214 réponses à ce sujet

[Kataphrut94]

Seboist wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

If I could retroactively remove every trace of racism from the Mass Effect 1 Renegade path, I would..

Those were the best bits about ME1 Renegade shep. That's better than what happened in the sequels where it was just a choice of generic space hero (paragon) vs generic space hero with scars(Renegade).

Besides, ME3's plot validates what renegade femshep says to Kaidan about aliens needing humans to save them from themselves.

What's good about it? All it does is make Shepard look like a hypocrite and an imbecile. It doesn't help that the first two games punished people for not going all one way one the Paragon/Renegade slider, so people who wanted to be Renegade for the fun of being an uncompromising take-no-prisoners anti-hero had to put up with a lot of inconsistent crap if they wanted to get their reputation bonuses.

That's why the Paragon path is so much more popular than Renegade- it's more consistent with the themes and generally better written. Renegade improved in later games, but by then the damage was done and people's perceptions had already been coloured. Plus, how far could that stupid space-racist angle have gone in Mass Effect 2 & 3s plots?

TIM: Shepard, here is a list of dossiers for your team- the best scientists, soldiers and mercenaries.
Shep: What the hell are all these aliens doing on the list? Humanity doesn't need their help, nobody else has the balls to do what we do!
TIM: Couldn't agree more. So, I guess that leaves the stuck-up ice queen, the psycho-biotic, the kleptomaniac, the deranged mercenary and Jacob. Have fun!

Hackett: Shepard, I need you to build alliances to gather fleets, armies and engineers for the Crucible.
Shepard: What, ally with those stinkin' xeos? Humanity can forge our own path!
Hackett:...right. I'm sure that's a great comfort to the millions of dead humans.

[Fixers0]

Being Xeno-Nationalistic and having alliances with other races isn't mutally exclusive, heck even the Imperium of Man does it from time to time, the fact that some people can't appreciate certain idealogical paths is fine by me, but the shouldn't force their fundamentalistic ideals upon us.

[Swass Effect]

Steelcan wrote...

I think the peace option should have been removed for Rannoch.

I think the peace option should have been handled better. When you think about it making peace between the quarians and the geth shows the reapers aren't needed. Organics and synthetics are at peace why does the star child speak as though organics and synthetics can't co exist when they are fighting together outside against an enemy supposedly protecting synthetics from organics.

The whole reapers exist to protect organics story contradicts itself in so many ways it's comical. We should never have been given an idea as to why the reapers exist at all, and just find a way to destroy them. They had the idea that we had to know what their purpose was when it truly didn't matter and honestly ended up contradicting itself to the point of frustration. 

[Sir DeLoria]

 I hate the entire way the Rannoch arc developed in ME3. They ruined the Geth once and for all. Not just that, but the way they painted the genocidal Geth as innocent and merciful sickens me to this day. There shouldn't have been an option to pick the Geth over the Quarians.

[Sebby]

Fixers0 wrote...

Being Xeno-Nationalistic and having alliances with other races isn't mutally exclusive, heck even the Imperium of Man does it from time to time, the fact that some people can't appreciate certain idealogical paths is fine by me, but the shouldn't force their fundamentalistic ideals upon us.

Indeed, similar real life examples would be how the Spanish conquistadors were able to to recruit Amerindian allies in the name of Spanish imperialism or the Imperial Japanese with their collaborationist Chinese army that numbered in the hundreds of thousands in WW2.

Nothing mutually exclusive about human nationalist Shepard partnering with anti-council species like the Krogan whatsoever.

Modifié par Seboist, 31 juillet 2013 - 09:09 .

[Mr.House]

Necanor wrote...

 I hate the entire way the Rannoch arc developed in ME3. They ruined the Geth once and for all. Not just that, but the way they painted the genocidal Geth as innocent and merciful sickens me to this day. There shouldn't have been an option to pick the Geth over the Quarians.

Awww, look at the poor quarian fan.

