188 réponses à ce sujet

[Paul E Dangerously]

I'd like to keep incompetence to a minimum in general, because DA2 had Hawke holding the idiot ball way too damn often. I know the player will often see something coming that a character won't, but when my character is reasonably intelligent and is forced to be stupid? No, that's not a good thing.

[Inprea]

I'd have to agree. I really hate forced defeats or moments of incompetence. I believe Dragon Age Origins did it right whenever Loghain's men come to arrest you. If you are defeated you're locked up if you kill them all you walk out the door. It becomes especially annoying whenever it's a group of people that your character could have easily defeated and at times even defeats later on. I can't help but think of Mark of the Assassin whenever Hawke is forced to surrender.

Considering my Hawke was an end game spirit healer who had been very careful to disarm every trap possible, open every chest possible and kill every enemy she could I'm pretty darn sure she had the level to take them.

[tfcreative]

I thought the same thing the first time Tallis showed up. What was everyone doing while she danced around, killing one dude at a time, for that long?

[Paul E Dangerously]

tfcreative wrote...

I thought the same thing the first time Tallis showed up. What was everyone doing while she danced around, killing one dude at a time, for that long?

MotA was a vanity DLC, and I kind of expected that.

[Ibn_Shisha]

On the flipside of cutscene incompetence, how thrilling would it actually be if your Inquisitor, equipped with the Godslayer of Hit Points, the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch, and the Blood Dragon Armor, after the cutscene which shows him/her with the default Leather Armor of Whatever and Cracked Broadsword, comes out of said cutscene still equipped with the Godslayer of Hit Points, the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch, and the Blood Dragon Armor NOT the Leather Armor of Whatever and Cracked Broadsword.

[Maria Caliban]

Can you give an example of when a cutscene made Hawke look stupid?

Most examples of Hawke being plot-stupid seem to happen outside of cutscenes.

[devSin]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Can you give an example of when a cutscene made Hawke look stupid?

Wasn't there the kidnapping scene toward the end? I remember there was an issue with it (and that it was John's fault), but I don't remember if it gave Hawke cutscene stupidity or not.

I personally thought DA2 was done well in this regard. I only really remember the Arishok looking stupid for repeatedly making the same gesture throughout one of his conversations (guy, if you swing your arm over one more time!). I don't seem to recall Hawke shown being foolish or excessively incompetent anywhere (except if it was the intent); nothing like the forced plot stupid of ME3, that's for sure.

Modifié par devSin, 01 août 2013 - 10:07 .

[Wulfram]

devSin wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Can you give an example of when a cutscene made Hawke look stupid?

Wasn't there the kidnapping scene toward the end? I remember there was an issue with it (and that it was John's fault), but I don't remember if it gave Hawke cutscene stupidity or not.

Hawke just sort of stands there while crazy mage lady kills non-crazy Templar guy.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I can sort of see that happening too fast for Hawke to stop, but Hawke also does the same when Huon kills his wife.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 01 août 2013 - 10:40 .

[MarchWaltz]

I liked the part in metal gear 4 where Raidan and Vamp were fighting, and you (as snake) had to cover the fight. That is how it is done.

However, this is Bioware, and not Kojima.

[Naughty Bear]

Kai Leng was awesome.

I didn't run from Thessia!

Shut up!

Modifié par Naughty Bear, 01 août 2013 - 10:40 .

[Am1vf]

I would prefer incompetence to be integrated into the gameplay... like in XCOM. And being able to fail without having to reload, make me deal with the consequences of failure. That way cutscene incompetence wouldn't be out of place.

[CuriousArtemis]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I can sort of see that happening too fast for Hawke to stop, but Hawke also does the same when Huon kills his wife.

This gets me EVERY TIME. Especially since Hawke promises her that s/he will protect her and make sure Huon doesn't hurt her. I HATE that the game makes my Hawke an incompetent LIAR!!!

(And I say this as an otherwise huge fan of the game)

[John Epler]

Inprea wrote...

