214 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

Really? You're the one having delusions of 'earning' all of these qualities that Shepard displays. I'm the one being perfectly honest. I'm the player. I press buttons on the controller. None of Shepard's qualities are a result of what I do.

Whether Shepard is honest or scheming, whther he is pro-geth or pro-quarian, pro-human or more universal, all are up to the player

[David7204]

You are not Shepard and Shepard is not you. We're all just people who sit in front of a screen and press buttons on a keyboard or controller. Shepard isn't competent because we sit in front of that screen. Shepard is competent because s/he's competent.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I now believe that David is simply a sensationalist who just wants attention. He wants people to pay attention to him, even if it's over stupid or ridiculous things. Pretty sad if he has to go on a video game forum just to get his kicks.

[KaiserShep]

The capacity to establish peace is something that's been suggested since Mass Effect 2, but the ability to have the choice removed is possible, should you not do everything to meet the requirements. Removal of it altogether will not make it better.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 31 juillet 2013 - 05:18 .

[David7204]

Until you let go of this delusion, this fantasy, you won't see straight.

The player sits on the couch and presses buttons.

The characters make things happen. Not you. The characters are smart and brave and skilled. Not you. Yeah, maybe you play a few minigames. You maybe you allocate the right skill points in the right places. The idea that such things 'earn' competence is ridiculous.

[Jorji Costava]

I'm guessing David's point is that player skill isn't something that's represented 'in game,' because that would be fourth-wall breaking. No one ever says, "Hey Shepard, you did a really good job today. That must be because some person in an alternate reality is pushing buttons on a controller causing you to move around, shoot stuff, and choose between one of two limited dialogue options."

If that's the point, then I guess I agree. But that doesn't mean games aren't largely exercises in cycles of challenge and reward. Typically, the reward somehow accrues to the player as well as the player avatar. For instance, experience points aren't a literal thing that exist in the world of RPG's (you can't ask Mordin, "How much XP do you have?"), but they are a mechanic whose effects bleed over into the role-playing aspects, by enabling combat or even dialogue options that wouldn't otherwise be available.

@DeinonSlayer:

That sketch of an alternative version of Rannoch looks pretty awesome so far (ah, what might have been). It's going to take me a while to get through it, though; I might have some more thoughts later on. It's getting a bit late here, and my curfew is coming up soon.

@chemiclord:

I also really like this idea about a Quarian coup being the basis for the Rannoch arc. Alternatively, something like this could have been the hook for Tali's loyalty mission in ME2 (I always thought the "Tali is on trial for bringing active Geth to the flotilla" was weaksauce). Suppose Quarian radicals are planning a terrorist strike that will severly compromise the Flotilla's food production capability or some such, because they know that doing so will force the Admiralty Board to fast-track its plan for an invasion of Rannoch. Tali and/or her father is implicated in the conspiracy for whatever reason, and the trial gets rolling from there.

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

You are not Shepard and Shepard is not you. We're all just people who sit in front of a screen and press buttons on a keyboard or controller. Shepard isn't competent because we sit in front of that screen. Shepard is competent because s/he's competent.

.  Shepard is competent because we have made him so.  And we can also make him incompetent.  A Shepard who sells Legion, loses everyone on the SM, betrays Wrex, and refuses to stop the Reapers is harfdltly competent.  And all of that is done at the behest of the player.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

You are not Shepard and Shepard is not you. We're all just people who sit in front of a screen and press buttons on a keyboard or controller. Shepard isn't competent because we sit in front of that screen. Shepard is competent because s/he's competent.

The existence of the interactive video game completely proves you false. 

You aren't Shepard, but Shepard can be whatever you want him or her to be, including you (man that universe must totally suck). 

Shepard is competent because I allow him to be competent. 

I can make him incompetent too: It's completely within my power to just start randomly shooting at birds (and missing) in the middle of a fight. I can totally throw grenades at walls and miss if I choose. I can totally miss my targets if I choose. I can even stand up and spin in a circle until I get killed by some enemy.

[David7204]

It's not a chore.
It's not particularly a challenge.
It's not work.

It's a game.

A game.

