom to do whatever you want, and that can include not playing in a linear main quest path.

Anyway...back to character creation. We should start a list of games that had great ones, and why, instead of getting bogged down in a philosophical debate about this broken record.

Red Dead Redemption wants a word with you.

Seriously that game has a better story than many linear "story-based" games.

If developers shared that view-point then Bioware wouldn't be opening Inqusition up and Witcher 3 wouldn't be open world either.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Red Dead Redemption wants a word with you.

Another game that needed a PC port.

[In Exile]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Seriously that game has a better story than many linear "story-based" games.

RDR has a very a linear story, like Skyrim. It just happens to also have a persistent world. 

Modifié par In Exile, 02 août 2013 - 05:28 .

[Vapaa]

happy_daiz wrote...

DD is an open-world game, and as such, should imply a little weaker story than a plot-driven game like what BW does, yes?

As an open-world game, DD is pretty bad

Just one city and one town, one mine, a couple of small castles, and the same forest again and again. Also the map doesn't give you much choice since areas are linked only by tiny passages (especially egregious in the sive Quina quest when the only way is guarded by a massive beef gate)

DD has great CC, fantastic combat, and great creatures, but the story is shallow, the open-world aspect is badly excecuted, the narration is plain bad, and the romances were made by a LSD junkie on withdrawal