[HellbirdIV]

Necanor wrote...

genocidal Geth

genocide
: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group


The geth are not genocidal, because killing the quarians was not done with the intent to destroy them as a cultural group.

Legion: We had secured freedom. The creators were no longer a threat, so we abandoned pursuit.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 31 juillet 2013 - 09:34 .

[Sir DeLoria]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Necanor wrote...

genocidal Geth

genocide
: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group


The geth are not genocidal, because killing the quarians was not done with the intent to destroy them as a cultural group.

Legion: We had secured freedom. The creators were no longer a threat, so we abandoned pursuit.

I'm sure creator children, elderly and civilians were a major threat to the Geth. I guess that's why they massacred millions of them. They systematically purged the Quarian population of Rannoch and its colonies and let a few million flee. Are they not merciful?

[wolfhowwl]

Necanor wrote...

 I hate the entire way the Rannoch arc developed in ME3. They ruined the Geth once and for all. Not just that, but the way they painted the genocidal Geth as innocent and merciful sickens me to this day. There shouldn't have been an option to pick the Geth over the Quarians.

Why are you against choice in an RPG?

Count your blessings, players who chose the Geth only got a cutscene of the Quarians being wiped out.

If ME3 had handled this like DA:O's werewolves and elves we could have disposed of your precious Tali and Quarians in a much more...personal fashion.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 31 juillet 2013 - 10:39 .

[Sir DeLoria]

wolfhowwl wrote...

Necanor wrote...

 I hate the entire way the Rannoch arc developed in ME3. They ruined the Geth once and for all. Not just that, but the way they painted the genocidal Geth as innocent and merciful sickens me to this day. There shouldn't have been an option to pick the Geth over the Quarians.

Why are you against choice in an RPG?

Count your blessings, players who chose the Geth only got a cutscene of the Quarians being wiped.

If ME3 had handled this like DA:O's werewolves and elves we could have disposed of your precious Tali and Quarians in a much more...personal fashion.

Thanks, Captain Kar'Danna's last distress call and Tali's suicide were bad enough.

[HellbirdIV]

Necanor wrote...

I'm sure creator children, elderly and civilians were a major threat to the Geth

And there's no evidence - not even any quarian horror stories - that implies they killed them.

For all we know, the geth only ever fired on armed quarians and the quarian military were the ones who killed their own civilians - unlike the geth, we actually do see quarian soldiers kill civilians during the Morning War.

[Sir DeLoria]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Necanor wrote...

I'm sure creator children, elderly and civilians were a major threat to the Geth

And there's no evidence - not even any quarian horror stories - that implies they killed them.

For all we know, the geth only ever fired on armed quarians and the quarian military were the ones who killed their own civilians - unlike the geth, we actually do see quarian soldiers kill civilians during the Morning War.

So the rest of the Quarians just magically vanished?

I don't want to demonize the Geth, but this major part of the Morning War was never explained and Geth responsibility is the most logical explanation(that or bad writting).

[HellbirdIV]

Necanor wrote...

So the rest of the Quarians just magically vanished?

I don't want to demonize the Geth, but this major part of the Morning War was never explained and Geth responsibility is the most logical explanation.

Without empirical evidence to support it, it is merely speculation.

I remind you, we actually do see quarian soldiers killing quarian civilians (blowing up a building with a demolition charge), so the "most logical explanation" is that the quarians did more harm to themselves than the geth.

Logic based on presented evidence trumps logic based on anthropocentric prejudice.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 31 juillet 2013 - 10:03 .

[Redbelle]

The implication of the evidence provided states that Geth did engage in violent acts that resulted in the death of Quarians.

Had they not done so, the Quarian's would have noticed they were not racking up a body count when confronting Geth and pushed harder.

Simply put. If the Geth refused to present a credible threat then the Quarian's would have had no reason to evacuate a planet.

And on the notion of planet evacuation. While not knowig how many Quarian's there were at peak population. To say they got every last one onto ships and flew away is a bit of a stretch.