A mass produced commodity explicitly designed and marketed to be enjoyed with a minimum of frustration and difficulty by the mass market. Which, of course, includes plenty of people of below average intelligence and skill.

[David7204]

You can make Shepard incompetent, if you wish.

But you don't earn competence.

Modifié par David7204, 31 juillet 2013 - 05:23 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

Until you let go of this delusion, this fantasy, you won't see straight.

The player sits on the couch and presses buttons.

The characters make things happen. Not you. The characters are smart and brave and skilled. Not you. Yeah, maybe you play a few minigames. You maybe you allocate the right skill points in the right places. The idea that such things 'earn' competence is ridiculous.

Until you let go of this delusion, this fantasy, you won't see straight. 

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

You can make Shepard incompetent, if you wish.

But you don't earn competence.

.  well the reputation system in ME3 runs counter to that.  Dont do enough fetch quests and peace is impossible.

[David7204]

osbornep wrote...

I'm guessing David's point is that player skill isn't something that's represented 'in game,' because that would be fourth-wall breaking. No one ever says, "Hey Shepard, you did a really good job today. That must be because some person in an alternate reality is pushing buttons on a controller causing you to move around, shoot stuff, and choose between one of two limited dialogue options."

If that's the point, then I guess I agree. But that doesn't mean games aren't largely exercises in cycles of challenge and reward. Typically, the reward somehow accrues to the player as well as the player avatar. For instance, experience points aren't a literal thing that exist in the world of RPG's (you can't ask Mordin, "How much XP do you have?"), but they are a mechanic whose effects bleed over into the role-playing aspects, by enabling combat or even dialogue options that wouldn't otherwise be available.

No. My point is just what I said. The player doesn't 'earn' competence. Yes, there are challenges in games, but they're exactly that - game challenges - designed to be fun and accessible, and ultimately, easy. Not a chore. Not a headache. Not work. A game.

This is incredible important, because a belief that the player 'earns' competence creates impossible and contradictory standards for powerful characters. How can a character possibilty be powerful if power must be legitimately 'earned' by the player, when all the player can do is press buttons and complete challenges explicitly designed to be accessible?

Obviously, you can't. Which then leads to the demand that power must be stripped from player characters. And hence demands that choices like the peace option are taken away.

Modifié par David7204, 31 juillet 2013 - 05:28 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

You can make Shepard incompetent, if you wish.

But you don't earn competence.

Yes, you do. It's called training. It's called growth. It's called nurturing of skill. Shepard does that simply by leveling up from a game perspective.

[Steelcan]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

You can make Shepard incompetent, if you wish.

But you don't earn competence.

Yes, you do. It's called training. It's called growth. It's called nurturing of skill. Shepard does that simply by leveling up from a game perspective.

And fetch quests that make Shepard more charusmatic.  Dont forget those.

[David7204]

Shepard does that, yes. You don't do that. You sit in front of a screen and complete challenges a five year old could quickly grasp, and indeed do.

Modifié par David7204, 31 juillet 2013 - 05:29 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

This is incredible important, because a belief that the player 'earns' competence creates impossible and contradictory standards for powerful characters. How can a character possibilty be powerful if power must be legitimately 'earned' by the player, when all the player can do is press buttons and complete challenges explicitly designed to be accessible?

You're deliberately phrasing this into an argument that no one has made, with the sole intent to make everyone else look uncredible and stupid.

You're changing your point, you're trying to egress from a fallacy by changing the meaning of your point (also while changing your point).

Just give up David.

[TsaiMeLemoni]

I wonder how much shorter all of these threads would be if people stopped replying to David.

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

Shepard does that, yes. You don't do that. You sit in front of a screen and complete challenges a five year old could quickly grasp, and indeed do.

.  He does that because we make him.

[Steelcan]

TsaiMeLemoni wrote...

I wonder how much shorter all of these threads would be if people stopped replying to David.

where would the fun be in that?  Hes already a meme on this site.  Maybe he can sink lower!

[David7204]

You 'make' him. But you don't earn it. Shepard is not the savior of the galaxy, because, you, personally, are such a skilled and smart and awesome person that you defied impossible odds and played the game so super-well that Shepard is Shepard instead of nobody.