188 réponses à ce sujet

[devSin]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Gorion shooting magic missiles like that was the only spell he knew was actually a *bug* that was fixed in the Enhanced Edition.  The fight looks a lot more spectacular when Gorion casts actual high-level spells instead of running himself out of magic missiles and then trying to stab Sarevok with a DAGGER.

It was not a bug, I assure you.

He was scripted to shoot lightning bolt at one of the orcs, fire arrow at Tamoko, one or two melf's acid arrows, and then a sequence of ForceSpell()ed magic missiles, and then he would whip out his little blade and run after the big metal-plated guy.

Trent may have "enhanced" the fight, but the original worked exactly as it was intended.

Modifié par devSin, 02 août 2013 - 09:34 .

[PsychoBlonde]

To be fair, DA2 had one of my favorite moments of PC badassness in it, as well when you go to rescue Feynriel. If you're playing a sarcastic character you get to throw the murder knife. Feynriel even ****es at you about it, and you can basically tell him "I'm awesome, so shut up, I'll throw knives at the dude holding you hostage if I want to".

Not that I want the ENTIRE GAME to be some kind of macho brofest.  I don't mind it when the PC tries and fails.  What's frustrating is when they DON'T EVEN TRY because of  . . . reasons.

Modifié par PsychoBlonde, 02 août 2013 - 09:36 .

[PsychoBlonde]

devSin wrote...

It was not a bug, I assure you.

He was scripted to shoot lightning bolt at one of the orcs, fire arrow at tamoko, one or two melf's acid arrows, and then a sequence of ForceSpell()ed magic missiles, and then he would whip out his little blade and run after the big metal-plated guy.

Trent may have "enhanced" the fight, but the original worked exactly as it was intended.

Heh, it was described as a bug on the forum report.  There were a couple of other mages in the game who didn't script properly and only threw a ton of magic missiles before commencing melee attacks.

[devSin]

Isn't that the one where you can also get Varric to "negotiate" for you?

One of the better cutscene variations in the game IMO. :-)

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Heh, it was described as a bug on the forum report.  There were a couple of other mages in the game who didn't script properly and only threw a ton of magic missiles before commencing melee attacks.

There were a number of scripting bugs for spellcasters in BG/TotSC (though nowhere near as many as BG2), but Gorion's cutscene script always worked correctly.

It may have been silly, but it was no bug. :-)

Modifié par devSin, 02 août 2013 - 09:42 .

[ScarMK]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

To be fair, DA2 had one of my favorite moments of PC badassness in it, as well when you go to rescue Feynriel. If you're playing a sarcastic character you get to throw the murder knife. Feynriel even ****es at you about it, and you can basically tell him "I'm awesome, so shut up, I'll throw knives at the dude holding you hostage if I want to".

Not that I want the ENTIRE GAME to be some kind of macho brofest.  I don't mind it when the PC tries and fails.  What's frustrating is when they DON'T EVEN TRY because of  . . . reasons.

I'm pretty sure that was restricted to rogue characters, not sarcastic ones.

[Twisted Path]

It often seems that cutscenes just follow completely different rules from the gameplay segments of Biowware games. Stuff like your character forgetting that he/she has magic powers during a cutscene, or being able to one-shot and kill a character who's wearing force-field generating armor and would have taken a lot of hits to go down in the combat section of the game.

I understand there always has to be some of that but I would love to see the combat mechanics and character statistics taken into account in non-combat situations more.

It's also annoying when a player character doesn't catch on to an obvious plot twist that the player saw a mile away (Mass Effect's Leviathan DLC is a good example of that, along with the serial killer plot in DA2,) but I'm not sure what the best solution to that would be.

[Bhryaen]

DAO has plenty of such scenes. The warehouse blood mage boss scene is the worst. You open the door, look in, see a nasty-powerful mage across the room, decide how you're going to enter the room stealthily, plan your attack, maybe cast a spell ineffectually, then *whoosh* cutscene of everyone striding stupidly several paces into that room, the blood mage boss saying, "Hey, I'm gonna kill you!" *cutscene ends* Nowww fight. My characters know tactics until such scripted stupidity. Now, if he had walked out of a secret door behind us, fine, we're stuck facing him head-on, but why would we intentionally put ourselves at such a disadvantage? (Well, unless you're soloing as a 100% magic resist Templar or something...)

