326 réponses à ce sujet

[dreamgazer]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

People have largely covered the scientific and nonsensical issues, however there is another makes Synthesis utterly nightmarish. All those already reaperised forces, the Husks, Banshees, Marauders and etc. They are implied to have regained a form of sentience. Imagine you were essentially a zombie abomination that ravaged people by the hundreds and brutally tore them apart. Better even, remember the Asari with PTSD? How her captain became a banshee and tortured a fifteen year old girl and her family?

Suddenly, you remember everything. The anguish and pain you have inflicted, and monstrosity you have become. Even a hybrid mind is not capable of absorbing the severity of such a revelation and likely to be driven into madness all over again. Synthesis is torture beyond words to Reaperised "people."

Kinda reminds me of this movie, minus the "torture beyond words":

[ruggly]

I still need to watch that. I've heard nothing but good things about it.

[Element Engine]

I just think Synthesis is an incredibly cheesy concept.

I'd rank the endings as...

1. Destroy
2. Control
3. Synthesis
4. Refusal (C'mon... really?)

[jtav]

Then you provide counseling. I have a *real* problem with the "put them out of their misery" argument because you simply aren't qualified to make the judgment that such an existence must be unendurable. If even one ex-husk chooses to live, you've erred grievously.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

dreamgazer wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

People have largely covered the scientific and nonsensical issues, however there is another makes Synthesis utterly nightmarish. All those already reaperised forces, the Husks, Banshees, Marauders and etc. They are implied to have regained a form of sentience. Imagine you were essentially a zombie abomination that ravaged people by the hundreds and brutally tore them apart. Better even, remember the Asari with PTSD? How her captain became a banshee and tortured a fifteen year old girl and her family?

Suddenly, you remember everything. The anguish and pain you have inflicted, and monstrosity you have become. Even a hybrid mind is not capable of absorbing the severity of such a revelation and likely to be driven into madness all over again. Synthesis is torture beyond words to Reaperised "people."

Kinda reminds me of this movie, minus the "torture beyond words":

Mmmm.... Teresa Palmer.

[AresKeith]

jtav wrote...

Then you provide counseling. I have a *real* problem with the "put them out of their misery" argument because you simply aren't qualified to make the judgment that such an existence must be unendurable. If even one ex-husk chooses to live, you've erred grievously.

Would anybody want to live as a husk?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

jtav wrote...

Then you provide counseling. I have a *real* problem with the "put them out of their misery" argument because you simply aren't qualified to make the judgment that such an existence must be unendurable. If even one ex-husk chooses to live, you've erred grievously.

The husk's life is going to suck no matter how you slice it. Killing it is probably the merciful route. I don't think it's an error.

That said, I think the whole concept of a husk regaining sentience is just ridiculous.

[CrutchCricket]

o Ventus wrote...
Exactly what considers "the disconnect"?

Referenced as a point in time, it's the moment where the entity disconnects from lesser empathies and thoughts. It's really all in the thread.

Dodging the point. You're doing it.

Not getting the point. You're doing it.

It's called an analogy. There is literally no other real life example that can be used. Do you ever plan on acknowledging my point?

Nope because God is a loaded term and a completely unnecessary one to this debate. I'll repeat my point: any being has no reason to care about things far beneath its level of existence.

Why are we assuming it just "goes off and does its own thing"? Both the paragon and the renegade epilogues show that it indeed does NOT "go off and do its own thing".

Because of the logic of its development. Not the first time Bioware has sorely missed the point on certain things.

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
Extrapolation from a theoretical case would work better. That said my point stands. I really think you're using examples from other universes wrong here. What I think you're saying is that: it's logical in that universe, and it happened in that universe, so it seems likely in Mass Effect. I don't quite think that really stands as an argument. But that's just how I'm interpreting your argument.

Why? Like I said the context of the universe is not relevant to the case. Indeed it's easy to imagine it as a theoretical case that is simply used in that particular universe. None of my ideas are directly tied to Mass Effect or Watchmen or any other specific fiction. All of it is a thought experiment on what such an advanced mind would really be like.

And with that, I think we're going to have to disagree here. Just don't compare me to Seival. I'm not that wacky. This isn't something we can really argue with in the long run. It'll just end up being another 'is peanut butter a condiment' argument.

lol sorry, I meant no offense by it. But if you saw some of the things said in that control thread... Let's just say "zero understanding of basic computing" is putting it mildly.

