188 réponses à ce sujet

[Travie]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

I'd like to keep incompetence to a minimum in general, because DA2 had Hawke holding the idiot ball way too damn often. I know the player will often see something coming that a character won't, but when my character is reasonably intelligent and is forced to be stupid? No, that's not a good thing.

I ended up thinking that Hawke actually WAS an idiot, and my dislike for that character grows everytime I remember it. 

[PsychoBlonde]

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

It wouldn't hurt to bring back the "Meanwhile, in Denerim . . ." cutscenes where the PC just is not present.  *Then* you can have it play out however you like.

Ditto. Few movies focus on the protagonist 100% of the time anyway.

They did that right in ME2 as well, when the Collectors attack Horizon and Kaidan/Ashley gets overwhelmed.

There are bad ways to do this, of course.  For example, if the Big Bad is a mystery and you spend most of the game finding out who he/she/it is and what they're up to, it would be a COLOSSAL error to have a cut scene with the Big Bad plotting while the PC is still running around going "derp, I wonder who's behind all this".  That would be terrible.

I find it to be most useful when you have something that is initially introduced as a sideline but that plays a larger role later on.  It's also a great way to establish a constant presence for characters that don't directly appear very often but still do Important Stuff.  It also assists in keeping to the Show, Don't Tell principle.  There's a huge difference between a quick "hey, PC, I heard this rumor about X" and seeing a cut scene where the NPC *actually hears the rumor about X*.  There is a LOT that can be done to enrich your story with this method.

[PsychoBlonde]

Travie wrote...

I ended up thinking that Hawke actually WAS an idiot, and my dislike for that character grows everytime I remember it. 

I dunno about "idiot" but certainly not very proactive.  Srsly, you're going to let AVELINE talk to the ARISHOK after you've spent half the act dealing with the guy?  Srsly, you're going to let Meredith get away with this whole "you must take sides" thing?

Pushover.

[Ianamus]

I agree. I've just finished playing the latest tomb raider and while I loved the game some of the worst points were when Lara watched people being killed or kidnapped during cutscenes and just gaped at them despite having a bow, pistol, assault rifle and shotgun all on-hand and ready to fire. Sometimes I was stalking carefully around corners ready for an ambush and a cutscene has her walk right into the trap I could tell was there, leaving me a sitting duck. Out of a fantastic game those were some of the only parts I really didn't like.

Modifié par EJ107, 02 août 2013 - 07:25 .

[Ieldra]

Zobo wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Perhaps they're just less stupid.

Well, if you are captured, enemies can pretty much do whatever they want to you, all the more so in medieval times. During war the most probable scenario for you will be to get tortured or/and raped and not to get some lucky escape because the plot say so as well. I'm pretty sure there are no Geneva Conventions in Thedas, no to mention in some modern conflicts those agreements do not work even today. Victory or death mentality has perfectly logical grounds behind it.

I was talking about killing yourself out of shame.

[Plaintiff]

I think the Inquisitor should put their armor on backwards, and fall flat on their face every time they walk into a room.

[LinksOcarina]

simfamSP wrote...

I know, sometimes it's necessary, but it's really frustrating when your super-powerful, bad-ass, mage/ninja avatar of death is blown away by a summer breeze.

Look at Thane vs Kai-Leng, such an awesome scene, only ruined by Shepard and company standing around like a lump of coals (and Thane's dramatic pause before shooting.) I mean, there could have atleast been Cerberus reinforcements entering the scene, distracting Shepard and company from Thane. Hell, that could have added an entire new gamplay section in between!

Now, I'm fully aware than DA:I will be made by different people, but since you guys are looking for a more cinematic experience, it'd be good if this is kept in mind when writing/directing/whateveryourdoing these scenes.

You guys never said anything when they did this in past games though...

Is the ludonarrative dissonance that strong now, or are we just more sussectable to it because we recognize it as an issue as the games go forward? 

[Zobo]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Zobo wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Perhaps they're just less stupid.

Well, if you are captured, enemies can pretty much do whatever they want to you, all the more so in medieval times. During war the most probable scenario for you will be to get tortured or/and raped and not to get some lucky escape because the plot say so as well. I'm pretty sure there are no Geneva Conventions in Thedas, no to mention in some modern conflicts those agreements do not work even today. Victory or death mentality has perfectly logical grounds behind it.