Either they suffered a drastic population reduction. Or they left some behind and were killed.

The Geth might not wanted to have killed them. But they were operating under kill or be killed.

I'm not saying the Geth innocent or guilty. But they had to have presented the kind of threat that made living in deep space a better option than remaining on world

[Sir DeLoria]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Necanor wrote...

So the rest of the Quarians just magically vanished?

I don't want to demonize the Geth, but this major part of the Morning War was never explained and Geth responsibility is the most logical explanation.

Without empirical evidence to support it, it is merely speculation.

I remind you, we actually do see quarian soldiers killing quarian civilians (blowing up a building with a demolition charge), so the "most logical explanation" is that the quarians did more harm to themselves than the geth.

Logic based on presented evidence trumps logic based on anthropocentric prejudice.

True, but it's illogical, that this happened on a large scale. Legion even admits, that the majority of the population was opposed to the Geth. 

[Redbelle]

Necanor wrote...

 I hate the entire way the Rannoch arc developed in ME3. They ruined the Geth once and for all. Not just that, but the way they painted the genocidal Geth as innocent and merciful sickens me to this day. There shouldn't have been an option to pick the Geth over the Quarians.

So save them both! Be the commander and sort the whole sorry mess out for them.

And ignore that elephant in the room called destroy ending.

As for not having the option?

Look. I'll take a BW game over a Square Enix Final Fantasy RPG (rpg? Meant action adventure), anyday. Because BW still has traditional RPG element's in it's gameplay. (by the skin of it's teeth in ME3).

Not more and more streamlined.... no need to think.....just push a button gameplay with such uninvolved decision making skills required that a toddler could beat it if it played long enough.

[Sir DeLoria]

Redbelle wrote...
The implication of the evidence provided states that Geth did engage in violent acts that resulted in the death of Quarians.
Had they not done so, the Quarian's would have noticed they were not racking up a body count when confronting Geth and pushed harder.
Simply put. If the Geth refused to present a credible threat then the Quarian's would have had no reason to evacuate a planet.
And on the notion of planet evacuation. While not knowig how many Quarian's there were at peak population. To say they got every last one onto ships and flew away is a bit of a stretch.

Either they suffered a drastic population reduction. Or they left some behind and were killed.

The Geth might not wanted to have killed them. But they were operating under kill or be killed.
I'm not saying the Geth innocent or guilty. But they had to have presented the kind of threat that made living in deep space a better option than remaining on world

Good point. Based on the nature of Rannoch(arid, small and only very few hospitable areas) and Quarian culture, I doubt population on Rannoch was very high. Still, a war of this scale could not have resulted in low civilian casualties.

In ME2 an Asari mentions, that her Asari bondmate was killed by the Geth when they rebelled, so it seems that they were hostile towards all organic life, regardless of race, age or affiliation.

[HellbirdIV]

Redbelle wrote...

The implication of the evidence provided states that Geth did engage in violent acts that resulted in the death of Quarians.

There's no question there; The issue is wether or not the geth killed only in self-defense and the quarians just kept attacking despite their losses (which their behaviour during the Battle for Rannoch certainly suggests) or if the geth really did attack civilians. There is no evidence that the geth did or did not attack civilians.

Redbelle wrote...

I'm
not saying the Geth innocent or guilty. But they had to have presented
the kind of threat that made living in deep space a better option than
remaining on world

While I personally believe the geth killed more quarians than the quarians did, I just want to refrain from arguing that as indisputable fact when there is no evidence to support it. Consider it the Agnostic argument; "We don't know." rather than "I don't believe so."

Necanor wrote...

Legion even admits, that the majority of the population was opposed to the Geth.

Legion states that the quarians opposed to martial law became fewer and fewer. There are a lot of horrible things that can be interpeted from that, but I'm going to assume they were merely a vocal minority overwhelmed by popular fear rather than, say, political dissidents executed by the government.