I'd have to agree. I really hate forced defeats or moments of incompetence. I believe Dragon Age Origins did it right whenever Loghain's men come to arrest you. If you are defeated you're locked up if you kill them all you walk out the door. It becomes especially annoying whenever it's a group of people that your character could have easily defeated and at times even defeats later on. I can't help but think of Mark of the Assassin whenever Hawke is forced to surrender.

Considering my Hawke was an end game spirit healer who had been very careful to disarm every trap possible, open every chest possible and kill every enemy she could I'm pretty darn sure she had the level to take them.

To be fair, I had a good twenty archers in that cutscene, and you were there without your party.

The Grace/Thrask example is totally fair, though. But I made a point of making the MOTA trap absurdly over-the-top so that it at least felt like 'okay, maybe this one's gonna be tough to fight your way out of.

That said, we're aware of the cutscene incompetence issue in a grander sense. We'll be taking special care to avoid situations where it feels as though even a minimum amount of effort would completely change the course of events - see, Grace/Thrask once again.

[Beerfish]

I think people in this thread are confusing cutscene incompetance with story incompetance. I would not even use the word incompetance in this discussion. Poor story choices perhaps.

[Enigmatick]

MarchWaltz wrote...

I liked the part in metal gear 4 where Raidan and Vamp were fighting, and you (as snake) had to cover the fight. That is how it is done.

However, this is Bioware, and not Kojima.

Don't ever point to MGS4 as how custscenes should be done. EVER.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Inprea wrote...

I'd have to agree. I really hate forced defeats or moments of incompetence. I believe Dragon Age Origins did it right whenever Loghain's men come to arrest you. If you are defeated you're locked up if you kill them all you walk out the door. It becomes especially annoying whenever it's a group of people that your character could have easily defeated and at times even defeats later on. I can't help but think of Mark of the Assassin whenever Hawke is forced to surrender.

Considering my Hawke was an end game spirit healer who had been very careful to disarm every trap possible, open every chest possible and kill every enemy she could I'm pretty darn sure she had the level to take them.

Actually you could fight Loghain's men and escape. If you chose to surrender than that was your decision.

[Inprea]

John Epler wrote...

Inprea wrote...

I'd have to agree. I really hate forced defeats or moments of incompetence. I believe Dragon Age Origins did it right whenever Loghain's men come to arrest you. If you are defeated you're locked up if you kill them all you walk out the door. It becomes especially annoying whenever it's a group of people that your character could have easily defeated and at times even defeats later on. I can't help but think of Mark of the Assassin whenever Hawke is forced to surrender.

Considering my Hawke was an end game spirit healer who had been very careful to disarm every trap possible, open every chest possible and kill every enemy she could I'm pretty darn sure she had the level to take them.

To be fair, I had a good twenty archers in that cutscene, and you were there without your party.

The Grace/Thrask example is totally fair, though. But I made a point of making the MOTA trap absurdly over-the-top so that it at least felt like 'okay, maybe this one's gonna be tough to fight your way out of.

That said, we're aware of the cutscene incompetence issue in a grander sense. We'll be taking special care to avoid situations where it feels as though even a minimum amount of effort would completely change the course of events - see, Grace/Thrask once again.

True. When you play a spirit healer though it's easy to get a feeling of invulnerability in DA2. It's not quite on par with Mass Effect 2 sentinel but it's there.  Especially whenever you have stone armor from the primal school as well as a few other defensive mechanics I forget the name of. This is were different difficulty settings can throw things for me a bit as well. Are hose guards set for casual or are we on full suicide mode? What difficulty level really represents the enemies we see in the cut cinematics? I tend to imagine them as being set for normal as typically the description of normal mode is, "how the game was meant to be played" or something similar.

I am glad to read that you'll be watching out for moment like the one with Grace. it does seem a bit strange that Hawke didn't just use a stone fist to nock her flat. Well actually I believe I had several companions with a long ranged knock down they could have used to set her down.