I was talking about killing yourself out of shame.

You personally may percive it as stupid, but does that automatically make it an inappropriete worldwiev to roleplay? I think not.

Modifié par Zobo, 02 août 2013 - 08:02 .

[devSin]

LinksOcarina wrote...

You guys never said anything when they did this in past games though...

You're kidding, right?

John can very much tell you that the issue came up loudly for DA2. That and the audio montage in place of Bethany's death were widely discussed topics back then. ;-)

It's just the ME3 stuff is a whole new level of stupid (I've never seen it that bad before), and being the most recent game, it makes the most sense to use as example.

Modifié par devSin, 02 août 2013 - 08:08 .

[LinksOcarina]

devSin wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

You guys never said anything when they did this in past games though...

You're kidding, right?

John can very much tell you that the issue came up loudly for DA2. That and the audio montage in place of Bethany's death were widely discussed topics back then. ;-)

It's just the ME3 stuff is a whole new level of stupid (I've never seen it that bad before), and being the most recent game, it makes the most sense to use as example.

I'm refering to Dragon Age Origins, KoToR, and the like, which had similar problems where you sit around and watch people do stuff a LOT.

It honestly doesn't matter much if you complained then or not anyway, if were being fair its still a dissonance that is either going to be rectified, or not. 

[esper]

devSin wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

You guys never said anything when they did this in past games though...

You're kidding, right?

John can very much tell you that the issue came up loudly for DA2. That and the audio montage in place of Bethany's death were widely discussed topics back then. ;-)

It's just the ME3 stuff is a whole new level of stupid (I've never seen it that bad before), and being the most recent game, it makes the most sense to use as example.

But Hawke are doing something doing that scene. They place they weapon in attack position and goes inbetween the ogre and the rest of the group. The ogre are killing the sibling in a matter of seconds, no one could react to that (sadly).

[Liamv2]

Plaintiff wrote...

I think the Inquisitor should put their armor on backwards, and fall flat on their face every time they walk into a room.

I support this. GET ON IT BIOWER 

Modifié par Liamv2, 02 août 2013 - 08:17 .

[Fredward]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

There's a point where you have to separate gameplay from the story, this is that point.

No, there absolutely is not.  There is no point where this is necessary.  Games should literally never do this.

I value your subjective opinion while simultaneously disagreeing with it.

[devSin]

esper wrote...

But Hawke are doing something doing that scene. They place they weapon in attack position and goes inbetween the ogre and the rest of the group. The ogre are killing the sibling in a matter of seconds, no one could react to that (sadly).

John's was the murder-knife scene in the Deep Roads (if you don't take Anders or choose to just let her die).

Apparently, he pans the camera away or something, and you just hear the stab and death gurgle offscreen (if I'm even remembering it right; I haven't played DA2 much, and not in a long time).

I remember he talked about that one a lot and being disappointed with it (the Deep Roads lyrium idol scene too, though I don't remember the specific criticism for that one).

[EvilChani]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Yesyesyesyesyes

John Epler wrote...

To be fair, I had a good twenty archers in that cutscene, and you were there without your party.

The Grace/Thrask example is totally fair, though. But I made a point of making the MOTA trap absurdly over-the-top so that it at least felt like 'okay, maybe this one's gonna be tough to fight your way out of.

That said, we're aware of the cutscene incompetence issue in a grander sense. We'll be taking special care to avoid situations where it feels as though even a minimum amount of effort would completely change the course of events - see, Grace/Thrask once again.

Thank you, very much.


*to the forum, not you in particular*

One thing I also would NOT like is story instances with invincible characters. Like, the Kai Leng fight on Thessia--that fight basically involved me sniping him two or three times in a row, him rushing back to his shield generator, then being impervious to attack while I snipe away clips of ammo at him getting annoyed, while that pidly helicopter pretends to be dangerous.

I hate that fight more than any other in the game.