Other notable DAO stupidWarden cutscene moments include:
- Denerim bandits or pickpocket-fail soldiers unambiguously positioned in firing squad formation... so my lightly-clad mage is cutscened to stride right into the center of the crossfire for a pre-battle chat
- Uldred gets to torture a mage fully into an abomination before the stupidWarden interrupts... to say, "Hey, stop."
- Running nearly halfway into the otherwise empty room before noticing the Ishal ogre. "Oh, THAT was what the growling and thumping on the ceiling was- thought it was the wind."
- After sneaking in on every other demon in the Circle Tower to preemptively blast with a Paralysis Explosion first, the cutscene has the stupidWarden walking casually up to a Sloth Demon until it says something... Even the companions make at least one comment before being overcome. The stupidWarden just sort of nods off. "Right, then, I'll just get a pillow from my pack- if you don't mind."
- One character sneaks up to the ghostly elf up on the platform in the Ruins *sudden cutscene of everyone on the platform and being ambushed by abominations*
- "Look, a ghostly elf child in the middle of the room. I'll sneak up and-" *cutscene putting everyone in the middle of the room with undead coming from all directions."
- An Aeducan remaining silent as they see Bhelen and Harrowmont in the streets of the Commons

Anyway, yeah, I hope they get less contrived in DAI with how they let cutscenes determine our characters' actions...

[David7204]

I hope players understand there's a huge difference between Cutscene Incompetence and Gameplay and Story Segregation.

Developers should not be obligated to integrate every possible or even some gameplay abilities into cutscenes. It would almost certainly either necessitate incredibly dull gameplay abilities or simply make any kind of 'active' cutscene with danger present impossible.

Also, it's very important to distinguish between problems in gameplay and problems in cutscenes, which, frankly, most players seem to be incredibly poor at. The fight on Thessia with Leng has been brought up many times, but it's much more of a gameplay issue than a cutscene one.

Modifié par David7204, 03 août 2013 - 02:23 .

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

I hope players understand there's a huge difference between Cutscene Incompetence and Gameplay and Story Segregation.

Developers should not be obligated to integrate every possible or even some gameplay abilities into cutscenes. It would almost certainly either necessitate incredibly dull gameplay abilities or simply make any kind of 'active' cutscene with danger present impossible.

Also, it's very important to distinguish between problems in gameplay and problems in cutscenes, which, frankly, most players seem to be incredibly poor at. The fight on Thessia with Leng has been brought up many times, but it's much more of a gameplay issue than a cutscene one.

Too late David a member of BW just publicly acknowledged the issue...

[KiwiQuiche]

David is always right, Ares. Always. Everyone else are bumbling morons who don't know what those terms mean.

[David7204]

Thank you for the immense compliment.

[Realmzmaster]

AresKeith wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I hope players understand there's a huge difference between Cutscene Incompetence and Gameplay and Story Segregation.

Developers should not be obligated to integrate every possible or even some gameplay abilities into cutscenes. It would almost certainly either necessitate incredibly dull gameplay abilities or simply make any kind of 'active' cutscene with danger present impossible.

Also, it's very important to distinguish between problems in gameplay and problems in cutscenes, which, frankly, most players seem to be incredibly poor at. The fight on Thessia with Leng has been brought up many times, but it's much more of a gameplay issue than a cutscene one.

Too late David a member of BW just publicly acknowledged the issue...

John Epler acknowledged that there was some cutscene incompetence. He did not reference the example that David7204 made regarding the fight on Thessia. In fact he stated:

John Epler wrote...

To be fair, I had a good twenty archers in that cutscene, and you were there without your party.

The
Grace/Thrask example is totally fair, though. But I made a point of
making the MOTA trap absurdly over-the-top so that it at least felt like
'okay, maybe this one's gonna be tough to fight your way out of.

That
said, we're aware of the cutscene incompetence issue in a grander
sense. We'll be taking special care to avoid situations where it feels
as though even a minimum amount of effort would completely change the
course of events - see, Grace/Thrask once again.

So Epler was looking at in a grander sense. Epler was refering to a post where the poster stated that Hawke could have taken the enemy on single handed instead of surrendering. Other posters noted that Hawke would come out looking like a pincushion or dead. So it was not a case of cutscene incompetence.

[AresKeith]

Realmzmaster wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I hope players understand there's a huge difference between Cutscene Incompetence and Gameplay and Story Segregation.

Developers should not be obligated to integrate every possible or even some gameplay abilities into cutscenes. It would almost certainly either necessitate incredibly dull gameplay abilities or simply make any kind of 'active' cutscene with danger present impossible.