That said if those guards were set for casual/easy I don't care if they were twenty. I'm pretty darn sure Hawke could have soloed them.

Modifié par Inprea, 02 août 2013 - 04:26 .

[Inprea]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Inprea wrote...

I'd have to agree. I really hate forced defeats or moments of incompetence. I believe Dragon Age Origins did it right whenever Loghain's men come to arrest you. If you are defeated you're locked up if you kill them all you walk out the door. It becomes especially annoying whenever it's a group of people that your character could have easily defeated and at times even defeats later on. I can't help but think of Mark of the Assassin whenever Hawke is forced to surrender.

Considering my Hawke was an end game spirit healer who had been very careful to disarm every trap possible, open every chest possible and kill every enemy she could I'm pretty darn sure she had the level to take them.

Actually you could fight Loghain's men and escape. If you chose to surrender than that was your decision.

What are you talking about? They're three ways to resolve the situation. You can surrender, you can fight your way out or you can fight and lose. In the case of surrender or fight and lose you are locked up.

Surrendering wasn't the only way to be locked up. Indeed the suggested method for those seeking the most experience is to fight killing all the guards but one then let that one guard defeat you.

http://dragonage.wik...escue_the_Queen

[MisanthropePrime]

I'm only really okay with cutscene incompetence if there's some way your character could actually win the situation- meaning that I'm fine with a cutscene that triggers a "lose" state as long as there's also a "win" state that's based on something you've done in the past like helping an NPC, killing an enemy or just raising a stat high enough. Let's say in a hypothetical quest you've broken into the house of an Orlesian nobleman and he's caught you and is holding you up at swordpoint and waiting for the guard to come get you. Let's also say earlier you did a quest for his wife and, upon seeing this, she hits him over the head with a bottle of wine allowing you to escape and skip being captured- or your character invested significant points into dexterity and manage to disarm him as soon as he pulls the sword out- but failing those two options you go to jail and have to do a mission like the one in Fort Drakon in DAO.

[TheKomandorShepard]

You mean situations like that you can tell talis "i will kill you" and hawke stand there like idiot two steps from talis and she slowy goes away?

[snackrat]

What bothered me most was the white lilies. You can talk to your mother and she ACTUALLY SAYS she received white lilies from a suitor ("nice to now I can still be courted, teehee") and yet DESPITE KNOWING THIS is a murderer's CALLING CARD you can do nothing but say "oh that's nice mum".

And then she disappears and you're just "oh she probably went shopping" until Bodahn mentions the flowers again, then Hawke acts like they JUST HEARD ABOUT IT

[Fredward]

Inprea wrote...
True. When you play a spirit healer though it's easy to get a feeling of invulnerability in DA2. It's not quite on par with Mass Effect 2 sentinel but it's there.  Especially whenever you have stone armor from the primal school as well as a few other defensive mechanics I forget the name of. This is were different difficulty settings can throw things for me a bit as well. Are hose guards set for casual or are we on full suicide mode? What difficulty level really represents the enemies we see in the cut cinematics? I tend to imagine them as being set for normal as typically the description of normal mode is, "how the game was meant to be played" or something similar.

I am glad to read that you'll be watching out for moment like the one with Grace. it does seem a bit strange that Hawke didn't just use a stone fist to nock her flat. Well actually I believe I had several companions with a long ranged knock down they could have used to set her down.

That said if those guards were set for casual/easy I don't care if they were twenty. I'm pretty darn sure Hawke could have soloed them.

There's a point where you have to separate gameplay from the story, this is that point. My force mage Hawke could have pulled everyone in one tight little circle of human flesh and pelted them with firestorms and a cone of cold but she didn't because even if you're a godlike mage you are not going to be fast enough to avoid becoming a pincushion. I realize that in battles you can survive like fifty arrows (I have a screenshot of my Hawke smirking with an arrow in the face) but if there had been an option to kill them all and my Hawke walked out not looking like a porcupine I would have been peeved.