The orbs alone are useless, of course. I'm not arguing that. I think the Leviathan is using the orb to amplify its signal and to boost its range. And if it can do that with a few orbs to one Reaper in a few seconds....

I think the orbs are transmitters, primarily.  But the source is bound to be more powerful.

As for Reapers vs Leviathans, if the former at in any way functional the latter have no chance no matter how many orbs they have. Even if we grant that a Leviathan is equal to a Reaper (and I strongly disagree with this) it's still three vs thousands. And that's not taking into account the astronomical rate of upgrading the Reapers are capable of now that they've been freed from the shackles of the cycle.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 02 août 2013 - 08:51 .

[Enhanced]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

People have largely covered the scientific and nonsensical issues, however there is another makes Synthesis utterly nightmarish. All those already reaperised forces, the Husks, Banshees, Marauders and etc. They are implied to have regained a form of sentience. Imagine you were essentially a zombie abomination that ravaged people by the hundreds and brutally tore them apart. Better even, remember the Asari with PTSD? How her captain became a banshee and tortured a fifteen year old girl and her family?

Suddenly, you remember everything. The anguish and pain you have inflicted, and monstrosity you have become. Even a hybrid mind is not capable of absorbing the severity of such a revelation and likely to be driven into madness all over again. Synthesis is torture beyond words to Reaperised "people."

The one husk stops and looks up into the sky.  That's not much of an implication that they all regain sentience and remember everything. But, if that does really happen, who are you to decide they shouldn't get to live?

Modifié par Enhanced, 02 août 2013 - 09:01 .

[Element Engine]

Can you imagine a Husk bagging your groceries?

"We thank.. you.. for.. shopping at.. GalacticFood.. Co.... Have.. a .. nice .........day."

*Forced creepy smile*

[CrutchCricket]

Element Engine wrote...

Can you imagine a Husk bagging your groceries?

"We thank.. you.. for.. shopping at.. GalacticFood.. Co.... Have.. a .. nice .........day."

*Forced creepy smile*

And then you realize it's an ME1 husk and its EMP thing just shorted out your phone and the checkout scanner.

[o Ventus]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Referenced as a point in time, it's the moment where the entity disconnects from lesser empathies and thoughts. It's really all in the thread.

And where is the indication that this ever happens, or will happen?

Not getting the point. You're doing it.

No, I get it, it's just a poor, made-up point that isn't reinforced by anything in the narrative.

Nope because God is a loaded term and a completely unnecessary one to this debate. I'll repeat my point: any being has no reason to care about things far beneath its level of existence.

Of course they do. Do you have any idea how ecosystems function?

Because of the logic of its development. Not the first time Bioware has sorely missed the point on certain things.

"Miss the point"? Is it possible to miss a point that you're making now?

Why are you trying to pass yourself off as some leading authority on how a godlike entity would act in any given scenario? How in the entire **** do you know?

[dreamgazer]

What happens when a Reaper throws a temper tantrum?

[Killdren88]

what I dislike about synthesis is that you allow the Reapers to get away with the eons of genocide and murder without no retribution. They are murderous monsters without no regret for their crimes. They deserve death and then some.

[CrutchCricket]

o Ventus wrote...
And where is the indication that this ever happens, or will happen?

Logic. And even the holokid says it.

Of course they do. Do you have any idea how ecosystems function?

An ecosystem functions on caring? You don't say?

Why are you trying to pass yourself off as some leading authority on how a godlike entity would act in any given scenario? How in the entire **** do you know?

Getting a bit personal there again?

It's all in the thread and if you'd bother to read it, you'd see that little of it originates with me. And speaking as objectively as possible, even if it makes me sound a tad arrogant, I'd rather stick to my theory which at least required some thought in adapting the ideas of others, than to blindly accept what a slideshow tells me or to join the legions of haters mindlessly repeating "hurr Shepard will start Reaping again lolololol"

We're done here. Take it or leave it.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

CrutchCricket wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
Extrapolation from a theoretical case would work better. That said my point stands. I really think you're using examples from other universes wrong here. What I think you're saying is that: it's logical in that universe, and it happened in that universe, so it seems likely in Mass Effect. I don't quite think that really stands as an argument. But that's just how I'm interpreting your argument.