However, more people opposing the geth actually supports the theory that the geth fought primarily in self-defense and rarely if ever attacked civilian targets.

[wolfhowwl]

The Codex stated that Rannoch still has ecological damage from the Morning War around 300 years later.

Just speculating...

It is likely both sides were using incredibly destructive weapons at will. Large amounts of the Quarian populace probably perished in the exchange of WMDs or couldn't survive the devastation of the biosphere.

It would also make sense if the Geth had deployed chemical weapons against the Quarians given their own obvious immunity.

Given the Geth's role as labor units in industry and agriculture, Rannoch's economy would have been in disarray. As the situation grew worse and worse, many Quarians may have simply starved or died of exposure as society collapsed and infrastructure broke down.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 31 juillet 2013 - 11:35 .

[HellbirdIV]

wolfhowwl wrote...

The Codex stated that Rannoch still has ecological damage from the Morning War around 300 years later.

It is likely both sides were using incredibly destructive weapons at will.

How did the geth get a hold of WMDs though?

Geth notes that "the creators" did not devastate Rannoch as badly as Tuchanka.. And the quarians were a Citadel assosciate member allowed to have at least 5 Dreadnoughts under the Treaty of Farixen.. whereas the geth were... farming equipment.

Actually, how the hell did the quarians lose the war to begin with? Did they like, delegate 80% of their military jobs to geth platforms? Did their military just really, really suck without the geth? Maybe they did put VI's in charge of their nuclear stockpiles...

... Y'know, the more I think about it, the more I think the quarians just wanted to die.

[Sir DeLoria]

HellbirdIV wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

The Codex stated that Rannoch still has ecological damage from the Morning War around 300 years later.
It is likely both sides were using incredibly destructive weapons at will.

How did the geth get a hold of WMDs though?
Geth notes that "the creators" did not devastate Rannoch as badly as Tuchanka.. And the quarians were a Citadel assosciate member allowed to have at least 5 Dreadnoughts under the Treaty of Farixen.. whereas the geth were... farming equipment.

Actually, how the hell did the quarians lose the war to begin with? Did they like, delegate 80% of their military jobs to geth platforms? Did their military just really, really suck without the geth? Maybe they did put VI's in charge of their nuclear stockpiles...

... Y'know, the more I think about it, the more I think the quarians just wanted to die.

If you look at Rannoch, there doesn't seem to be any major ecological damage. I also highly doubt chemical, biological or nuclear weapons were used by the barely developed Geth. The more you think about it, the less sense the war makes.

[KaiserShep]

All the geth need to do is have access to any kind of conventional weapons and they're already in a position to gain the upper hand, provided their numbers are sufficient. They have the capacity to use any technology the Quarians have in place, so they could simply use their own resources against them. You'd think that the Quarians would've developed some kind of EMP to knock out the geth in groups to whittle down their collective effectiveness.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

wolfhowwl wrote...

Why are you against choice in an RPG?

Count your blessings, players who chose the Geth only got a cutscene of the Quarians being wiped.

If ME3 had handled this like DA:O's werewolves and elves we could have disposed of your precious Tali and Quarians in a much more...personal fashion.

Don't tease me like that. Now you're just making me hate ME3 even more...

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 31 juillet 2013 - 12:51 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor wrote...
Thanks, Captain Kar'Danna's last distress call and Tali's suicide were bad enough.

I thought they were well done. It's a shame the Quarians couldn't listen to reason, but they did it to themselves, and the fate they got was the fate that they made for themselves. At the end of the day, my Shepard simply stopped caring about trying to save the Quarians from themselves.

[RZIBARA]

- Scrub the Suicide Mission, save it for the end of ME3 (this alone gets rid of 12 variables)
- All Human Council choice shouldnt be there
- Make the Rachni Queen choice matter, and make the choice in ME3 be between the Queen and all of aralakh company (that means Grunt dies too).
- Morinth (why would i even save her anyways)