I hated Kai Leng period. He ruined the damned game between teh Thessia fight and then having Thane - an assassin so well trained and awesome that he should've ben able to put a bullet in Kai Leng's head before the SOB ever knew he was there - stand frozen for two seconds so Kai Leng can kill him. Worse, Shepard - who, in my game loved Thane with all of her heart - stands around like a dipsh!t as well. Really?? Shepard, who is apparently so freaking special and awesome that she's the only one in the world who can possibly win against the reapers, stands around with her thumb up her ass while the love of her life gets skewered by a freaking ninja wannabe?? God, how I hated that freaking game. 

That said, DA2 did have too many of those "Durrr...I'm an incompetent ******" moments, but there weren't so many of them that they ruined the whole game. It is reassuring, at least, that someone on the DA team acknowledges the problem and wants to remedy it. 

[esper]

devSin wrote...

esper wrote...

But Hawke are doing something doing that scene. They place they weapon in attack position and goes inbetween the ogre and the rest of the group. The ogre are killing the sibling in a matter of seconds, no one could react to that (sadly).

John's was the murder-knife scene in the Deep Roads (if you don't take Anders or choose to just let her die).

Apparently, he pans the camera away or something, and you just hear the stab and death gurgle offscreen (if I'm even remembering it right; I haven't played DA2 much, and not in a long time).

I remember he talked about that one a lot and being disappointed with it (the Deep Roads lyrium idol scene too, though I don't remember the specific criticism for that one).

Oh.... I always play mage so Bethany death is Ogre for me. My bad:pinched:

I don't know if the killing itself is bad, I don't really have an opionion on it. (Though if they don't do it fast you can wonder why.)

I just think it is bad because you are forced to do it. Whereever it is the right thing or not is irrellevant. Bethany would be Hawke's last sibling, Hawke might simply not have the strenght to do it themself.

[devSin]

Yeah, the criticism of that scene wasn't cutscene incompetence. I think it was just that there was no emotional impact from just having her die offscreen with the camera pointing at the wall or something. (I can't remember if John only did Bethany's version or if he just talked about hers because he liked that line so much. She usually dies in the beginning for me too.)

The scene where the lyrium idol gets nabbed may have been cutscene stupidity, but I can't remember it well enough to say.

Modifié par devSin, 02 août 2013 - 09:08 .

[devSin]

I think it was more the manner of how everyone was miles away or something? Or maybe the idol was magicking itself between characters?

If I'm remembering correctly (which very well might not be the case), there was something that was supposed to happen in that scene, and John either couldn't make it work right or didn't have time for it, so it ended up being hobbled together in a way that apparently left it open to criticism (pretty much all I remember is that there was an issue with it and that John talked about it).

Modifié par devSin, 02 août 2013 - 09:12 .

[esper]

Well, they do notice the door closing they are just not fast enough.

The worst case is really Houn for me. Simply because there is no good reason to leave that woman alone.

[Maria Caliban]

'Impassable' doors aren't really a cutscene issue but more a gameplay/level construction issue.

LinksOcarina wrote...

You guys never said anything when they did this in past games though...

When BG 1 came out, people complained about the scene where Gorian fights the Big Bad outside Candlekeep. Gorian tells you to run and you're forced to do so.

When BG 2 came out, people complained that you're ambushed and dragged into Iranicus' dungeon without a chance to fight your assailants.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 02 août 2013 - 09:18 .

[devSin]

Maria Caliban wrote...

When BG 1 came out, people complained about the scene where Gorian fights the Big Bad outside Candlekeep. Gorian tells you to run and you're forced to do so.

Gorion and his magic missiles.

Meanwhile, if you shoot at him in Candlekeep, he godbolts you.

[PsychoBlonde]

devSin wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

When BG 1 came out, people complained about the scene where Gorian fights the Big Bad outside Candlekeep. Gorian tells you to run and you're forced to do so.

Gorion and his magic missiles.

Meanwhile, if you shoot at him in Candlekeep, he godbolts you.

Gorion shooting magic missiles like that was the only spell he knew was actually a *bug* that was fixed in the Enhanced Edition.  The fight looks a lot more spectacular when Gorion casts actual high-level spells instead of running himself out of magic missiles and then trying to stab Sarevok with a DAGGER.