Why? Like I said the context of the universe is not relevant to the case. Indeed it's easy to imagine it as a theoretical case that is simply used in that particular universe. None of my ideas are directly tied to Mass Effect or Watchmen or any other specific fiction. All of it is a thought experiment on what such an advanced mind would really be like.

Then I think it's a case of me coming to a different particular conclusion in this thought experiment. I'm trying to add the context of different technology, circumstances, etc. into why I think this particular advanced mind would exist versus another advanced mind from the same (or different) universe.

The orbs alone are useless, of course. I'm not arguing that. I think the Leviathan is using the orb to amplify its signal and to boost its range. And if it can do that with a few orbs to one Reaper in a few seconds....

I think the orbs are transmitters, primarily.  But the source is bound to be more powerful.

As for Reapers vs Leviathans, if the former at in any way functional the latter have no chance no matter how many orbs they have. Even if we grant that a Leviathan is equal to a Reaper (and I strongly disagree with this) it's still three vs thousands. And that's not taking into account the astronomical rate of upgrading the Reapers are capable of now that they've been freed from the shackles of the cycle.

That's why I'm not going to say it's a game changer. I do grant that the a Leviathan is... not more powerful than a Reaper, but capable of defeating one. Turning it off, killing it, enslaving it, it's all based on what we see in the DLC. And it's able to do it in a matter of seconds. 

And I'm not talking about the post-war world, I'm talking about the war itself. It's not going to be a game changer as I said, but it's definitely going to give us a distinct advantage.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 02 août 2013 - 09:09 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Enhanced wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

People have largely covered the scientific and nonsensical issues, however there is another makes Synthesis utterly nightmarish. All those already reaperised forces, the Husks, Banshees, Marauders and etc. They are implied to have regained a form of sentience. Imagine you were essentially a zombie abomination that ravaged people by the hundreds and brutally tore them apart. Better even, remember the Asari with PTSD? How her captain became a banshee and tortured a fifteen year old girl and her family?

Suddenly, you remember everything. The anguish and pain you have inflicted, and monstrosity you have become. Even a hybrid mind is not capable of absorbing the severity of such a revelation and likely to be driven into madness all over again. Synthesis is torture beyond words to Reaperised "people."

The one husk stops and looks up into the sky.  That's not much of an implication that they all regain sentience and remember everything. But, if that does really happen, who are you to decide they shouldn't get to live?

I am the one who decides. And I decided they don't get to live. 

[CrutchCricket]

Fandango9641 wrote...
Which is to make the case for what exactly? Xenophobia is a form of prejudice and choosing to believe that organics and synthetics are incapable of coexisting peacefully (and on insufficient evidence) is explicitly racist. So no (and to go back to Ieldra's post) I cannot and will not 'accept the problem'. Why should I?

Yeah nowhere in Ieldra's post was teh phrase "organics and synthetics cannot coexist" ever uttered.

There's a difference between that and "organics may never fully understand the synthetic point of view and vice versa". That is entirely possible given the fundamental differences between them. Using loaded terms and being reactionary isn't going to change that.

[Iakus]

dreamgazer wrote...

What happens when a Reaper throws a temper tantrum?

SO BE IT!!!!

[teh DRUMPf!!]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Really? I thought that everything, every living thing was huskified/harvested/reaped in Synthesis permanently. Not just my cycle - every cycle that is to come.

Okay. I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion, unless the idea of organics naturally adapting tech into their systems and husks/Reapers are to be considered one-in-the-same... in which case, you should also consider post-Lazarus Shepard, Garrus, U.N.A.S. President Huerta, Kasumi, biotic life forms, and the quarians species as husks/Reapers.

There's just one problem with that, though: it's ridiculous.

And, seeing as cycles are only a concept relative to the Reapers' harvesting, there are no cycles "to come," either.

At least in Refuse, there's somebody, somewhere, at sometime to fight on. Doesn't do much to comfort me or make me feel better, but it's better than Synthesis in my opinion.

It doesn't imply synthesis either. In fact, I choose to believe that destroy did in fact happen with the next cycle. I choose to believe that the next cycle recieved their data early. So early that they didn't need the Crucible. They had their own massive anti-Reaper fleet that won the day for them.

Keep your headcanon out of mine.

I didn't say they did; I said they might.

Devs' twitter-canon even says the next cycle uses the Crucible.