Also, it's very important to distinguish between problems in gameplay and problems in cutscenes, which, frankly, most players seem to be incredibly poor at. The fight on Thessia with Leng has been brought up many times, but it's much more of a gameplay issue than a cutscene one.

Too late David a member of BW just publicly acknowledged the issue...

John Epler acknowledged that there was some cutscene incompetence. He did not reference the example that David7204 made regarding the fight on Thessia. In fact he stated:

John Epler wrote...

To be fair, I had a good twenty archers in that cutscene, and you were there without your party.

The
Grace/Thrask example is totally fair, though. But I made a point of
making the MOTA trap absurdly over-the-top so that it at least felt like
'okay, maybe this one's gonna be tough to fight your way out of.

That
said, we're aware of the cutscene incompetence issue in a grander
sense. We'll be taking special care to avoid situations where it feels
as though even a minimum amount of effort would completely change the
course of events - see, Grace/Thrask once again.

So Epler was looking at in a grander sense. Epler was refering to a post where the poster stated that Hawke could have taken the enemy on single handed instead of surrendering. Other posters noted that Hawke would come out looking like a pincushion or dead. So it was not a case of cutscene incompetence.

I'm not talking about the Thessia scene

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Nrieh wrote...

there should have been some way to succeed at that--though not necessarily by charging straight in.

Well, DA2 has quite a lot of moments, where 'perefect timing' and 'last-second-rescue' do not happen. And I don't thik it's necessarily a bad thing, to be honest. The less overused tropes - the better, imo. 

Like, 'Nothing you can save, that can't be saved', you know...
(Damn now I just NEED to see a DA2 vid with this track.. 8P)

I guess, but I was more getting at the fact that I prefer neither success nor failure to be scripted as the sole available outcome, especially when it makes sense for both options (if not more) to be valid.

Huon's case was a particular peeve because the PC not only gets to his wife waaay before he does, but has plenty of time to prepare contingency plans in case the guy is indeed a blood mage. At the very least the PC should have been in the same screen as Huon and Nyssa before she gets killed, because the party is supposed to be right there.

Had it made sense in context for Nyssa to die to matter what, I probably would have been ok with it. I have zero problem with the party failing to arrive in the heroic nick of time once in a while, or a plan failing to work. That should happen! But it should be logical why it happened. We should be shown how it went wrong, not told 'it just did'.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 03 août 2013 - 03:00 .

[David7204]

I don't see any cutscene problems with the fight with Leng on Thessia.

[legbamel]

You mean the part where my LI is right next to me and Liara makes a mad dash to save me even though I've been nothing but mean to her? To be fair, that's not Shep's incompetence, though. Falling in that hole, maybe, but not who grabbed her hand.

[David7204]

Yes. That's not a problem. BioWare is not obligated to tailor each cutscene specifically to your preferred order of squadmates from most-liked to least-liked.

[David7204]

First of all, you have any clue whatsoever the difficulties behind putting the proper weapons in cutscenes? Any clue at all? You think weapons can just be swapped out like the cover on your phone? No. Different weapons have different stances, different ammunition capacities, different lengths, different effects, different fire rates. All of that has to be accounted for. All of it. Nothing is 'forced' into a cutscene. That's incredibly silly.

I tell you what. Why don't you give me a list of all modern games that have characters equip AND USE the weapons the player chooses in cutscenes with no mistakes. No weapons with five shot capacities firing six rounds. No weapons that fire at 10 rounds per second firing at 15.

Secondly, did you even read what you wrote? I say that that problems with the fight on Thessia are due to gameplay, not cutscenes. And you counter that by telling me there's a huge problem with the gunship because it can't be destroyed...in gameplay. Thanks for supporting my point right there.

Filament wrote...

They're not "obligated" to make a good game.

They have the right to make their games without being subjected to very ridiculous and hypocritical standards. Proclaiming that BioWare cutscenes are 'Cutscene Incompetence' for such content when every or near every other video game in existence gets a free pass is absurd. You don't have to like it. But you don't to get to make up names for it that clearly aren't true.

Modifié par David7204, 03 août 2013 - 03:39 .

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

That's your list? DA 2? That's the list you can give me that fullfills the requirements of your idiotic demand? So then, every game is existence aside from DA 2 is full of 'genetic idiots For The Plot' then?

DA2 had atleast 11 months of development and it did something ME3 couldn't do