Now I know the response I'm going to get: why should I believe what the devs' say? You should believe it, not because they said it, but because it's the logical thing to believe. Think -- if you're going to go to war with an enemy with an untold amount of #s, untold strength, one that you have 0 experience against before they show up in force, what is the preferred method to deal with them: a straight-up fight, or a superdevice that does all the work for you without the heavy death toll?

It is preferable to take a chance on the Crucible. It "failed" one time (not really, someone was just too stupid to use it). Didn't work? Then make it work. If just one failure makes something "impossible," then Edison never invented the lightbulb.

Conventional warfare, on the other hand, failed everytime and has never been remotely close.

To say nothing of the ridiculous amount of luck required for the next cycle to even have a chance, we don't have any reason to believe they can/will stop the Reapers outside of one strategy, so you're back to square-one. Now it's someone else's decision instead, and there's no guarantee they pick Destroy (in some endings, only Control is an option).

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

But then, HYR called me a neo-luddite this morning for liking things like nature and books.

Actually, it had more to do with denouncing advances like the internet(!) over trivial matters like social skills.

If you hate the supposed disconnect of our society and value talking to strangers so much, why are you here?

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 02 août 2013 - 09:15 .

[spirosz]

dreamgazer wrote...

What happens when a Reaper throws a temper tantrum?

Just ask it to borrow one of Cyclops' glasses.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Really? I thought that everything, every living thing was huskified/harvested/reaped in Synthesis permanently. Not just my cycle - every cycle that is to come.

Okay. I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion, unless the idea of organics naturally adapting tech into their systems and husks/Reapers are to be considered one-in-the-same... in which case, you should also consider post-Lazarus Shepard, Garrus, U.N.A.S. President Huerta, Kasumi, biotic life forms, and the quarians species as husks/Reapers.

There's just one problem with that, though: it's ridiculous.

And, seeing as cycles are only a concept relative to the Reapers' harvesting, there are no cycles "to come," either.

Actually, I think that organics introducing tech to their own bodies is different than anything the Reapers do. Much different. None of your examples are of Reaper tech. That's a lot different than Reaper tech.

And it's not ridiculous. Tell me where I'm wrong, objectively, with my interpretation of what Synthesis is.

And whatever the word I use, lets put it this way: I think that after Synthesis, all life that is ever to exist afterward in the Milky Way will be Reaperized. Does that work better?

At least in Refuse, there's somebody, somewhere, at sometime to fight on. Doesn't do much to comfort me or make me feel better, but it's better than Synthesis in my opinion.

It doesn't imply synthesis either. In fact, I choose to believe that destroy did in fact happen with the next cycle. I choose to believe that the next cycle recieved their data early. So early that they didn't need the Crucible. They had their own massive anti-Reaper fleet that won the day for them.

Keep your headcanon out of mine.

I didn't say they did; I said they might.

Devs' twitter-canon even says the next cycle uses the Crucible.

Now I know the response I'm going to get: why should I believe what the devs' say? You should believe it, not because they said it, but because it's the logical thing to believe. Think -- if you're going to go to war with an enemy with an untold amount of #s, untold strength, one that you have 0 experience against before they show up in force, what is the preferred method to deal with them: a straight-up fight, or a superdevice that does all the work for you without the heavy death toll?

It is preferable to take a chance on the Crucible. It "failed" one time (not really, someone was just too stupid to use it). Didn't work? Then make it work. If just one failure makes something "impossible," then Edison never invented the lightbulb.

Conventional warfare, on the other hand, failed everytime and has never been remotely close.

To say nothing of the ridiculous amount of luck required for the next cycle to even have a chance, we don't have any reason to believe they can/will stop the Reapers outside of one strategy, so you're back to square-one. Now it's someone else's decision instead, and there's no guarantee they pick Destroy (in some endings, only Control is an option).

Well, seeing as we don't get specifics and it's ill-defined, I'm going to be a stubborn jackass and say that the next cycle won, conventionally, due to ample preparation time and preparedness. It'll be a long, bloody, and costly fight, but in the end, they win.

Headcanon wins the day.

[Ruadh]

Are there any actual legit, in game examples of synthesis being a good thing. When synthesisers are citing positives, all I seem to read is exaggerated claims courtesy of headcanon land. eg 'That one husk stopped and looked up, therefore, every Reaper troop is now alive and previous mind returned.'

Those humans/guns attached to cannibals arms are gonna have a brah time.

Humans and Batarians, finally coexisting. As siamese twins apparently.